Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Are you saying that not only he repeats programs but he repeats outfits ?

I can only hope his Seimei costume is modified - the embroidery was nice but it looked rather clunky/boxy... the Chopin costume was lovely though.

 

[skylark]

:agree: Yuzuru stated all of this beautifully. .... It's important also to remember that not every skater will feel that way, .... It's individual; and that's perfectly fine. It makes the field richer to have a variety of skating philosophies and desires represented.
..... I think we're lucky.

I have to add here that a third way of giving so much through skating is the specialty of most of my favorites: giving performances from the heart and soul that make audiences feel something and share a connection. Whether the programs are newly minted, repeated, reworked, recut, or reimagined ....

Ashley Adam Javier Jason Julia Ashley Cain/ Timothy LeDuc Gabriella/ Guillaume .... to name but a few.

 

[frida80]

Maybe we should revive the compulsory dance but put it into single skating. Everyone skates the same program to the same music with the same steps and same jumps, so the focus can be on who masters the tech and interprets the music the best.

I remember when they had that in gymnastics. Boring as... God no.

 

[narcissa]

(Gracie, for example, said once that repeating her SP from the Sochi year, even though she'd only done it for half that season, made her feel that she'd already done that, and wasn't going forward).

I think she said, specifically, that she had already reached the pinnacle that she could with that program...which, tbf, was also the impression I got from Grieg, because it was so magical at Nationals and then the Olympics, and then it never reached that level again. Understandably, because what could be more magical than skating it clean at Nationals and breaking a record on your way to your first title and Olympic team, and then skating it clean(ish) at the Olympics? It's funny because I ended up subconsciously associating that red dress with the magic of Grieg and the navy one as the phone-in version, although that season was a bit of a phone-in season for Gracie in general.

 

[MarinHondas]

I'm bummed if Ashley really does use Moulin Rouge for a third time. (I loved her first two times, but when she repeated it the first time, I really did believe there was more to mine artistically out of the program. I don't feel that way now.)

anyone else feel like the reason Ashley is re using both of those programs is because she is trying to re-crete her worlds 2016 moment at the Olympics? eh im probably wrong anyways I love both the programs and I think she'll find a way to make them different than in 2016. best of luck to her!

 

[skylark]

I think she said, specifically, that she had already reached the pinnacle that she could with that program...

You heard what you heard. I must have heard her speaking on a different occasion. I specifically remember her saying it felt like last season's "news" and like she wasn't going forward.

.which, tbf, was also the impression I got from Grieg, because it was so magical at Nationals and then the Olympics, and then it never reached that level again. Understandably, because what could be more magical than skating it clean at Nationals and breaking a record on your way to your first title and Olympic team, and then skating it clean(ish) at the Olympics? It's funny because I ended up subconsciously associating that red dress with the magic of Grieg and the navy one as the phone-in version, although that season was a bit of a phone-in season for Gracie in general.

I couldn't agree more! The blue dress always seemed like "hunh?" to me. Just wrong. But occasionally I'll re-watch her Nationals SP with the red dress; and it's magical every time. I thought the Grieg piece was the perfect music for her and thought I wanted to see her repeat it. But what I was feeling with the magic not being there was probably her own ambivalence about repeating it.

 

[skylark]

anyone else feel like the reason Ashley is re using both of those programs is because she is trying to re-crete her worlds 2016 moment at the Olympics? eh im probably wrong anyways I love both the programs and I think she'll find a way to make them different than in 2016. best of luck to her!

In a word, no. I'll re-post this link in which Ashley talks about the long-term effects of her concussions:

"The concussions definitely rewired my brain in the way that I process information. My short-term memory is not that incredible; talking to me is a little bit like talking to Dory from "Finding Nemo" [laughing]. It's really affected me in the way that I learn programs because you have to memorize this choreography and the choreography is very intricate. So for me, retraining my brain to be able to learn choreography and be able to remember it, that's probably my biggest challenge." http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...lks-concussions-costumes-collisions-body-2017​

I agree with you that Ashley will find a way to go deeper, re-imagine, and make her programs something brilliant.

I'll repeat also: she's made no announcement about changing her LP from La La Land to Moulin Rouge. Maybe she skated MR as her LP at Champs Camp, which caused TSL to tweet what they did. I'm now thinking that she and her team decided to take more time to work through their impulses, go through a process of analysis, take as much time as they need to make the decision.

 

[crazydreamer]

Ashley's artistic image is the main thing sh has going for her, and I think reusing a program for the third time does damage to that image.

Plus I think it will be harder for the judges to get invested in a program they've seen now dozens of times.

 

[formersk8ter]

anyone else feel like the reason Ashley is re using both of those programs is because she is trying to re-crete her worlds 2016 moment at the Olympics?

Yes.

 

[Eclair]

Noooo way .... thank goodness he didn't. Otherwise than I'd have to deduct PCS 3 points just for that lavender pants costume.

(Someone better stop me now. Can't take another 10 pages explanation on why Yuzu shouldn't receive deduction for that pastel native american psychedelic dressup for that funk n' roll program. Superb 3A moment though.)

Omg OS don't tell me you don't like the Let's go crazy program :eeking: Out of all his programs, this is my favorite program of Hanyu! I didn't get it and disliked it at the beginning, but at GPF I was totally smitten! The footwork sequence at full speed, the mimics and expressions
link to GPF especially for you to change your opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08m9CebBBF4

So the referee could look up what they listed last year and this year and see whether they're the same, apply a deduction before the skater ever takes the ice if they are.

However, sometimes the information submitted to the ISU website is incorrect. The skater might have updated it later. That might mean that this year's music is listed as last year's on the website even though the skater has changed music since they last updated the site. Or it's listed as something new when in fact the skater changed their mind since submitting to the site and went back to an old program.

Also sometimes the short and long programs are listed in the wrong spots.

And sometimes the skater might list partial information about the music one year and then add more/better information about the same music the next year.

Or list the same source of the music for both years, but in fact they're using completely different songs from the same musical or movie soundtrack etc. this year than they used last year.

If the music isn't familiar or if the way it's listed on the ISU website is different from the title by which this judge recognizes that music, they still may not be sure.

The skater may list a movie soundtrack when they're using a specific song or other piece of music that existed under its own name long before the movie was made. Or list the title of an aria when the judge only knows the name of the opera it comes from, or vice versa. Etc.

And remember, not all skaters speak English at all. Not all judges who do recognize a piece of music know it by the same title as the skater does.

So just relying on what's listed online will often be inaccurate. And unless last year's program was especially memorable or familiar, we can't count on the referee (or whoever) to hear this year's music once the skater actually performs it and realize "Hey, that's not what was listed on the website!"

I see the problem with ISU databanks. If that's the case, then it could be based on skaters giving the information themselves. If they are going to repeat a program, they must notify the referee on site or ISU beforehand. If they repeat a program and didn't notify anyone beforehand, it's a light form of deception and there could be some kind of penalty - like a drop in world rankings or just a mandatory deduction at the next competition. It doesn't have to be some super severe punishment, as I assume that no skater wants to get the spotlight for trying to decept ISU. Also, I assume this system will work pretty effectively, as they are pretty sure going to be found out one way or the other. We're talking about top 5/ top ten finishers here.

When? They don't hear what the skater is skating to this year until the program starts. They put their component scores into the computer immediately after the program ends while the tech panel is reviewing elements, or some judges might even put them in while the program is still in progress. Within minutes, the scores are finalized.

And we certainly don't want the judges to have access to the Internet on the judges' stand while they're judging. That would open up so many cans of worms unrelated to music repeats.

You're right on that. Judges should definitely not have access to the Internet when they're judging and definitely shouldn't be looking up rankings or past scores at that moment!

Should judges each attend the practices where the skaters' music is played (regardless of whether the skater actually performs the program at the time) and make mental notes about what the music is this year, and then go back to the hotel and look up last year's programs?
They're not allowed to bring written notes about the skaters to the judges' stand. So they would have to rely on memory.

See above, as this wouldn't be necessary if skaters have to notify them themselves.

Some skaters have signature elements that fans expect to see from them, with variations if possible, in every program. Especially casual fans who only watch once a year or once every 4 years and remember specific skaters as "the guy with the [insert move here]"

"Variety" is one of the criteria for the Transitions component. So if a skater keeps using the same transitional move many times in the same program at the expense of not using other kinds of moves, they'll suffer for the overuse there, and possibly under Composition as well. (Or be rewarded under Composition if repeating different variations on spirals or spread eagles or split jumps throughout the program helps tie it together thematically.)

Similarly, if the moves enhance the music and the choreography they can be rewarded under Composition, under Interpretation, under element GOEs. If the moves have nothing to do with the music, they won't get those rewards and might suffer in the CO and IN scores accordingly.

There's certainly no way for judges to keep track whether any of the highlight moves the skater performs tonight is an exact repeat from last night's SP or last year's program unless it was especially memorable (for good or for bad reasons), and the judge actually watched the previous performance(s).

I do agree that penalizing choosing a different music to the same choreography is very difficult to realize and a solution is harder. It feels wrong and unfair though and I think it's not impossible to find a solution to this.

 

[OS]

Omg OS don't tell me you don't like the Let's go crazy program :eeking: Out of all his programs, this is my favorite program of Hanyu! I didn't get it and disliked it at the beginning, but at GPF I was totally smitten! The footwork sequence at full speed, the mimics and expressions
link to GPF especially for you to change your opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08m9CebBBF4

Oh I was crazy about it when I first heard he was going to do it, watched it first time then not so much, then crazy again towards season end! Hitting the 3A on that moment blows the roof off.
If the worst thing I can possibly say about a program is the costume, he is doing pretty alright!!

I am a huge fan of Hanyu and teasing his sometimes inflated PCS (when everyone's PCS are inflated these days, just Patrick to a lesser degree when mens are nothing compares to the ladies inflation) is part of the fun scrutinizing the COP that is full of holes...
The defense of his previous experimental programs not well received as the reason he going back to previous repeated successful programs seems rather redundant. Given they have nevertheless brought him great successes despite the risks hence justifies some of the PCS. Seimei was an experiment too back then! Hence justifies the PCS.

I thought I'd add. Out of all the Russian Skaters, I enjoy Julia's efforts the most, despite they may not have all paid off. She has yet to repeat a program and her choreography do vary season to season which makes it harder. She doesn't do safe and keep trying with different choreographers and consistently try new things, unafraid to be original and playful. Too bad tech failed her post-Sochi, or more precisely Russia Fed decides to play new favorites due to whatever. These programs were nevertheless honorable efforts of a struggling buddying young artist. That Kill bill program was ace and the Elvis Presley program was fun and devilishly sly.

 

[xeyra]

I was curious about the idea of whether judges have seen programs over and over again, so I took the more glaring cases of upcoming 3-peats (Ashley's unconfirmed Moulin Rouge FS and Yuzuru's Chopin SP) and did some useless research in order to ascertain whether judges have indeed seen these programs countless times (or at least judged it) and this is the result:

NIFTY TABLE

The table shows the number of individual judges, the number of judges who saw a program more than once in each season and the number of judges who saw a program more than once across seasons.

As the data points out, around 15% of judges have seen/judged a program more than once. About 10% of those have judged these programs twice and a smaller percentage have judged them 3 times across seasons (4-5%). Despite the difference in number of judges (Ashley did two competitions more than Yuzuru across the two seasons), the percentages remain pretty similar.

A few curious notes:

China seems to send about the same 2-3 judges to competitions, so they tend to see repeats quite often. Of the 4 individual judges for Ashley and 3 for Yuzuru, two of the judges saw both programs at least twice.

Ashley had one judge each from France, Japan and Russia sit on the panel for her Moulin Rouge FS three times across both seasons she used it. Yuzuru had one judge from Canada and TWO from China judge his Chopin SP three times.

A Russian judge actually saw different versions of Yuzuru's Chopin SP, since they judged him in both GPFs and the layout of the program changed.

Sadly, it's impossible to determine whether watching a program 2-3 times affected the way the judges saw and scored that program, since only starting last season did judging stop being anonymous, I believe?

Edit: And of course, there's always the possibility some of these judges will be seeing these programs again, depending on who is selected to judge each upcoming event.

Edit 2: To clarify, this is just nifty data on judges who've sat on the panels in competitions where these programs were skated and judged them. It doesn't show how many times judges have actually SEEN the program outside of the instances where they judged them in competition.

 

[Violet Bliss]

xeyra, that's a commendable effort :thumbsup: I was too lazy to put out to argue against the obviously exaggerated claim of judges having seen some programs dozens of times, unless, of course, if a judge is an avid fan who watches a performance repeatedly online.

However, I do have a couple of questions re the data. 1) Since the judges were anonymous before the last season, how did you decide which judges had indeed judged the same program more than once? 2) As you can see, I asked about judges who had judged the repeat programs, not about them having seen the programs, live, of course. It is highly likely that someone who judges one of the two programs at a competition will see both the SP and LP performances, plus possibly the official practices. In fact, most judges, from all disciplines, will likely want to watch the top skaters perform at the event they are judging.

Nonetheless, form your research, I can see indeed only a few judges, up to about 10%, have judged some of these repeat programs multiple times. And it's possible some of them will judge a program the 4th time, 4-peat judging of a 4-peat performance. No telling how many times they may have seen the program performed though.

 

[xeyra]

xeyra, that's a commendable effort :thumbsup: I was too lazy to put out to argue against the obviously exaggerated claim of judges having seen some programs dozens of times, unless, of course, if a judge is an avid fan who watches a performance repeatedly online.

However, I do have a couple of questions re the data. 1) Since the judges were anonymous before the last season, how did you decide which judges had indeed judged the same program more than once? 2) As you can see, I asked about judges who had judged the repeat programs, not about them having seen the programs, live, of course. It is highly likely that someone who judges one of the two programs at a competition will see both the SP and LP performances, plus possibly the official practices. In fact, most judges, from all disciplines, will likely want to watch the top skaters perform at the event they are judging.

Nonetheless, form your research, I can see indeed only a few judges, up to about 10%, have judged some of these repeat programs multiple times. And it's possible some of them will judge a program the 4th time, 4-peat judging of a 4-peat performance. No telling how many times they may have seen the program performed though.

Well, there's a list of judges for each segment per competition. Judges scores were anonymously distributed in the protocols before the past season but the name of the judges themselves wasn't anonymous. So taking the list of judges per each of the competitions (and the appropriate segment), you can see which judges sat on the panel for each of these programs. Those that didn't come with a country attached (mostly, those from World Championships) I just consulted a judges list. There were, however, two judges I couldn't identify but they didn't repeat anywhere else so I just counted them for the totals anyway.

And yeah, I don't doubt more judges than the ones who did judge these programs have seen them. Or that these particular judges didn't see these programs a few times more either. For example, I didn't include National competitions, where you have a much more specific pool of judges to draw from (who knows if all those USA judges who've sat in international panels didn't also all sit for Nationals where Ashley competed with her MR FS). And in Yuzuru's case, it's possible some judges watched the GPF Chopin due to it being the highest scored SP of the current system. And judges can be fans just as we are and see many a skaters programs they don't end up judging officially. We also don't know how many judges have sat through practice sessions and how many times. And how many judges from the SP or FS assisted the other segment with the crowd.

But from the current specific data of only the judges who have sat on panels for each specific program, the percentage who have judged these programs more than once is not particularly high.

 

[Barb]

judges are volunteers ?, right?, I guess they are fans of the sport, I do not think they only watch the programs occasionally, especially the top skaters.

 

[gkelly]

judges are volunteers ?, right?, I guess they are fans of the sport, I do not think they only watch the programs occasionally, especially the top skaters.

I'm sure it varies from one judge to another. Some might spend a lot of time watching videos of current skaters, with a focus on the top competitors. Or past competitors, if they miss the old days.

I expect they almost all watch Worlds and Olympics . . . although if they rely on TV broadcasts, they're at the mercy of what their local networks choose to show.

If they're involved in some kind of project to educate less experienced judges or to recommend rule changes or to preserve the history of the sport, they might even more time watching skating videos than most fans.

Others might be busy judging different competitions (or test sessions) at different levels, or critiquing skaters, several weeks per month, so they get their fill of live skating and don't feel the need to spend much time on the video-diluted version.

Some might be busy enough with their day jobs and their families and their other interests that they don't have much time to sit around watching skating videos.

Some might be bored and jaded by the sport lately but feel a responsibility to keep judging for their federation.

Etc. Etc.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Uh, judges are definitely paid. They start out as volunteers for testing and low level competitions and it's quite an arduous process to become one, at least in Canada. Judges won't get paid necessarily a ton but they will (eventually) get things like travel expenses covered. But the actual judging seminars aren't the most accessible. For example, the initial session to train as an Central Ontario judge is almost a 3 hour drive from the GTA. I can't imagine the costs, commitment and energy to become a national or international level judge.

Of course, one could always just attend ISU seminars and claim to have the expertise and clout of ISU judges.

 

[gkelly]

Uh, judges are definitely paid. They start out as volunteers for testing and low level competitions and it's quite an arduous process to become one, at least in Canada. Judges won't get paid necessarily a ton but they will (eventually) get things like travel expenses covered.

Oh, they get travel expenses covered as soon as they're actually judging for real and not just training to judge. And they get fed, and reimbursed for meals on the road.

At the elite levels, the travel distances might be further (around the world rather than just around the country, or a region of a large country) and sometimes to vacation spots worth exploring. The food will be better at more important competitions and alcohol will probably be provided in off hours. The hotel accommodations will usually be nicer at elite competitions. And there might be a gift of some sort from the host club to each judge.

So they might come out ahead financially on each event they judge, more than enough to make up for the expenses of training earlier in their judging careers.

But they're not paid a salary for judging -- they're not paid for their time. They need to have a day job or some other source of income, because judging does not provide any income worthy of the name.



But the actual judging seminars aren't the most accessible. For example, the initial session to train as an Central Ontario judge is almost a 3 hour drive from the GTA. I can't imagine the costs, commitment and energy to become a national or international level judge.

Of course, one could always just attend ISU seminars and claim to have the expertise and clout of ISU judges. [/QUOTE]

 

[Ender]

judges are volunteers ?, right?, I guess they are fans of the sport, I do not think they only watch the programs occasionally, especially the top skaters.

My coach doesn't watch many programs of the top skaters until I ask her about their transitions. So yeah... many don't watch.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

My coach doesn't watch many programs of the top skaters until I ask her about their transitions. So yeah... many don't watch.

Judges aren't the same as coaches though. They're different breeds of people.