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Well many of them are judges. My point is many people who work or involve in professional judging or coaching actually don't watch all programs they could.
Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons
- Thread starter MaiKatze
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Out of curiosity, just to nitpick, where are you/what level of coaches and judges are you talking about that many of the coaches are judges?
ISU judges need to be "eligible persons" just like skaters. Until fairly recently, that meant amateurs -- no income from skating-related activities.
More recently skaters are allowed to coach and still maintain eligibility.
However, according to current ISU rule 102.4.b, "Paid employees of ISU Members and their affiliated clubs, and remunerated Coaches, may not be a Referee, Assistant Referee, Technical Controller, Judge..."
Within US Figure Skating, judges are not allowed to coach except 1) in learn-to-skate programs, skaters who have not passed pre-preliminary or higher USFS tests, or 2) if they're full-time college students.
I don't know other countries' rules, but there are no international judges who are also full-time coaches.
Coaches are allowed to become technical specialists (or technical specialists are allowed to coach, whichever way you want to look at it).
ISI competitions use coaches as judges. This is a recreational program completely separate from the ISU and its member federations that uses their own set of rules.
Are you referring to coaches who are tech specialists not judges, or coaches who judge ISI competitions?
Now this is very true.
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I referred to both. As I have talked with several of them about some programs, about why the level were called as such, and several of them did not watch the programs of top skaters as much as many fan here. But of course, once they give out their advice or their comments, usually they're on point.
Yes, I would expect coaches who are also technical specialists to see plenty of skating with their own students and the competitions that they call -- they might watch the major elite events, but no need to follow all the fall competitions or watch the same performances over and over again.
And yes, if they know their stuff they will know why a particular element was called the way it was.
As for coaches who judge in other systems that don't use IJS anyway, they might be fans of elite skating outside their work hours, they might not be. Depends on the individual. But they wouldn't be representative of elite ISU or member federation judges who would be called upon to judge elite repeated programs.
Their professional interest as TSs is in how the elements are executed technically, which can certainly vary from one performance to the next. The music is irrelevant to the technical panel tasks, so they can pay little attention to the music and therefore not have much sense of whether a skater is repeating a program. It makes no difference to how an element would be called.
And yes, if they know their stuff they will know why a particular element was called the way it was.
As for coaches who judge in other systems that don't use IJS anyway, they might be fans of elite skating outside their work hours, they might not be. Depends on the individual. But they wouldn't be representative of elite ISU or member federation judges who would be called upon to judge elite repeated programs.
Their professional interest as TSs is in how the elements are executed technically, which can certainly vary from one performance to the next. The music is irrelevant to the technical panel tasks, so they can pay little attention to the music and therefore not have much sense of whether a skater is repeating a program. It makes no difference to how an element would be called.
Hanyu is one of my few favs so I have to admit that I was a little sad to see him repeat but what can you do. At least it's my favorite lp from Hanyu. I was glad Javi didn't repeat last year's lp but I don't see me getting into his new one either. Hopefully Chan has something new that I love.
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no way for me to know if you will love it or not... but in case you missed it, indeed Chan has 2 new programs this year.
Regarding Yuzu, we saw both the pros and cons of repeating programs this weekend.
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Think that's a great choice by Chan, by the way. He gets to show even more of his artistry, at what is likely his last Olympics. Nothing but respect.
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The season is still young. Chan's SP is wow. I really love the long too but a lot of criticism from people who do not see much differentiation in the short and long. Love his programs though.
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Indeed, artistry like Chan's does not come around very often. We are lucky to have two new programs from him this year. A lot of people are critical about the similarity in the tone of the long and short but those same critics also wish they could see Patrick skate to pieces of music that they clearly wished he would be skating to.
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Not a scandal at all. A program belongs to a skater and they have paid for it and made it their own. Michelle Kwan repeated her Rachmaninoff short at the 2002 Olympics and that was choreographed by Lori while she was still with Frank and I cannot think of a more perplexing skater and coach separation than that (what really happened eh). Interestingly, Frank was talking about how he found that music for Michelle but that program was eerily similar to a beautiful Rachmaninoff short by Christopher Bowman who was previously a pupil of Frank Carroll's.
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His Chopin is a masterpiece. 3x in a 5 year span is a bit much. I actually really enjoyed his Prince short program. It gave him a different dimension and made him lively out there. I was hoping he would do something up tempo again but it is Chopin, kind of hard to go wrong with it. I wish Javi had saved his Malagueña short for the Olympic year, it is a work of art. Pulling a Petrenko and using a program 3 years in a row is a bit much though. But some programs are so special that they deserve to be seen again by the world. I do, however, think that in terms of marking, a repeat program needs to be considered a factor.
Is there a single piece of evidence to support the assertion that repeating programs hurts your scores? I don't think so.
Should it? On one hand, it does represent less work put in on the skater's part. But if you believe that skaters should be judged by what they put out right then and there, then it would be unfair to factor in what they skated to in the past...
Should it? On one hand, it does represent less work put in on the skater's part. But if you believe that skaters should be judged by what they put out right then and there, then it would be unfair to factor in what they skated to in the past...
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This is the crux of the matter. Olympics is an event that epitomizes that in the moment, once-in-a-lifetime performance. Bring your best. That could mean something different to every skater.
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Say a skater has every jump in the book and an element nobody else does, e.g. a ladies skater with a quad, or a men's skater with a (hypothetical) quad axel, and every other jump. If they have the same SP and LP, year after year, and execute it absolutely cleanly each time, with the same choreo each time, and do the same program 10 seasons in a row and meets all requirements -- knowing it's a winning program, and always technically staying ahead enough to beat others -- is this okay?
Of course not. But at present, there is no such athlete with that large margin, the closest one being Medvedeva who has two new programs.
Repeating programs is surely a disappointment for some fans, myself included, and makes me appreciate more those who have new things to show (with few exceptions, such as Polina T' SP). On the other hand, athletes compete for themselves first and foremost and their goals are surely more important for them that their fans' feeling. I do not blame them for choosing to repeat a program if they think this is what might enable them to show their best in the Olympic year. If the judges don't appreciate this trend they may give them a lower score in the appropriate PCS sections for choreo, don't they?
Okay to who?
If you are asking about the ISU then yes it is okay, as far as I know there is no rule against it
If it is about the fans then I have no idea why you are still wondering about this when some people even insulted skaters who are repeating programs. It is obvious what the fans think about repeats.
If you are asking if it is fair then I would say yes it is. A skater who does the same thing over and over has obviously stagnated and is just sitting there waiting for someone to overtake them, which will happen because it is the nature of sport and competitions. They are also opening themselves to the judge's scrutiny since they have the ability (and are backed by the rules) to dock points from their PC. No one can always stay ahead of the others without evolving and progressing so this scenario is very unlikely and if it did happen then the sport is truly dead.
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I was hypothetically speaking obviously. But in such a scenario is it okay for judges to scrutinize them more strictly, and lessen their PCS, as you say?
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When I think about it, I think the thing that bugs me so much about repeat programs from Ashley and Hanyu is the expectation they’re capable of so much more. Both do have experience with concussions but there’s almost some selfishness from me. I wanted to see Ashley skate to Game of Thrones. I’d love to see her The Feeling Begins. Remember when she desired to skate to Carmen.. she’d make a great one...
That being said I do think repeating Hip Hip Chin is a good idea. Because of her past short program difficulties and it’s certainly one of the best programs of this quad.
That being said I do think repeating Hip Hip Chin is a good idea. Because of her past short program difficulties and it’s certainly one of the best programs of this quad.
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Sadly I just didn't feel it with Ashley's repeat yesterday. Same as with Yuzuru's repeat. Kaetlyn manages to keep her repeat interesting for some reason, but that's probably because she's constantly delivering with that SP. As soon as the skater doesn't deliver it's getting really hard to get into it, because we as an audience KNOW how it looks when it is ON, when it works, when it's perfect. So even if a skater has a tiny mistake or something, for me personally that feels worse, because I've seen the programs skated to perfection before. *sigh*
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