How? It's still illegal in competition -- as are the adagio pair moves being discussed.
How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?
- Thread starter el henry
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"The most difficult, dangerous and treacherous move in figure skating!"ermmm i have seen some pretty wild waxels with super dangerous falls.
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCeKXrXR5eM&t=2m30s
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I've collided with the boards a few times, but I still prefer having them there to rinks with no barriers around the ice. You find yourself skating with your eyes down all the time, looking for the edge of the ice surface so you don't trip over it and end up on the floor.
Do you have any experience with the board padding that they put up for short-track? It seems like it would make falls into the boards less harmful, but would be more likely to cause a "brushed skate into boards" (or even "got skate tangled in boards") incident.
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I've seen that on TV, and envied them. Not used in any rink I've ever skated in, though, or at least not up if it's removable. All the rinks I've skated in were either shared with hockey (glass above the boards), or dedicated to figure skating.
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I like backflips.
Therefore, it should be a legal element.
Case closed.
Therefore, it should be a legal element.
Case closed.
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About the boards, in the famous incident involving Midori Ito, it appears from the videos that it was caused by the fact that a piece of the boards had been removed to accommodate the ice-level photographers. When Midori lost her balance, it looked like she reached out for the boards to catch herse;f -- but it wasn't there.
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Everyone remembers Midori Ito falling into the camera enclosure, but I also remember (although not well enough to recall when, where and who) seeing on TV a competition on a very large ice surface that had been cut down to a standard size by closing off one end with lovely beds of flowers in low boxes. You can guess what happened. One skater tripped with her back to the boxes and took a very undignified pratfall backwards, ending up sitting among the pretty flowers.
If you watch mathman's video to the end, you'll see a case where the end of the rink is shut off with temporary walls (kind of like cubicle partitions or stage scenery walls). A skater crashes into them and takes out several sections of wall.
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Is it the one on the same ouchy compilation above? At about 12:08
Figure Skaters Crashes into Wall Compilation
Thank you for watching! Feel free to Like and Subscribe! Share this video in social networks, and write your comments!#skatingfail#figureskating #iceskating ...
youtu.be
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^ That's the one.
I also recall a big competitiopn -- a grand prix event IIRC -- where there was a malfunction with the ice-making aparatus and there was a big puddle of water at one end of the surface. Each skater was given the option of having that section barricaded off (interfering with the planned choreography) or of performing bare-iced, so to speak, and either skating around or through the puddle. Ifrina Slutskaya was one competitor who chose to just skate through the wet patch. Fortunately there were no mishaps.
I also recall a big competitiopn -- a grand prix event IIRC -- where there was a malfunction with the ice-making aparatus and there was a big puddle of water at one end of the surface. Each skater was given the option of having that section barricaded off (interfering with the planned choreography) or of performing bare-iced, so to speak, and either skating around or through the puddle. Ifrina Slutskaya was one competitor who chose to just skate through the wet patch. Fortunately there were no mishaps.
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True, any elements is risky if your don't know how to do it well.Ice is slippery. Are there any elements that are not potentially dangerous?
Just thinking.
But we are talking about backflip specifically , is dangerous if you haven't a spectacular control of edges when you falls back to ice because also needs reinforce the quadriceps for achieve the enough force for jump back and reach a good height taking advantage of momentum ( when the horizontal force and speed is transfer to vertical force on a constant speed) .
Is ok that can teach it but must be awarded of the risk that it convey
No, landing a backflip is not about edge control. Unless you're Surya Bonaly, you land on two feet and are traveling in a pretty straight line.
Yes, it is definitely important to be able to jump high enough and rotate/flip fast enough to get the feet under you before you land.
Not sure what you mean here.
As of now, the backflip is an illegal element that earns a deduction if performed in ISU competition. It is not rewarded.
Athletic advanced skaters may want to learn it to perform in shows, including gala exhibitions at competitions. The ISU doesn't make rules about what can be done in exhibitions, whether backflips or lying on the ice or removing most of one's clothes.
The ISU has no jurisdiction over how skaters learn elements. That happens at practice rinks and any limitations, especially with an eye toward the safety of other skaters on the ice, would be put in place by the rink managers or skating clubs, or possibly national federations if they control ice time, which is not at all the case in my country.
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I think that there is an ambiguity about what we mean by risk and reward. In the most mundane usage, we face a situation like this: If I attempt a quad that I have a 60% chance of landing, the risk is that other 40% which results in the loss of a bunch of points. But if I am successful, the reward is that I gain a bunch of points compared to the safer alternative of doing a triple and virtually guaranteeing myself a medium number of points.
In the case of Adam Siao Him Fa and the backflip, under the current rules "risk and reward" means something entirely different. If Adam does a backflip the "risk" (actually the certainty) is that he will receive a deduction of two points. The reward is that he will be cheered as a cool dude and a rebel.
Now we come to "risk" meaning that the athlete puts his health, indeed his life and limb, at stake. From the perspective of the ISU, what would be the reward? To provide a more exciting and popular viewing experience for the audience?
Of course we can argue that a backflip is not really so risky and dangerous anyway. Or that everything in life is risky and dangerous, so you might as well go out in a blaze of glory.
In the case of Adam Siao Him Fa and the backflip, under the current rules "risk and reward" means something entirely different. If Adam does a backflip the "risk" (actually the certainty) is that he will receive a deduction of two points. The reward is that he will be cheered as a cool dude and a rebel.
Now we come to "risk" meaning that the athlete puts his health, indeed his life and limb, at stake. From the perspective of the ISU, what would be the reward? To provide a more exciting and popular viewing experience for the audience?
Of course we can argue that a backflip is not really so risky and dangerous anyway. Or that everything in life is risky and dangerous, so you might as well go out in a blaze of glory.
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I don't want to troll, but do you guys think the raspberry flip or whatever it's called or Adam's handless cartwheel thingy are less dangerous?
If Ilia lost control, he could land on his head sideways and Adam could also crash face down onto the ice. Why then are these moves ok but not the back flip?
If Ilia lost control, he could land on his head sideways and Adam could also crash face down onto the ice. Why then are these moves ok but not the back flip?
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Does anyone remember Michael Weiss' "Tprnado" move? A backflip with a full twist. (Sort of a cross between a raspberry twist and a backlip?)
www.youtube.com
Weiss Tornado at Worlds in 2003
Michael Weiss performs the first Back Flip with a full twist on the ice. Performed in Columbus, OH in 2004. Also known as, "The Tornado."
www.youtube.com
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Will clarify something. I mean both foots aplomb for no slip or fall when are landing.. That was a mistake mine (write faster when I'm commuting)
I said "is ok" but I don't mean that ISU must allow backflip as required element because or would be like that allows Detroiters (is the most dangerous element and forbidden since 40 years or more ago) or any dangerous element and even here in Chile is forbidden even on exhibitions or ice gala.
I hope my words don't be taken out of context
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To me, the strongest argument in favor of regarding backflips as UNIQUELY a bad idea in figure skating would go something like this.
First, in post #71 on this thread Sisinka, a medical doctor, posted this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEOikkb55VY showing (mostly) kids goofing off tyring backflips in various settings without knowing how. There is nothing the ISU can do to prevent such adventures, but that doesn't mean that they should provide official encouragement and sanction as a sports regulatory body.
Secondly, a backflip has, as far as I can tell, absolutely nothing to do with ice skating. Neither does standing on your head -- although once in a while we see figure skaters in exhibitions stop in the middle of a peformance to stand on their heads on the ice just because, hey, I felt like standing on my head (or -- I am presenting the character of a circus clown and clowns sometimes stand on teir heads -- or do backflips).
A move like Ilia Malinin's Raspberry is, in contrast, sort of "figure-skaty" -- that is, it is not at all far removed from the type of flying spinnig moves that are a part of the traditional "vocabulary of skating (™
)"Transitional choreographic embellishments like stag jumps and falling leafs (leaves?) -- OK, they do npt have anything much to do with ice, but at least they are legitimately inherited from dance -- thinking of skating as having an element of "dancing on ice." Nothing wrong with that, plus there is hardly a smidgeon of danger involved, either for trained experts or for unsupervosed children fooling around on their own.
Does this argument carry the day? Dunno.
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I have never understood why the Detroiter adagio pairs lift was thought to be dangerous. To me, it is a basic stationary rotational lift that no pairs team would be leery of trying.
www.youtube.com
Like in any pairs lift it would be possible for the man to lose his balance or for the lady's core to collapse. For the one-handed version you have to make sure that your hand is at the right fulcrum point. But this is true in any pairs or dance lift.
Also, like any pairs move, we wouldn't like to see children attempt it on their own without supervision and training. But no more so than, for instance, a star lift.
Yulia and Josiah "Detroiter"
www.youtube.com
Like in any pairs lift it would be possible for the man to lose his balance or for the lady's core to collapse. For the one-handed version you have to make sure that your hand is at the right fulcrum point. But this is true in any pairs or dance lift.
Also, like any pairs move, we wouldn't like to see children attempt it on their own without supervision and training. But no more so than, for instance, a star lift.
I do agree that not every single fall leads to bruises, just majority of falls do lead to some kind of injuries (from bruises to most serious ones). I do not agree with other sentences you wrote. I will try to explain.
1) Here is video of Canadian skaters (Kaetlyn Osmond, Gabrielle Daleman, Maegan Duhamel & Erik Radford)
https://youtu.be/lNZKY3WjsrU?si=rodMxyjvDMh-9T56
Listening to what they say - even for them falling is not "safe" thing. It is painful and leads to bruises and haematomas (if you even can't sit in the car on the seat being from softer material, then you definitely don't have bruises only.)
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2012/12/08/two-falls-second-place-for-wagner-in-grand-prix-final-2/
- Ashley Wagner - “When I fall, I fall hard.”
2) Looking at science studies:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6204632/
- review from 2018 comparing acute and overuse injuries.
- "Ankle sprains are among the most common injuries in figure skaters, with a prevalence of greater than 50%."
Falls which results in ankle sprain cannot be described as safe, no?
- "Head injury in figure skating is a growing area of research interest. Head injuries occur most frequently in pairs skaters followed by ice dancers and singles skaters."
3) https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/fulltext/2021/05000/pediatric_and_adolescent_figure_skating_injuries_.12.aspx
- Pediatric and Adolescent Figure Skating Injuries: A 15-Year Retrospective Review in 2019
- 271 female and 23 male). Age rage: 9 to 19 years
- Approximately 68.9% were overuse and 31.1% were acute injuries (the most frequently injured body areas were foot/ankle, knee, back, hip
Over 31 percent of acute injuries from falls - is not a description of "safe" falling in my opinion.
4) I started skating at the age of 13, after passing skating exam in front of all local coaches I was accepted to the club. Thanks to it I saw practises of competive skaters of all age range (training double, few of them triple jumps).
I saw all different kind of falls on different parts of body. Some falls were "soft" like landing on feet and then slowly going down. But many were pretty harsh and painful mine including. I was never taught how to fall.
Those times one skating mom complained that doctor - paediatrician was suspicious about domestic abuse because of bruises and haematoma on her daughter's body. Both daughter and mom were explaining to the doctor that it is normal in figure skating...
5) Right now there is one patient at our Inpatient Rehabilitation - former competive skater in 70s and 80s. Her grandfather was coach and international judge, her father was in ice dancer and uncle a pair skaters. Yes, she was taught how to fall safely. But no, falls on the ice were not soft. She mentioned that ice is tough but elastic, so sometimes the falls look worse then they actually are. Many falls were painful, falling on knees was frequent, all kids had many bruises, soft tissues injuries, sprains. She never broke a bone.
She thinks all skaters have higher pain tolerance thanks to multiple falls.
One of her last quotes: "Fall is never safe. Brain gives you signals that you are not in a good position in the air or take off was not good, but you never know for sure how will you land. You may only predict."
6) Golden Skate Thread in 2018:
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/bruise-on-knees.77882/
- skating mom complaining that her daughter has many bruises on the knees
- more people confirms this is happening
- our elite skater @Ic3Rabbit :"Bruises and this sport go hand in hand."
7) There are more skaters with shoulder dislocation from falls. After first dislocation redislocations are more easy to happen. Todd Eldredge (stumble and fall), Miki Ando (at competition it happened during spin, but it couldn't be the first dislocation), Adam Rippon (fall in jump), Daniel Samohin (fall in jump), Aleksandr Selevko (fall, in 2021 and 2022), Mark Hanretty (twice - stumble and fall, during lift).
8) There are multiple examples of bad falls from competitions. I always admired skaters for their bravery to get up and continue skating after bad fall. So if I see that the skater gets up really slowly I know that it must pain terribly. No pads. Just glitters and tears, but they keep going.
I don't want to use falls from pair cathegory, I believe you didn't mean safe fall talking abou this cathegory.
Anna Pogorilaya or Jeremy Abbott were known for harsh falls. Kimmie Repond falls terribly. There are many skaters who had bad falls at competitions (I would say that every skater had some bad falls during her / his career...such bad that she / he had big trouble to get up). There more videos on YouTube Channel. When you say that falls (especially in jumps) are safe, how is it possible that they fall that badly @adhara ?
9) Skaters will hopefully forgive me to give them as an example of falls, but I would never be able to describe perfectly what is seen on the video. I am not using the worst falls. Instead I chose kind of falls which I saw many times both at practise and competitions, both at local and international events.
Miki Ando 2005 Marshalls LP - https://youtu.be/GklM1M5KnBQ?t=194
Patrick Chan 2012 World Championships LP - https://youtu.be/O32eNjbWH78?t=280
Irina Slutskaya 2006 Olympic Games LP - https://youtu.be/VZewQrj_ssk?t=264
I definitely didn't get the idea that skaters were in any way "preparing" and executing "safe" fall. Please, your opinion @adhara . Are those falls really safe in eyes of some skaters?
