How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[Anna K.]

As someone who has done backflips off ice: when you mess it up you tend to land on your feet first before falling. This is no different than a figure skating jump. You land on your feet then you fall.

That's the point! When doing back flip, you do not land directly on the head. To do so, you should miraculously freeze in the air in the middle of a swing. Which is against physics. And, if you do all moves properly, you get quite a swing.
If we go through all moves in slow-mo, there are head-down and back-down stages; but, to drop down during any of these stages, you need to lose the speed completely. Which would mean freezing in the air. But you can't freeze the actual movement like you freeze the slow-mo frame.

This is what I thought when I read about Alexey Vasilevskiy accident. How could he do it?! How exactly did it happen? At which stage of learning? Did he do everything to the book?
I know that there can be all kinds of crazy accidents (see the bed injury statistic above). But, if you tell me: "he fell on his head when doing a back flip", this is inexplicable for me.

 

[Anna K.]

I would also be interested in how many doctors ISU cooperates with to reduce unnecessary risk of injuries. And how many times those doctors were evaluating ISU rules and Level features to decide about the level of risk for an athletes.

A reliable evaluation can only be based on case studies, not assumptions. Otherwise there will be a doctor who considers Ina Bauer being a potentially deadly move and another doctor who uses different evaluation criteria and finds it harmless or even beneficial for health.

So, like it or loathe it, we can't put a cart before a horse. This sport (like any sport btw) is pushing the limits of physical boundaries and we can only know the actual effects on human health after analyzing the injury/illness rate and character post-factum.
Which shall indeed be done, no doubt about it; and most harming practices shall be dropped. If you are asking me what is my idea of a better world then ISU should certainly cooperate with all doctors involved in the field (organize seminars, finance research, develop and publish guidelines etc.). However, ISU is merely a union that consists of national federations. So, the initiative shall start from national federations to make anything happen. Unless we try to put a cart before a horse once again.

 

[Mathman]

If you do all moves properly....

Sometimes even the best-trained athletes do not do all the moves properly every time out. In downhill skiing if you do it properly you will never miss a gate and end up in a heap at the bottom of the run with a broken leg. If you shoot a basketball properly it will go in the basket every time. If you execute a triple sommersault in trapeze properly and the catcher does his part properly no one would ever fall to the sawdust below. If you drive your car properly you will never run into a tree and kill yourself.

If you do a layback spin properly it will never travel -- that's just physics. And yet...

 

[Anna K.]

If you drive your car properly you will never run into a tree and kill yourself.

Here you are wrong. My car can break and I can drive into a tree regardless of my driving skills. It would indeed make no difference for me, given the outcome. But it would make a great big difference for insurers and those entitled to receive insurance.

And yet...

And yet nothing can replace your individual risk assessment that only you personally can do. Regardless if you lie in your bed, ski downhill, or drive a car. It's your decision and then - as good as it gets.

In other words, purchase an insurance

 

[Anna K.]

In other words, purchase an insurance

Once we mentioned this, collaboration between ISU and health insurers might actually be more efficient and useful than collaboration with doctors. ISU as an international body could find (or create) an insurance company that is recognized by all countries where competitive skaters travel to and/or take insurer's advice for risk reduction to get better insurance terms for skaters.

 

[Mathman]

And yet nothing can replace your individual risk assessment that only you personally can do.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Well-trained skater X can personally do a triple Axel. Once in a while the body rebels and he pops it into a single. This is just the way humans are. Fortunately a popped triple Axel pnly loses some scoring points and leaves the skater feeling embarrassed and foolish, but it is not a big safety issue per se.

As for the car that breaks down even though you are a good driver, I think the skating analogy would be pairs. If you are a lady executing a head-banger with your partner and he messes up, you get your head banged even though it's not your fault.

 

[4everchan]

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Well-trained skater X can personally do a triple Axel. Once in a while the body rebels and he pops it into a single. This is just the way humans are. Fortunately a popped triple Axel pnly loses some scoring points and leaves the skater feeling embarrassed and foolish, but it is not a big safety issue per se.

ermmm i have seen some pretty wild waxels with super dangerous falls.

As for the car that breaks down even though you are a good driver, I think the skating analogy would be pairs. If you are a lady executing a head-banger with your partner and he messes up, you get your head banged even though it's not your fault.

 

[el henry]

I really really REALLY do not understand the argument: Athletes are pushers of envelopes, doers of deeds of derring-do, risk takers, and boundary pushers.

So? That is not an argument against safety rules, that is an argument FOR safety rules.

and some skaters will train Wonderful Thrilling Element X anyway, despite the rules.

So? Can't save people from themselves, doesn't mean there are no rules. As my grandfather used to say, locks keep the honest man honest.

(I'm not quite sure how that relates, but I threw it in there any way)

 

[Mathman]

ermmm i have seen some pretty wild waxels with super dangerous falls.

I know, right? It's that "asking-for-a-faceplant" forward take-off.

(I'm not quite sure how that relates, but I threw it in there any way )

Never hurts to quote grandpa.

Bill Gates did not invent DOS. He licensed it from the Seattle Computer Products (SCP) company.

I love this site. I learn something here every day, and not just about figure skating.

 

[Anna K.]

I really really REALLY do not understand the argument: Athletes are pushers of envelopes, doers of deeds of derring-do, risk takers, and boundary pushers.

So? That is not an argument against safety rules, that is an argument FOR safety rules.

To me, it says that you have understood the argument perfectly well.
That's why we are having a discussion about what and how the safety rules should be. Or, don't we?

 

[Anna K.]

As for the car that breaks down even though you are a good driver, I think the skating analogy would be pairs. If you are a lady executing a head-banger with your partner and he messes up, you get your head banged even though it's not your fault.

Head-banger? Did you mean that move when the guy holds the girl upside down by an ankle and then rotates really slowly to let the audience feel how extremely dangerous it is? So, having two free hands and a free leg to protect my head in case I go down, I am supposed to get my head banged. I don't think so.

If anything can have a car crash effect then this is messing up (regardless of whose fault it is) during high-speed rotational lifts in ice dance. You can scare me with that. But a head-banger? Oh, please. If I was younger, you could hire me to do a failed head-banger stunt for a movie any time.

 

[Mathman]

Once we mentioned this, collaboration between ISU and health insurers might actually be more efficient and useful than collaboration with doctors. ISU as an international body could find (or create) an insurance company that is recognized by all countries where competitive skaters travel to and/or take insurer's advice for risk reduction to get better insurance terms for skaters.

An intriguing and innovative thought. However, I think that the last thing the ISU would ever want to get caught in the middle of the quagmire of personal injury lawsuits.

 

[sisinka]

...
1) Falls on the ice usually leads to injuries or at least to haematomas. You can fall on every part of your body, you can hit the board with any part of your body head including. You can fall on your back and then hit the ice with you head.

This is absolutely false. The first thing every skater learns is how to fall safely. Falls on jumps are some of the safest ones because they are predictable. Falls on backflips will also be predictable.

First I should explain one think. In my country haematoma means even small localized bleeding. Looking now at google I mentioned that in English there is term bruise and haematoma - haematoma for bigger blood vessel to be injured. What I meant in my post was bruises. I do believe that some skaters can create haematomas (even in English term of meaning), but it will not be frequent.

I will have some notes and questions to your post about safe landings mainly in jumps. Because this description really caught my attention.

... People learning backflips aren't stupid. There are methods to doing it. There are spotters. There are harnesses (just like there are for regular jumps). There is padding. Everyone I know who has learned a backflip was wearing a helmet until they felt confident enough to land it every time. Watch an ice show. It's more common than you think. ...

I never meant they would be stupid. If it was understood this way, it is misunderstanding.

 

[4everchan]

I really really REALLY do not understand the argument: Athletes are pushers of envelopes, doers of deeds of derring-do, risk takers, and boundary pushers.

So? That is not an argument against safety rules, that is an argument FOR safety rules.

and some skaters will train Wonderful Thrilling Element X anyway, despite the rules.

So? Can't save people from themselves, doesn't mean there are no rules. As my grandfather used to say, locks keep the honest man honest.

(I'm not quite sure how that relates, but I threw it in there any way)

So what do you do with halfpipe (and other freestyle skiing and snowboarding) then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Burke
What do you do with luge (and other sliding sports) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodar_Kumaritashvili
What do you do with road cycling : 4 deaths in Tour de France only ?
Here is the list of marathon fatalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_marathon_fatalities also, among Marathon fatalities, let's not forget some of the terrorists attack during marathons that cumulate to near 40 deaths.
What do you do with taking a walk ? 20 pedestrians die each day talking a walk.

I understand the scares and concerns. I would love to see appropriate headgear (though it didn't help the Sarah nor Nodar). I am not a risk taker when it comes to my health... but I know people who love flying and speed.
Would you put a antelope in a cage and prevent it from running, though if it does run freely, it may be caught by a tiger ?

I don't really know where I stand on the topic but there is NO WAY to make EVERY SPORT safe

 

[sisinka]

... As someone who has done backflips off ice: when you mess it up you tend to land on your feet first before falling. This is no different than a figure skating jump. You land on your feet then you fall. ...

Figure skating jumps (all 6 kinds) = vertical axis of rotation.

Back flip = horizontal axis of rotation.

Which means that if you underrotate figure skating jump, you indeed get on your feet first. But underrotation of back flip (or front flip) means you can fall on other parts of body, not feet only - it depends on degree of underrotation and body position in the air.

 

[NanaPat]

Head-banger? Did you mean that move when the guy holds the girl upside down by an ankle and then rotates really slowly to let the audience feel how extremely dangerous it is? So, having two free hands and a free leg to protect my head in case I go down, I am supposed to get my head banged. I don't think so.

No. Don't know the name of that move, but believe it is fairly new. I don't mind that move much, but headbangers make me cringe.

Here's an excellent video of a headbanger

 

[4everchan]

To me, the three scariest elements in figure skating are

1) the twist
2) rotational lifts in dance
3) SBS camel spins in pairs (blade)

 

[el henry]

So what do you do with halfpipe (and other freestyle skiing and snowboarding) then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Burke
What do you do with luge (and other sliding sports) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodar_Kumaritashvili
What do you do with road cycling : 4 deaths in Tour de France only ?
Here is the list of marathon fatalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_marathon_fatalities also, among Marathon fatalities, let's not forget some of the terrorists attack during marathons that cumulate to near 40 deaths.
What do you do with taking a walk ? 20 pedestrians die each day talking a walk.

I understand the scares and concerns. I would love to see appropriate headgear (though it didn't help the Sarah nor Nodar). I am not a risk taker when it comes to my health... but I know people who love flying and speed.
Would you put a antelope in a cage and prevent it from running, though if it does run freely, it may be caught by a tiger ?

I don't really know where I stand on the topic but there is NO WAY to make EVERY SPORT safe

What about the other sports?

Sorry to say, don't know, don't care, don't watch them. I will leave to their fans to decide how to address safety risks. If you want me to wax rhapsodic about football and CTE and MetLife's artificial turf and risk reduction attempted there, I can, but believe it or not I do try to reduce the analogies to my other fandom (Go Birds)

Did I ever say I thought all sport would be risk-FREE? I think not.

Does the fact that sport will not be risk-free mean we should take no additional steps to reduce risk? I think not.

 

[4everchan]

What about the other sports?

Sorry to say, don't know, don't care, don't watch them. I will leave to their fans to decide how to address safety risks. If you want me to wax rhapsodic about football and CTE and MetLife's artificial turf and risk reduction attempted there, I can, but believe it or not I do try to reduce the analogies to my other fandom (Go Birds)

Did I ever say I thought all sport would be risk-FREE? I think not.

Does the fact that sport will not be risk-free mean we should take no additional steps to reduce risk? I think not.

My argument about other sports is not to find common ground for risk reduction in athletic activities but to show that there are other sports out there with very severe risks of fatality, compared to figure skating. If you are a F1 driver, you may simply die, any day. If you are a figure skater, the probabilities aren't that high. So in law, or in establishing rules, you have to consider the probabilities. People will not regulate otherwise. That's your domain of expertise, so that's my angle... feel free to comment on that.

The major cause of death for figure skaters (other than natural causes or accidental causes not related to skating) seems more related to abuse than falls on tricks to be honest.

 

[sisinka]

That's the point! When doing back flip, you do not land directly on the head. To do so, you should miraculously freeze in the air in the middle of a swing. Which is against physics. And, if you do all moves properly, you get quite a swing.
If we go through all moves in slow-mo, there are head-down and back-down stages; but, to drop down during any of these stages, you need to lose the speed completely. Which would mean freezing in the air. But you can't freeze the actual movement like you freeze the slow-mo frame.

You don't need to freeze in the air, you can only have slow rotation or decelerate rotation in the air accidentally.

If skaters are able to slower rotation in the air having vertical axis they will be able to slower rotation in horizontal axis as well.

Do you remember any skater going in the air for planned triple / quad jump and suddenly opening the position (which slows rotation) to execute double jump only? Last one who I remember is Deniss Vasiljevs at 2024 World Championships - planned quad salchow became double only in Free Program.

And look at Robin Cousins. https://youtu.be/UaaL5Ue8UeI?si=GPf2p6pHL-0EaUYy He executes an example of slow rotation becoming faster in his open single axel.

Both skaters decelerate and accelerate the speed of rotation with different body position and different leading of body segments (timing and speed). Different level of strengthening can play role as well.

If these things determine speed of rotation or acceleration / deceleration of rotation in jumps in vertical axis…the same logic will be in jumps in horizontal axis, I believe.