2017 GP Skate America Ladies FS

[Globetrotter]

In real time the 3lo and the 3f looked UR to me and even B.ESP and Jackie Wong noticed it, and also in the SP the 3lo was suspicious.

In the combo usually her Lutz is always suspicious, it's soo flat that it looks like a double.

On top of that the GOE, why the +1 or +2?

The point is that some of these calls are so well-known, but judges have aways given her the benefit of the doubt, sometimes only for her (2016 GPF where Sotskova, Radionova and Pogorilaya got all the calls on the URs or the edge issues, but nothing for Satoko), and probably because if you start to call her URs she has no longer the scores of a top competitor.

I could have understood this in the past (actually no because this is supposed to be a sport but whatever) since she was Japan's only credible contender in ladies, but now that they have Wakaba, Mai, Kaori,...

Again, you are basing it all on a reputation of UR and assuming that everything must be combed through just due to that. Sure, we all know her jumps are no good. Unfortunately, the way the current rules are written and assessed by the TP is based on landings (nothing specified on pre-rotations) and a < is only slapped on if it is > 1/4 rotation short but less than 1/2 short. The caller here was extremely lenient and was consistently dinging only those where the < were so blatantly clear it simply couldn't be let off (e.g. Ashley's 3R in the SP and the backend of her 3T combo). Satoko simply knows how to land her jumps in a way that makes it difficult to call an < but overall judges are not dumb - notice that she receives very little GOEs. The only positive GOE bullets she get are that her jumps are always landed smoothly with good flow and nicely timed. I don't understand the +2 but I can certainly make a case for zero GOE or +1 to a very very generous judge. In SA, I do think that with a very lenient caller, enough benefit of the doubt could be given not to < (except for that bloody 3T in her SP!) but to give overall zero GOE - that is the main reason for Kaori to overall get the edge and the win, not for some witch hunt for dinging everything. If we get the tough TP in Skate Canada, I bet you that she will get dinged a lot more and Kaori will also be given ! or e on the 3Lz and both Bradie and Polina T will get < on their 2A-3T and bradie will likely also get an ! call on her Lz jumps.

But then, the judging has always been suspicious although for me, my bug bear has been on PCS rather than TES. I will never be able to get how PCS components all get roughly equalised all over when it is rather obvious that skaters have very clear differences in strengths in the various components.

 

[meem]

It's amazing how dreary music can just about ruin even a stellar athletic performance. I noticed my mind wandering during a lot of skaters' programs this past weekend due to music that, IMO, seemed to drone on & on (vocal as well as instrumental). Did anyone else notice this (or am I too demanding for wanting great, moving music all the time?) I'd prefer one of the old war horses to some of the selections of contemporary music (also have to admit I loathe vocals now, especially the breathy voiced ones).

 

[Ender]

Again, you are basing it all on a reputation of UR and assuming that everything must be combed through just due to that. Sure, we all know her jumps are no good. Unfortunately, the way the current rules are written and assessed by the TP is based on landings (nothing specified on pre-rotations) and a < is only slapped on if it is > 1/4 rotation short but less than 1/2 short. The caller here was extremely lenient and was consistently dinging only those where the < were so blatantly clear it simply couldn't be let off (e.g. Ashley's 3R in the SP and the backend of her 3T combo). Satoko simply knows how to land her jumps in a way that makes it difficult to call an < but overall judges are not dumb - notice that she receives very little GOEs. The only positive GOE bullets she get are that her jumps are always landed smoothly with good flow and nicely timed. I don't understand the +2 but I can certainly make a case for zero GOE or +1 to a very very generous judge. In SA, I do think that with a very lenient caller, enough benefit of the doubt could be given not to < (except for that bloody 3T in her SP!) but to give overall zero GOE - that is the main reason for Kaori to overall get the edge and the win, not for some witch hunt for dinging everything. If we get the tough TP in Skate Canada, I bet you that she will get dinged a lot more and Kaori will also be given ! or e on the 3Lz and both Bradie and Polina T will get < on their 2A-3T and bradie will likely also get an ! call on her Lz jumps.

But then, the judging has always been suspicious although for me, my bug bear has been on PCS rather than TES. I will never be able to get how PCS components all get roughly equalised all over when it is rather obvious that skaters have very clear differences in strengths in the various components.

If Skate Canada tech panel were here, the protocol would be like this: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

[Globetrotter]

If Skate Canada tech panel were here, the protocol would be like this: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Lol, I personally wouldn't mind. I am fine with any TP as long as they are consistent throughout, although I much prefer a consistently strict panel so that those who have good technique should get rewarded appropriately and those who try to be clever at cheating jumps will be forced to improve. Miyahara will always be a controversial case as her strengths and weaknesses are so poles apart. Her jumps have awful technique but oh boy, her non jumps and basic skating and interpretive skills are superb. I just wish people will be able to keep these separate and not just witch hunt repetitively about her by seeing only her jumps and just using that one negative to insist her scores should drop 10 points while refusing to acknowledge that her non jumps are equally deserving of praise and perhaps deserving better on the PCS.

 

[badknees]

I think she should have been, if not Ashley. She had no record to speak of. I hope the USFSA makes Ashley earn it this time. If she is 4th again, she should not be on the team.

Ashley did earn it due to her body of work. She definitely had a record to speak of. It's not just about the top three at nationals.

 

[jenaj]

Ashley did earn it due to her body of work. She definitely had a record to speak of. It's not just about the top three at nationals.

Polina is the one who had no record to speak of, not Ashley.

 

[Ender]

Lol, I personally wouldn't mind. I am fine with any TP as long as they are consistent throughout, although I much prefer a consistently strict panel so that those who have good technique should get rewarded appropriately and those who try to be clever at cheating jumps will be forced to improve. Miyahara will always be a controversial case as her strengths and weaknesses are so poles apart. Her jumps have awful technique but oh boy, her non jumps and basic skating and interpretive skills are superb. I just wish people will be able to keep these separate and not just witch hunt repetitively about her by seeing only her jumps and just using that one negative to insist her scores should drop 10 points while refusing to acknowledge that her non jumps are equally deserving of praise and perhaps deserving better on the PCS.

No one refuses Miyahara’s non-jumps elements. But you can not deny the fact she is the most benefited when tech panel doesn’t do much. It’s unfair to other ladies who have been scrutinized over their UR many years like Asada, Nagasu and etc... they automatically got called < and << almost every time they walked on the ice. Miyahara’s jumps were not better but she kept walking away from the < and <<.
It’s ridiculous when tech panel affects the podium either because of their leniency or their zealousness.

 

[leafygreens]

Ashley did earn it due to her body of work. She definitely had a record to speak of. It's not just about the top three at nationals.

This season her body of work is not near what it was in 2014. If she is 4th at nationals, she needs to stay home.

I think we have to remember that Grand Prix events are different in nature than Nationals or the Olympics. Skaters are chosen by world standings and popularity is a crucial part of it. Hosts do a lot of thinking on how to promote these events, how to get the best skaters with less expenses etc. So it's hardly about justice and equal opportunity. Ashley Wagner is probably the reason half of that crowd gathered that day on that arena. Everybody was expecting her to do well (all the talk about home cooking), she has commercial agreements and sponsorships. On top of it she was the only American who could've made it to the Final. Do you really think withdrawing from such an event without even trying is an easy decision for a skater in such a position?

And no other replacement could have done better at this point in the GP, it was going to be either Ashley, Polina or Wakaba for the Final. It makes more sense for her to at least try than to have someone skating only for the fun of it. You cannot blame her for being the most successful American in the Grand Prix circuit this season, she had the spot and tried to make the best of it instead of giving up weeks before.

These are precisely the reasons why Ashley has been held up for so long with lackluster performances. The sponsors and fed don't want to see the writing on the wall.

She has not been the most successful American this GP season. She got a bronze in the weakest field in the GP but has only the 4th highest point total among American ladies. Bradie has a bronze now as well with a 200+ score so she has by far been the most successful American in the GP.

 

[MIM]

It is true that there is no FIERCE Russian girl in this competition comparably. The FS score remained way under 150. It almost felt the clock went a few years back. But still it was the competition I most enjoyed along with the COC.

I become such a fan of Li Xiangning. She is adorable, musical, and natural. Her solo jumps are big and clean, I wish she added one or two triple-triple combination next season to be among the top!! I was very impressed by how she rides on the musical highs and lows, waits the moment to accelerate the moves, etc. Her spins are gorgeous, too. Her edges are flowy and light like a feather.

Alena has very nice 3T3T in the field. Her jumps were clean and solid, but I cannot say the same for the steps (in the second half) and the spins due to lack of stamina.
She did admirable job here but maybe not enough to be in the team...

Karen has done her best here but it was not enough. I certainly did not mind her changing back to the last year LP. but I could not even remember what her current LP was.... I hope she gains her confidence back by the nationals.

Serafima probably needs a little more time to become a real threat. She looks down during her skating. And her dress was ummmm.... unfortunate. What was the designer thinking by putting together black lattice with nude liner, and the extra thick lattice at the crotch area!!!!:shocked: TOO Bad!!! But her speed of recovering back to her best form seems incredible. With Plushy, she can create a miracle. Anything is possible for this girl if she has made this far in such a short time.

Polina has lots of potential but I don't see this is her best season so far... She is more of a talent than Zagitova and Evgenia combined... but her health and/or physique issues pull her back... sigh.... I am not fond of the program, although I like they kept a serene and mystic concept for her LP, which is different from her other teammates.

Gabby's dress and program is something I can relate to. Good intention. But she needs to skate CLEAN!!! hopefully it happens for her at the most important competition like she did last season....

Bradie was a Cinderella, literally. A little stiff in the stsq, but she has solid jumps and especially spins!!!! Looking forward to seeing where she places at the Nationals.

KAORI:luv17: is my favorite !!! She is rough around edges in the beginning, especailly miming. I can tell she is not a seasoned story teller. Please refer to Anna and Luca for a proper example at that. But, maybe because of that weakness I can see her a shy, fresh, young and cute girl. (yes I am biased), making a contrast with her amazing Patrick-esque SS and buttery/flowy jumps.

Satoko is the ultimate skater's skater. Her every moves on the ice has every purpose in the world. I am happy she is healthy and can skate clean. that is enough for me!!! Thank you Satoko!!!

 

[Shandy]

Gabby skating and makeup haters come on, show us yourself on video. How far does your triple toe travel through the air? Let's see you go in front of thousands and bare your souls.
No? Gee, I wonder why.

Following to the natural conclusion of that line of logic, why not demand to have every single judge release video of themselves skating?

 

[JustMe]

As a knowledgable skating fan with an deep understanding of the scoring system, I was somehow able to enjoy so many of these performances (both in the sp and lp) that I was able to turn-off my mental element calculator. I actually didn't even mind Serafima's crossover-filled program, nor Satoko's heightless jumps, nor Polina's program gaps, nor Kaori's miming and costume, nor Ashley's withdrawal (which worked out for me cause I've grown numb for her programs even though I wanted her to win here, lol), nor Bradie's--wait, what happened in her Disney program other than hitting her jumps? (I'll be on the lookout for moments at nationals or at 4cc or at Olympics).
Overall, I was very happy for all of these ladies, specially exited for Kaori and Satoko.

 

[leafygreens]

It is speculation in so far as it is unconfirmed by Ashley herself to be the direct reason, but considering that skaters who have not at least come forward with issues of memory retention and learning new programs are also returning to familiar choreography during an Olympic season, it is unsurprising that Ashley, who has gone on the record about her concussions and issues with learning and retaining new choreography and on-ice issues recalling choreography has returned to an old program. Since she does struggle with these issues, learning two entirely new programs from scratch in an Olympic season is obviously not the smart move, when every skater needs as much time being familiar with their choreography as possible to focus on actual performance.

source for Ashley's discussion of concussions, memory problems and choreography retention: http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...lks-concussions-costumes-collisions-body-2017

I'm aware and have read this before, but am not convinced it's why she is reusing these specific programs this year. It seems more mind-challenging to go back to two year old programs and add new choreo rather than to just re-use last year's. She has done about 25+ new programs, including exhibitions, since the 2009 concussion. Why now is it assumed that she is reusing programs because of memory problems? Until Ashley herself says this, specifically about MR and Hip Hip, I'm not going to assume it.

 

[slider11]

Well, the Olympic ladies' podium seemed fairly pre-destined....until this week? Medvedeva hurt ? , Daleman struggling with jumps, Satoko on the rebound but still showing tendency to UR, Ashley recovering from a topical infection and withdrawing in the middle of a performance.... The GP final should be very interesting to see who wants to step up!

 

[russianfan]

Disney Channel original movie idea: Two young rivals and training mates - one is better than the other, but they've always been close. Then the better one is surpassed by her training mate, and as they grow up, suddenly her training mate shoots up to the top of the field, wins the World Championships, and becomes unbeatable. The now-struggling one finds a new coach, continues to struggle, ends up basically written off by everyone around her. Then, she's taken under the wing of a former superstar, a rookie coach, and has to claw her way back up to the top, bit by bit, as the competition just keeps getting more and more difficult. Then one day she finally beats her old rival. They hug, and then everyone cries.

that was brilliant, love this post :agree:

 

[chuckm]

Polina is the one who had no record to speak of, not Ashley.

Before finishing 2nd at Senior Ladies Nationals 2014, Polina won the Junior ladies championship at Nationals 2013, then won her two JGP events in the fall of 2013 and made it to the JGPF where she finished 4th behind 3 ladies named Sotskova, Sakhanovich and Medvedeva. And she did beat both Sakhanovich and Medvedeva in the FS.

 

[SarahSynchro]

Not gonna lie I'd watch the heck outta this!

I've only watched Serafima's skate because I ran out of internet bandwidth so now I only have dial-up speed now. It wasn't as amazing as her short, but I liked her jumps. Although the ending was weird, she seemed to berating herself a bit as she headed for the Kiss and Cry, like she forgot to do something? Or maybe just skated too fast

Coachshenko warms my heart though! Hope he has a looooong coaching career!

Coachshenko! Oh god, please let that nickname stick.

 

[chuckm]

I don't think Daleman is struggling with jumps, I think her problem is fitness and stamina right now. She had abdominal surgery this summer and that had to limit her ice time to a substantial degree. Her jumps are no problem in the SP, and are OK at the beginning of the FS. But once she hits mid-FS, you can see her energy begin to flag and then come the step-outs, hands-down and pops. I was astounded to hear she's working on a 4t now. She really needs to build stamina first, then go work on the big trick.

 

[lavender]

Just watch Kaori Sakamoto again. I love Satoko...so elegant but I'm liking Kaori too. She's so cute and excited. I love her program but she needs to do something with her arms when she's not doing choreo. It's like they just kind of flap a little. It's hard to explain. I think the cute movements in the program needs to be more pronounce. I hope she continues to improve as she gets older.

 

[beki]

I don't think Daleman is struggling with jumps, I think her problem is fitness and stamina right now. She had abdominal surgery this summer and that had to limit her ice time to a substantial degree. Her jumps are no problem in the SP, and are OK at the beginning of the FS. But once she hits mid-FS, you can see her energy begin to flag and then come the step-outs, hands-down and pops. I was astounded to hear she's working on a 4t now. She really needs to build stamina first, then go work on the big trick.

I agree except for the 4T. I expected an aggressive move like that this season. She obviously has the potential to land it, and she needs it, because her current program construction doesn't have high enough base value, given the influx of new seniors and the Japanese ladies performing better than last year. With that wow factor, she'd be back in the Olympic medal conversation.

 

[labgoat]

I believe that Johnnie Weir stopped in the middle of his free skate and withdrew at his first U.S. nationals after making two mistakes.

Here is the mentioned incident https://youtu.be/EcRqOvHiJ8w