This and That: NHK Trophy

[skylark]

Sugarpova;1308213]this reminded me of Jenny's comment not Dave
Not exactly referring to this podcast (that I admit I didnt fully watch) but I watched the Rostelecom one & I was surprised at the copmment (moment of the week) that they liked seeing all the shade in the stands (meaning Max & Yulia & other skaters that watched on)
I was surprised b/c I def didnt interpret it like that. They were supporting their teammates first & foremost (like Max rooted for S/K or Julia for Lenok) & whitnessing a wonderful big skating event with international stars. Kovtun seemed to just not to give a damn & makeout with his gf
I guess its in the eyes of the beholder tho If you want to see shade you will eventually see it I guess/

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I really wondered what they were talking about. I didn't see anyone in the stands acting in a casual or disrespectful manner (urban dictionary definition of shade, which I figure must be the way D/J use the term). Oh wait, maybe I thought Kovtun, whose skating I like very much by the way, was a bit show-offy; he must have known cameras would pick him out. But I didn't think twice about it.

I thought Dave and Jenny might have been talking about the audience members who were shown reacting to Alaine Chartrand's chain of falls. But I didn't see it as disrespectful or casual at all; it seemed to me that they were feeling both shocked and empathetic.

In fact, I particularly noticed that when Evgenia fell, the camera showed Adelina in the audience looking away and feeling pained. I noticed it because I always do that when I see a skater fall: involuntarily wince and close my eyes or look away. Could that be what they meant by shade?

So, does anyone else have ideas about what Dave and Jenny meant by shade? This is not ironic or a question with an agenda, I'm just curious and puzzled.

 

[Ophelia]

My only comment on the whole "Jenny was out of line for laughing at Anna's performance" scandal is that, well, Jenny Kirk probably has far more experience with bad performances on the international stage than anyone here does. I can't recall watching her skates or what they consisted of, but at both of her trips to Worlds she placed 17th and 18th. I'm going to assume they were disasters, and so maybe Jenny is able to have some perspective and laugh at disasters in retrospect, which impacts the lack of seriousness she has for other disasters that don't result in injuries. Because she knows that in the long run it isn't a huge deal.

That shade.

 

[andromache]

That shade.

Lol the funny thing is that I love Dave and Jenny. I'm not even trying to throw shade...just being realistic about that fact that Jenny has experienced some of what she's laughing at, and I'm sure she's able to laugh at some of her experiences in retrospect. It's negative, sure, but not necessarily mean-spirited.

 

[fallingsk8er]

Jenny and Dave are the best. they should be on TV with Tara Lipinski and Terry Gannon.

 

[Plisskin]

This thread has turned way more mean spirited than the supposed "mean" comments towards Anna.

 

[StitchMonkey]

My only comment on the whole "Jenny was out of line for laughing at Anna's performance" scandal is that, well, Jenny Kirk probably has far more experience with bad performances on the international stage than anyone here does. I can't recall watching her skates or what they consisted of, but at both of her trips to Worlds she placed 17th and 18th. I'm going to assume they were disasters, and so maybe Jenny is able to have some perspective and laugh at disasters in retrospect, which impacts the lack of seriousness she has for other disasters that don't result in injuries. Because she knows that in the long run it isn't a huge deal.

You do know that she went with Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen both times right? How much political power, or even consideration, do you think was left over for Jenny? Honesty it does not seem that strange for the time. The USA at the time had two very dominant skaters... they did not really need another - or at least did not seem very concerned with it. Really trying to compare the figure skating scene when Jenny skated to now is harder than comparing scores form comp to comp... it was a very very different time.

 

[Eclair]

You do know that she went with Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen both times right? How much political power, or even consideration, do you think was left over for Jenny? Honesty it does not seem that strange for the time. The USA at the time had two very dominant skaters... they did not really need another - or at least did not seem very concerned with it. Really trying to compare the figure skating scene when Jenny skated to now is harder than comparing scores form comp to comp... it was a very very different time.

I think not having political backup is an excuse that only takes you so far If she had skated with great technical diffulty and rocked it, she'd have placed better even with Michelle and Sasha being there. Therefore assuming she made some sort of mistakes is not so far fetched..
If political backup was everything, then how do we explain skaters from no name federations, like Javier, Joubert, Dennis Ten, Yuna Kim, Misha Ge etc.?

 

[andromache]

You do know that she went with Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen both times right? How much political power, or even consideration, do you think was left over for Jenny? Honesty it does not seem that strange for the time. The USA at the time had two very dominant skaters... they did not really need another - or at least did not seem very concerned with it. Really trying to compare the figure skating scene when Jenny skated to now is harder than comparing scores form comp to comp... it was a very very different time.

That wasn't my intention with my post. Regardless of political clout, other US skaters, etc....the point is that Jenny Kirk has probably had some disaster skates (most skaters do sometime during their careers) and thus has more perspective than any of us about being able to laugh at those moments. That's the only point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to justify Jenny's comment about Anna or agree with it (I too found it in a little bad taste), just another perspective to consider.

 

[WeakAnkles]

People don't even understand what political correctness ("PC") actually means, or even use it in a sentence correctly, but use it disparagingly just because someone dared ruined their fun or actually confronted them about the impact of one's actions/words. It really lost all meaning due to misapplication. I also like the irony of the self-gratification that happens when they applaud someone for being outspoken and "telling it like it is" or some variation of unfiltered yet want people who criticize what is being said to shut up. It's not the "telling it like it is" that people really like, but the mean-spiritedness and not having to worry about how other people take what is being said. It's like with how Lease often keeps trying to find some nasty motive or finding a catty side to people (like his comment about Tanith being very PR-trained regarding her comment about Igor and Marina) rather than maybe accept not everyone is a cat ready to pounce with his claws out. Not to say they're always virtuous and good (everyone has moments and dark thoughts), but not everyone has that as their default. Being mean or saying something in the shadiest way isn't always honest either, especially if one is aware of their persona and has an image they want to project.

Thank you. All language is loaded with bias and value judgments. The original intent of what is now called "PC" was to point these biases and value judgments out. Of course some people will take the aim too far--that's human nature. But I'm all for applauding the intent.

As for the rest of this comment, sorry but I respectfully disagree. The same way that people can find "PC run amok" wherever they want, people can also find "cattiness" and "mean-spiritedness." It gets old real fast.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I think not having political backup is an excuse that only takes you so far If she had skated with great technical diffulty and rocked it, she'd have placed better even with Michelle and Sasha being there. Therefore assuming she made some sort of mistakes is not so far fetched..
If political backup was everything, then how do we explain skaters from no name federations, like Javier, Joubert, Dennis Ten, Yuna Kim, Misha Ge etc.?

I needed that laugh. That is not how it worked back then. Jenny could have landed a quad and they likely will would have found a way to put Michelle and possibly Sasha over her. People still get still get their panties in a wad for Tara beating Michelle, and Tara was reigning world champion and a former US National champ. The backlash to Jenny beating Michelle would have been on par with... you I am not going to name other skaters and backlash... pick your favorite. In fact it was not that long ago where this forum was talking about the audience being upset at Sasha beating Jenny at Skate America one year.

That wasn't my intention with my post. Regardless of political clout, other US skaters, etc....the point is that Jenny Kirk has probably had some disaster skates (most skaters do sometime during their careers) and thus has more perspective than any of us about being able to laugh at those moments. That's the only point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to justify Jenny's comment about Anna or agree with it (I too found it in a little bad taste), just another perspective to consider.

Fair enough. It just can get weird given the vase differing perspective on here in terms of experience. I agree I am sure Jenny has some great disasters that she could laugh with us at... but I don't think her placements at worlds should be used to assume those skates were disasters. Also I guessed some people may not know who Jenny was up against when she skated.

Also, I think Jenny has compared Anna to herself in that regard. I.e. that they were/are great skaters that if they were in almost any country other than the one they are in.. they would be Nationals champs. But they just had the weird luck to have more than one fellow countrymen that were among the best if not the best in the world. Honestly, Jenny probably knows more about how Anna feels than than 99.9999% of the world. My guess is they would have a lot to commiserate over.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I really doubt lack of political backing was the reason why Jenny placed 17th and 18th at Worlds. The third U.S. lady usually did pretty well even during Kwan's dominant period and with enough good performances would become a real threat. In 2001, the third U.S. lady placed third behind Slutskaya and Kwan in the short program at Worlds. In 2002, the third U.S. lady won the Olympics. Even if you call Sasha the third U.S. lady in 2002, she was poised to win a medal there. It's not as if all Kwan did was show up and was handed the title. Every nationals was a real fight and Sasha or other skaters could have taken advantage if they skated on fire and with great technical content. And Kwan wasn't doing the GP during her later years, so the other U.S. skaters had ample opportunity to gain real international credibility. As for Jenny, she did win Junior Worlds. It just never materialized into a top-tier career for one reason or another (probably because of COP and injuries and what-not). Her career was still worthy of respect with some successes.

 

[Mathman]

Jennifer had really bad luck in her three trips to worlds. The first time (2002) IIRC she was a last minute replacement for Sarah Hughes, and she was under great personal stress due to the death of her mother. She was forced to withdraw after the short program (I'm not sure exactly why -- injury?).

I believe that the next time (2004) she was sick throughout the competition and finished way back in the pack.

My memory is a little fuzzy here, but by the time of her third appearance (2005) her eating disorder problems were overtaking her. She retired shortly thereafter, even though she had a good chance of making the Olympic team. She said later that she felt like she was killing herself by continuing in the sport.

Please correct these memories if I have some details wrong.

 

[Plisskin]

Jennifer had really bad luck in her three trips to worlds. The first time (2002) IIRC she was a last minute replacement for Sarah Hughes, and she was under great personal stress due to the death of her mother. She was forced to withdraw after the short program (I'm not sure exactly why -- injury?).

I believe that the next time (2004) she was sick throughout the competition and finished way back in the pack.

My memory is a little fuzzy here, but by the time of her third appearance (2005) her eating disorder problems were overtaking her. She retired shortly thereafter, even though she had a good chance of making the Olympic team. She said later that she felt like she was killing herself by continuing in the sport.

Please correct these memories if I have some details wrong.

Yeah, that's how I remember it. She talks about her eating disorder and death of her mother here: http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-33-jennifer-kirk/

It's kind of funny because I this very forum there is an old thread from 04 where posters are talking about her being constantly injured and withdrawal from Worlds: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?7053-Jennifer-Kirk
It's a shame that she didn't achieve more because she was a great skater. But I guess that can be said about a lot of skaters unfortunately.

 

[Mathman]

As for the rest of this comment, sorry but I respectfully disagree. The same way that people can find "PC run amok" wherever they want, people can also find "cattiness" and "mean-spiritedness." It gets old real fast.

In terms of U.S. politics, "PC," whatever it's original intent, has become a rallying cry for demagogues who profit from stirring up hatred toward various dispossessed and marginalized segments of the population. Politicians brag that they are "not PC" because they despise Hispanics, LGBT, Muslims, disabled people, Black protesters, you name it. If you call them on it, they say, "I'm not PC. I tell it like it is. You voters hate these groups, too, but you are afraid to say so."

To me, the issue that the term raises is one of social maturity. Some people never learn the social skill of imagining themselves in the situation of someone else. They are incapable of understanding the Golden Rule. People on the autism spectrum have a severe form of this malady.

(That's what I think, anyway.)

 

[Rissa]

I needed that laugh. That is not how it worked back then. Jenny could have landed a quad and they likely will would have found a way to put Michelle and possibly Sasha over her. People still get still get their panties in a wad for Tara beating Michelle, and Tara was reigning world champion and a former US National champ. The backlash to Jenny beating Michelle would have been on par with... you I am not going to name other skaters and backlash... pick your favorite. In fact it was not that long ago where this forum was talking about the audience being upset at Sasha beating Jenny at Skate America one year.

Andromache didn't say Jenny would have placed better than Michelle or Sasha if she had skated better, but that she would have placed better than she did, better than 17, even with the other two skaters in the competition.

 

[Plisskin]

With Jenny being injured and struggling with an eating disorder at that time, it's not a surprise that she placed where she did. She had bad luck each time she went to Worlds.

 

[andromache]

To be fair, I did watch Jenny's 2005 Worlds LP on YouTube. A weak skate, but not an Anna Pogo disaster. Not sure about her other performances. Anyway, the point still stands that Jenny has far more perspective on laughing at disappointing performances than any of us here do.

Speaking of laughing at falls, wasn't there a thread not long ago specifically for posting our "favorite" wonky falls?

I like Anna and I wish she skated better at NHK, in part because I think no matter how much she brings it at Nationals the federation won't trust her on the Worlds team. Which is a shame, as I enjoy her performances when she's on and I love underdogs. But I can admit her falls are RIDICULOUS.

 

[penguin]

Uh, this whole Jenny detour is unnecessary, yes?

(1) Nobody should have to prove they're a good skater to have valid opinions on skaters.
(2) Jenny's competitive history isn't in question here.
(3) Anybody can like/dislike what Jenny says as a commentator without it having anything to do with how she was as a skater.

 

[ice coverage]

I think that laughing at a very recent fall that happened just a day or two ago is quite different from laughing at one that happened weeks/months/years ago.

In a USFS video about embarrassing moments, Josh Farris smiled as he recalled one of his own big falls from long ago, and then commented something like, "It's funny now. But it wasn't funny then."

 

[TheGrandSophy]

You know when Dave said in the first of these threads for SC, 'Jenny is weary of message boards from her competitive days, but I may be able to get her to post on here if we are having fun'? Yeah, well, I think somehow she won't be popping in... :

Anyway, back on topic... I thought the points made in the recap about run throughs was interesting. Does anyone else think they can identify the skaters like this?