How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[Diana Delafield]

I have never understood why the Detroiter adagio pairs lift was thought to be dangerous. To me, it is a basic stationary rotational lift that no pairs team would be leery of trying.

Yulia and Josiah "Detroiter"

www.youtube.com

Like in any pairs lift it would be possible for the man to lose his balance or for the lady's core to collapse. For the one-handed version you have to make sure that your hand is at the right fulcrum point. But this is true in any pairs or dance lift.

Also, like any pairs move, we wouldn't like to see children attempt it on their own without supervision and training. But no more so than, for instance, a star lift.

Never tried that one myself (that confession has to be a first ) but I can see why it's more dangerous than the star lift, for instance. Yes, the man's hand has to be at the central balance point in any one-handed lift, but in the Detroiter he's holding the inner side of her thigh. No matter how toned her leg muscles are, that's still a wobbly part of her. In a star, his hand is gripping her hip bone and pelvis, and bone is more stable than movable soft tissue.

This is still on its way up (my husband freaked out and almost dropped the camera when three of those four hands let go at the apex ), but even at this stage it's obvious his right hand is gripping bone, not any wiggly part:

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I do agree that not every single fall leads to bruises, just majority of falls do lead to some kind of injuries (from bruises to most serious ones). I do not agree with other sentences you wrote. I will try to explain.

1) Here is video of Canadian skaters (Kaetlyn Osmond, Gabrielle Daleman, Maegan Duhamel & Erik Radford)
https://youtu.be/lNZKY3WjsrU?si=rodMxyjvDMh-9T56
Listening to what they say - even for them falling is not "safe" thing. It is painful and leads to bruises and haematomas (if you even can't sit in the car on the seat being from softer material, then you definitely don't have bruises only.)

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2012/12/08/two-falls-second-place-for-wagner-in-grand-prix-final-2/
- Ashley Wagner - “When I fall, I fall hard.”

2) Looking at science studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6204632/
- review from 2018 comparing acute and overuse injuries.

- "Ankle sprains are among the most common injuries in figure skaters, with a prevalence of greater than 50%."

Falls which results in ankle sprain cannot be described as safe, no?

- "Head injury in figure skating is a growing area of research interest. Head injuries occur most frequently in pairs skaters followed by ice dancers and singles skaters."

3) https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/fulltext/2021/05000/pediatric_and_adolescent_figure_skating_injuries_.12.aspx

- Pediatric and Adolescent Figure Skating Injuries: A 15-Year Retrospective Review in 2019
- 271 female and 23 male). Age rage: 9 to 19 years
- Approximately 68.9% were overuse and 31.1% were acute injuries (the most frequently injured body areas were foot/ankle, knee, back, hip

Over 31 percent of acute injuries from falls - is not a description of "safe" falling in my opinion.

4) I started skating at the age of 13, after passing skating exam in front of all local coaches I was accepted to the club. Thanks to it I saw practises of competive skaters of all age range (training double, few of them triple jumps).
I saw all different kind of falls on different parts of body. Some falls were "soft" like landing on feet and then slowly going down. But many were pretty harsh and painful mine including. I was never taught how to fall.

Those times one skating mom complained that doctor - paediatrician was suspicious about domestic abuse because of bruises and haematoma on her daughter's body. Both daughter and mom were explaining to the doctor that it is normal in figure skating...

5) Right now there is one patient at our Inpatient Rehabilitation - former competive skater in 70s and 80s. Her grandfather was coach and international judge, her father was in ice dancer and uncle a pair skaters. Yes, she was taught how to fall safely. But no, falls on the ice were not soft. She mentioned that ice is tough but elastic, so sometimes the falls look worse then they actually are. Many falls were painful, falling on knees was frequent, all kids had many bruises, soft tissues injuries, sprains. She never broke a bone.
She thinks all skaters have higher pain tolerance thanks to multiple falls.

One of her last quotes: "Fall is never safe. Brain gives you signals that you are not in a good position in the air or take off was not good, but you never know for sure how will you land. You may only predict."

6) Golden Skate Thread in 2018:
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/bruise-on-knees.77882/
- skating mom complaining that her daughter has many bruises on the knees
- more people confirms this is happening
- our elite skater @Ic3Rabbit :"Bruises and this sport go hand in hand."

7) There are more skaters with shoulder dislocation from falls. After first dislocation redislocations are more easy to happen. Todd Eldredge (stumble and fall), Miki Ando (at competition it happened during spin, but it couldn't be the first dislocation), Adam Rippon (fall in jump), Daniel Samohin (fall in jump), Aleksandr Selevko (fall, in 2021 and 2022), Mark Hanretty (twice - stumble and fall, during lift).

8) There are multiple examples of bad falls from competitions. I always admired skaters for their bravery to get up and continue skating after bad fall. So if I see that the skater gets up really slowly I know that it must pain terribly. No pads. Just glitters and tears, but they keep going.

I don't want to use falls from pair cathegory, I believe you didn't mean safe fall talking abou this cathegory.

Anna Pogorilaya or Jeremy Abbott were known for harsh falls. Kimmie Repond falls terribly. There are many skaters who had bad falls at competitions (I would say that every skater had some bad falls during her / his career...such bad that she / he had big trouble to get up). There more videos on YouTube Channel. When you say that falls (especially in jumps) are safe, how is it possible that they fall that badly @adhara ?

9) Skaters will hopefully forgive me to give them as an example of falls, but I would never be able to describe perfectly what is seen on the video. I am not using the worst falls. Instead I chose kind of falls which I saw many times both at practise and competitions, both at local and international events.

Miki Ando 2005 Marshalls LP - https://youtu.be/GklM1M5KnBQ?t=194
Patrick Chan 2012 World Championships LP - https://youtu.be/O32eNjbWH78?t=280
Irina Slutskaya 2006 Olympic Games LP - https://youtu.be/VZewQrj_ssk?t=264

I definitely didn't get the idea that skaters were in any way "preparing" and executing "safe" fall. Please, your opinion @adhara . Are those falls really safe in eyes of some skaters?

More than bruises. I can really only speak for myself and all of the injuries I've had in the sport, but it would never make me stop. I know others that have broken many bones, etc, and have had multiple surgeries.

 

[Mathman]

More than bruises. I can really only speak for myself and all of the injuries I've had in the sport, but it would never make me stop. I know others that have broken many bones, etc, and have had multiple surgeries.

Bottom line: Ice is slippery. Ice is hard. Skaters are tough.

 

[TallyT]

I know others that have broken many bones, etc, and have had multiple surgeries.

And won medals with them! I do think it's a sport where, as often slighter than average as many of them are and finespun, even delicate, as some of them look, @Mathman is right, they are amazingly tough.

That doesn't mean the official body shouldn't look to make the sport safer, even if 'safe' is not wholly possible.

 

[Arigato]

What do you do with taking a walk ? 20 pedestrians die each day talking a walk.

Allow walking, but only with a helmet on. It's DANGEROUS!

 

[Arigato]

 

[Mathman]

As this clip shows, a backflip has nothing to do with ice skating. It's something that you can do on dry land. Show me a clip of these sthletes doing an outside spread eagle in street shoss on a hardwood floor and I would be impressed.

 

[Mathman]

And won medals with them (sports related injuries).

On the subject of "every figure skaters falls," Michelle Kwan once said, "Have I fallen a lot in practice? I wish I had a doller for every time I fell on the ice.... Oh wait... I do."

 

[Magill]

As this clip shows, a backflip has nothing to do with ice skating. It's something that you can do on dry land. Show me a clip of these sthletes doing an outside spread eagle in street shoss on a hardwood floor and I would be impressed.

Not to defend backflip, but by this logic no jump belongs to ice skating at all as they can all be done off-ice, and in fact they are all being done off-ice daily for practice. As shown in this illustrative video below, there are some things which clearly cannot be done off-ice but no jumps are among them. So... shall we...?

 

[4everchan]

As this clip shows, a backflip has nothing to do with ice skating. It's something that you can do on dry land. Show me a clip of these sthletes doing an outside spread eagle in street shoss on a hardwood floor and I would be impressed.

this argument is disingenuous for lack of better word in my limited ESL vocabulary.. We see skaters do jumps off ice. We see skaters do lifts off ice. The twist, which is iconic in pairs skating, off ice. No, you cannot do gliding moves off ice but pretty much all the "tricks" that are essential to figure skating are done off ice.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Not to defend backflip, but by this logic no jump belongs to ice skating at all as they can all be done off-ice, and in fact they are all being done off-ice daily for practice. As shown in this illustrative video below, there are some things which clearly cannot be done off-ice but no jumps are among them. So... shall we...?

And all pairs and dance lifts can be, and are, done off the ice. That's how they're learned. I've seen couples in acrobatic gymnastics doing the same lifts stationary as balance elements in their routines. Death spirals maybe not, although some learn the initial drop that way but it's not necessary. Spins can be practised on a spinner on the floor.

 

[sisinka]

As this clip shows, a backflip has nothing to do with ice skating. It's something that you can do on dry land. Show me a clip of these sthletes doing an outside spread eagle in street shoss on a hardwood floor and I would be impressed.

Not to defend backflip, but by this logic no jump belongs to ice skating at all as they can all be done off-ice, and in fact they are all being done off-ice daily for practice. As shown in this illustrative video below, there are some things which clearly cannot be done off-ice but no jumps are among them. So... shall we...?

And all pairs and dance lifts can be, and are, done off the ice. That's how they're learned. I've seen couples in acrobatic gymnastics doing the same lifts stationary as balance elements in their routines. Death spirals maybe not, although some learn the initial drop that way but it's not necessary. Spins can be practised on a spinner on the floor.

I think Mathman is right speaking precisely.
What we see off the ice is SIMULATION of movements skaters do on the ice.

Off ice you cannot use - edges, gliding, there is different way how to centre (whole feet versus certain place on blade), speed gaining and so on... In jumps and lifts it creates completely different take off and landing.

Going into more details - also not having skates on legs means that skater is "smaller having smaller weight", which is a change for lifts / jumps. In a sport where every centimetre of height matters and skater is capable of mention even less than 200 grams of weight difference...

But some parts of the element's execution can be done perfectly - movements of upper arms, trajectory of free leg, practise of synchronization.

There many moments from backstage with top skaters warming-up doing jumps and lifts, but I do have trouble to find them.
I only found Tessa and Scott:
https://youtu.be/QfOJx5BtHkY?si=zZfL-IUhwXDJJ0gb - off the ice
https://youtu.be/dvUmWufzGAs?t=38 - on the ice

Emmanuel Sandhu and Ilia Kulik - triple axel both off and on the ice - https://youtu.be/eK_NmZyyo9w?si=isrARYQnyhJtv4i0

But of course off ice training and simulations are very important part of figure skating. As @Diana Delafield mentioned it is how some elements are learnt in the beginning.

 

[Mathman]

No, you cannot do gliding moves off ice but pretty much all the "tricks" that are essential to figure skating are done off ice.

IMHO It is that "essential to figure skating" that deserves closer attention.

There are two things that comprise the heart and soul of ice-skating: gliding and spinning. Try this experiment: do a Google image search on “figure skating” and count how many images come up of skaters gliding and spinning, compared to how many depict skaters jumping. (Although when I did it just now there was a picture of Surya Bonaly doing a backflip on the first page. ) There are also a lot of pictures of skaters just posing gracefully. This is OK, too. Spinning and gliding are good; spinning and gliding graceully – now we are on to something!

Personally, I have no beef with rotational jumps – spinning in the air a few feet above an ice surface is a natural extension of the idea of spinning on the nearly frictionless surface itself, plus a beautiful, well-controlled flowing landing edge is greatly to be admired. And rotational jumps demonstrate athletic prowess and exuberant spirit.

The other thing I like are steps and turns, whether in a dedicated step sequence or as transitions between choreographic highlights. Skaters don’t present school figures in competition any more, but an interesting parade of 3-turns, Mohawks, counters, etc., etc. – oh yeah, I’m all in.

 

[4everchan]

IMHO It is that "essential to figure skating" that deserves closer attention.

There are two things that comprise the heart and soul of ice-skating: gliding and spinning. Try this experiment: do a Google image search on “figure skating” and count how many images come up of skaters gliding and spinning, compared to how many depict skaters jumping. (Although when I did it just now there was a picture of Surya Bonaly doing a backflip on the first page. ) There are also a lot of pictures of skaters just posing gracefully. This is OK, too. Spinning and gliding are good; spinning and gliding graceully – now we are on to something!

Personally, I have no beef with rotational jumps – spinning in the air a few feet above an ice surface is a natural extension of the idea of spinning on the nearly frictionless surface itself, plus a beautiful, well-controlled flowing landing edge is greatly to be admired. And rotational jumps demonstrate athletic prowess and exuberant spirit.

The other thing I like are steps and turns, whether in a dedicated step sequence or as transitions between choreographic highlights. Skaters don’t present school figures in competition any more, but an interesting parade of 3-turns, Mohawks, counters, etc., etc. – oh yeah, I’m all in.

Maybe it's a generational thing. I find myself in between as a fan of beautiful edges and blade work...step sequences are my favourite thing in the world, especially from 20 years ago where they meant something other than just an infinite amount of turns and steps not linked really in a meaningful choreography but more linked for points... but I wouldn't watch figures for 3 hours non-stop, even if paid money to do so I like jumps. I like lifts and throws too. BUT I am not one the fans of the sport who do not recognize good skating and prefer jumpers (there are many here)... I think the fandom is diverse and that is what makes it stronger. However, the reality is that off ice training of tricks is not a real argument and no matter how we spin into another direction, it's not a proper way to d/q the backflip.

 

[Weathergal]

Maybe it's a generational thing. I find myself in between as a fan of beautiful edges and blade work...step sequences are my favourite thing in the world, especially from 20 years ago where they meant something other than just an infinite amount of turns and steps not linked really in a meaningful choreography but more linked for points... but I wouldn't watch figures for 3 hours non-stop, even if paid money to do so I like jumps. I like lifts and throws too. BUT I am not one the fans of the sport who do not recognize good skating and prefer jumpers (there are many here)... I think the fandom is diverse and that is what makes it stronger. However, the reality is that off ice training of tricks is not a real argument and no matter how we spin into another direction, it's not a proper way to d/q the backflip.

I have a feeling I'm closer to Mathman's generation than yours, but I also wouldn't want to watch figures for three hours non-stop. I do think they're a great foundation, and I've watched some tracings for a bit online, ex. Brian Boitano's IG but not a real attention getter for me either. Everything else you've stated above, I agree with - especially the parts in bold.

 

[sisinka]

As to ICE DANCE I believe that some sort of evalution could be done as well.

I am not sure that each concussion is really reported, we hear mostly about concussions from IAM (correct me if wrong), not from other coaching teams. Which I can hardly believe to.

Junior skaters are technically and physically weaker. So I doubt that falls and concussions would be more frequent at senior stage.

For evaluation it would be good to know:
1) real number of falls from lifts during season (I frankly believe that each couple remembers number of falls in lifts as those are not that high numbers),
2) real number of falls with head hitting the ice or hitting partner with head.

https://twitter.com/virtuemoired/status/1717303261647032675
- Twitter poster virtuemoired‘s post from October 2023 - she named top ice dancers with concussions from recent years (Madison Chock not included as she fell while walking in 2020)
- Laurence Fournier – Beaudry, Jean Luc Baker, Marjorie Lajoie, Madison Hubell, Gabriella Papadakis, Solene Mazingue, Emily Bratti, Kana Muramoto, Misato Komatsubara, Shiyeu Wang, Betina Popova
- in a post below somebody mentioned Anthony Ponomarenko

I was googling a little:
- Kaitlin Hawayek (happened in summer 2021)
https://www.usnews.com/news/sports/...hdraw-from-grand-prix-events-after-concussion
- Sara Kishimoto & Atsuhiko Tamara (don’t know which skater, 2023)
- Alexey Shchepetov (2023)
- Maxim Serov (2020)
- Madison Chock had a fall from a lift at Short dance practise at Skate America 2023 (probably hitting her head and then lying on the ice for longer time, was it diagnosed as concussion?)

I don't know how many of those were falls in lifts.

 

[sisinka]

I take these opinions below from World Men's Thread.

... In my opinion brain concussion should be discussed as well. Increasing number of concussions in dance cathegory is sending red flags. It starts to look like that ice dance lifts are becoming more dangerous than pair lifts or quad jumps as to concussions. I believe ISU should put attention to it.
...

...
I also am worried about the number of concussions in ice dance. I still have vivid memories of Dubreuil falling on the ice from a lift at the Olympics.
...

 

[sisinka]

ICE DANCERS - CONCUSSIONS in alphabetic order (I added dates):


Jean-Luc Baker (2015, 2018, 2023)
Emily Bratti (several concussions, one or more in 2022)

Laurence Fournier - Beaudry

Kaitlin Hawayek (summer 2021)
Madison Hubell (2013)

Sara Kishimotot & Atsuhiko Tamara (don’t know which skater 2023)
Misato Komatsubara (2 concussions in 2019)

Marjorie Lajoie (2017, 2024)

Solene Mazingue (2022, 2023)
Kana Muramoto (summer of 2020 or 2021)

Gabriella Papadakis (2015)

Anthony Ponomarenko
Betina Popova (4 concussions in 2019)

Maxim Serov (2020)
Alexey Shchepetov (2023)

Shiyeu Wang

If somebody would know another dancers with concussion or dates of those who I don't know, feel free to write it.

 

[Arigato]

this argument is disingenuous for lack of better word in my limited ESL vocabulary.. We see skaters do jumps off ice. We see skaters do lifts off ice. The twist, which is iconic in pairs skating, off ice. No, you cannot do gliding moves off ice but pretty much all the "tricks" that are essential to figure skating are done off ice.

What argument? There isn't one. It's red herring after red herring, designed to take your eye off the ball from the actual topic. The person has shown his cards by repeatedly making the spurious claim that one particular skater is doing his back flip simply " to look cool" (which could be claimed of any skater, past, present, or future, doing anything at all in their program, including their music choice or even making a bizarre facial expression after lunging/skating up to the judges for their ending pose). Worse still are those throwing their hat in the ring making comments that someone could be doing a back flip for social media attention, as if social media attention is actually a desirable outcome of any endeavor, whatsoever. Seriously, these so-called arguments have more holes in them than a golf course.

I'll quote Mark Hanretty as he was calling the action from 2024 Worlds after Adam SHF completed his Free Skate: " He wants creativity from the ISU and he is making a statement." Thankfully Mark didn't pretend it was for any other reason than what it actually was. Try as people may to malign a skater who simply wants more from his sport, Adam is simply following in the footsteps of those who have wanted the same, and achieved it, such as U.S. Olympic gold medalists Jonny Moseley in freestyle skiing and Shaun White in snowboarding.

I'll end here by reminding people that Adam's backflip was/is done during a step sequence and no one from Adam's team has said they are looking for the ISU to make it a separate element with its own BV and GOE. If anything, I would argue that the step sequence itself is what is on Richaud's and Adam's mind when they speak of creativity.

On a personal note, I think the step sequence should be at least doubled in BV with an appropriate increase in possible GOE points as well as a hefty deduction for performing it poorly. It would force people to actually skate well with good speed and maneuverabilty (lazy, two-foot skaters beware!) and to allow whatever—yes, whatever—creativity the skater chooses to employ since it is their ass that is on the line for the result. Heading into the Olympics, it could make all the difference in the world.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

IMHO It is that "essential to figure skating" that deserves closer attention.

There are two things that comprise the heart and soul of ice-skating: gliding and spinning. Try this experiment: do a Google image search on “figure skating” and count how many images come up of skaters gliding and spinning, compared to how many depict skaters jumping. (Although when I did it just now there was a picture of Surya Bonaly doing a backflip on the first page. ) There are also a lot of pictures of skaters just posing gracefully. This is OK, too. Spinning and gliding are good; spinning and gliding graceully – now we are on to something!

Personally, I have no beef with rotational jumps – spinning in the air a few feet above an ice surface is a natural extension of the idea of spinning on the nearly frictionless surface itself, plus a beautiful, well-controlled flowing landing edge is greatly to be admired. And rotational jumps demonstrate athletic prowess and exuberant spirit.

The other thing I like are steps and turns, whether in a dedicated step sequence or as transitions between choreographic highlights. Skaters don’t present school figures in competition any more, but an interesting parade of 3-turns, Mohawks, counters, etc., etc. – oh yeah, I’m all in.

But you can spin off ice. Look up Off ice figure skating spinners LOL.