The challenges of music editing/cutting

my two cents

as a musician, music cuts drive me crazy... there are many awful ones...especially those that won't make sense with the narrative/structure of a piece.

Some are done brilliantly.... some are just not working for me.

Here are things a good editor should avoid :

1) changing the emotional charge of a piece by removing its main theme (or going from sections to sections that have nothing to do with one another... for instance how Rachmnaninoff's 2nd piano concerto is often cut to feature some exciting part of the first movement, then the need for a slow section brings a bit of the 2nd movement and to finish with fast steps and spins, the 3rd mvt is brought in.... so in 4 minutes, the editor tries to put 30 minutes of content... )

Ex. yuzu's chopin ballade in which the editor has removed all 3 sections with the main and broad lyric theme focusing on the more intimate waltz theme of the opening... and then pretty much going straight to the fireworks of the coda, without caring about how to get there emotionally, which completely alters the meaning of the piece.

2) cutting abruptly in the middle of a phrase to reduce time or repeating the same part of a phrase to allow the skater more time for an element or choreo
I also was mad at Kaetlyn's La bohème last year... for repeating a musical phrase twice to add the 3-4 seconds she needed to finish the inbetweens before getting to the end of the ice, where she then prepare for the set up of the 3F. notice that the melody is repeated before going to its' normal course.

For someone trained in music it's like a question is repeated twice before the answer comes in which is unsettling

the 3rd way and by far the worse is what a lot of people seem to be doing lately : trying to enhance classical music by adding beats or other instruments to it....
B/S were the biggest sinners in that sense with their awful soundtrack for their free dance

Not only did they have the nerve to add some string part to the Chopin prelude in c minor but they tagged a fast vivaldi part to it. just to obey the requirements of having two different tempi in their free dance...

from the last couple years, B/S free dance is the biggest sin. I am not even going to share a link.

Pogorolayia also added unnecessary things to her tango music....

less is more guys


but i have learned to let go.

I cut almost all of my own music when I was competing in the late 1990s, using a cd and cassette player. I remember thinking I would never learn to do it on a computer, but then I ended up working in dance and theatre, so I'm still editing music with Audacity and Garage Band (which I must confess is much easier). I'm also a musician and agree re the points raised above concerning things to avoid - including excessive additions - but I suspect what may be motivating some of them is how music sounds coming out of the sound systems in rinks. I remember being unable to use some music I wanted to use because it sounded tinny in the arena, or the subtleties that made it sound beautiful on my stereo got lost because of the very different acoustics. I can see why people would try to 'beef up' the music to avoid this, even if the addition of unnecessary techno beats does make my skin crawl...

And with lyrics now allowed... Don't cut from the beginning of one verse to the end of a later one just to get to the musical build within the time limit but losing the sense of the words and losing an intended rhyme

On the topic of music editing: I'm gonna get crucified for admitting this, but I actually loved Mirai's Gatsby program, ridiculous music cuts and all. So much so that I downloaded it off of gattokiller's YouTube channel to put it on my iPhone. I blast that baby in the car all the time.

Crucifixion, commence!

This is a fantastic thread with a lot of useful info!
I'm so impressed by skaters who are composing their own music, what a load of talent these folks have! All very interesting to read about what a process this is on the elite level, and I really appreciate the lengths people go to have an appealing end result. Hopefully one that won't make their rink mates groan every time it comes on, and that us fans will enjoy.

4everchan said:

my two cents

as a musician, music cuts drive me crazy... there are many awful ones...especially those that won't make sense with the narrative/structure of a piece.

Some are done brilliantly.... some are just not working for me.

Here are things a good editor should avoid :

1) changing the emotional charge of a piece by removing its main theme (or going from sections to sections that have nothing to do with one another... for instance how Rachmnaninoff's 2nd piano concerto is often cut to feature some exciting part of the first movement, then the need for a slow section brings a bit of the 2nd movement and to finish with fast steps and spins, the 3rd mvt is brought in.... so in 4 minutes, the editor tries to put 30 minutes of content... )

Ex. yuzu's chopin ballade in which the editor has removed all 3 sections with the main and broad lyric theme focusing on the more intimate waltz theme of the opening... and then pretty much going straight to the fireworks of the coda, without caring about how to get there emotionally, which completely alters the meaning of the piece.

Click to expand...

As a pianist by training, I am irked by many of the same things you mentioned, especially when they butcher my dear Chopin. *heartbreak*

2) cutting abruptly in the middle of a phrase to reduce time or repeating the same part of a phrase to allow the skater more time for an element or choreo
I also was mad at Kaetlyn's La bohème last year... for repeating a musical phrase twice to add the 3-4 seconds she needed to finish the inbetweens before getting to the end of the ice, where she then prepare for the set up of the 3F. notice that the melody is repeated before going to its' normal course.

For someone trained in music it's like a question is repeated twice before the answer comes in which is unsettling

Click to expand...

I noticed that too, and it drove me nuts every time. However, it might be a choice between making the choreography work and maintaining musical integrity; I'm not surprised Kaetlyn's team went for the former. Having 3 fewer seconds to set up for a 3F can completely throw off the skater.

the 3rd way and by far the worse is what a lot of people seem to be doing lately : trying to enhance classical music by adding beats or other instruments to it....
B/S were the biggest sinners in that sense with their awful soundtrack for their free dance

Not only did they have the nerve to add some string part to the Chopin prelude in c minor but they tagged a fast vivaldi part to it. just to obey the requirements of having two different tempi in their free dance...

from the last couple years, B/S free dance is the biggest sin. I am not even going to share a link.

Pogorolayia also added unnecessary things to her tango music....

less is more guys


but i have learned to let go.

Click to expand...

I thought those piece came from the "classical crossover" community, rather than the skater adding the drum beats themselves? These days nothing is safe from the claws of classical crossover...

SarahSynchro said:

On the topic of music editing: I'm gonna get crucified for admitting this, but I actually loved Mirai's Gatsby program, ridiculous music cuts and all. So much so that I downloaded it off of gattokiller's YouTube channel to put it on my iPhone. I blast that baby in the car all the time.

Crucifixion, commence!

Click to expand...

Don't feel bad - I have always had a soft spot for Morris Kvitelashvili's SP with the crazy mix of "I Believe I Can Fly" and "What Is Love". And also Sergei Voronov's LP from a few seasons ago. :

SarahSynchro said:

On the topic of music editing: I'm gonna get crucified for admitting this, but I actually loved Mirai's Gatsby program, ridiculous music cuts and all. So much so that I downloaded it off of gattokiller's YouTube channel to put it on my iPhone. I blast that baby in the car all the time.

Crucifixion, commence!

Click to expand...

Weathergal said:

Don't feel bad - I have always had a soft spot for Morris Kvitelashvili's SP with the crazy mix of "I Believe I Can Fly" and "What Is Love". And also Sergei Voronov's LP from a few seasons ago. :

Click to expand...

Same! Liked all three - and that cutting from "I believe I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky - " to "Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more!" is just... priceless. I also liked his LP - I just don't know how he can top those two programs. If he doesn't skate to medleys next season, I shall be terribly disappointed.

Of course, I think I've got a relatively high tolerance level for medleys, judging by how often I'm not bothered by cuts that seem to annoy a large number of people.

stormblade said:

Eric Radford composed Patrick Chan's FS "A Journey" last season. Gorgeous piece of music.

Click to expand...

I remember it now. But it's boring music.

Alex re-arranged the Shibs FD from this past season.

cl2 said:

Why is it even necessary to have newly composed music for skating? The composed music still requires hiring musicians to play it. Would it be easier to just hire musicians to play your exact "cuts" of existing music, I wonder?

ETA: Maybe only applicable to non-copyrighted music such as classical music or jazz standards.

Click to expand...

I think having someone composed music for your skating that suits your intentions will result in more natural feelings than chopping the music into pieces. But I understand it's a luxury for most skaters.

In the Hanyu's thread there is a nice interview on how Seimei and H&L music were cut and the long process to get the permission from Hisaishi to join two different pieces. Which raise the following questions: who pays for the copyright, if due (the skater, the federation, others)? Do they need to get permission to mix and match different music (say for example, Mirai's "Gatsby" program)?

ED: BTW very nice topic, I'm learning a lot and I hope that there will be more posts! :thumbsup:

lappo said:

In the Hanyu's thread there is a nice interview on how Seimei and H&L music were cut and the long process to get the permission from Hisaishi to join two different pieces. Which raise the following questions: who pays for the copyright, if due (the skater, the federation, others)? Do they need to get permission to mix and match different music (say for example, Mirai's "Gatsby" program)?

ED: BTW very nice topic, I'm learning a lot and I hope that there will be more posts! :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

Would it be the case, at the very least, that broadcasters need permission from copyright holders if they are airing skaters who use copyrighted music? It would be much easier to obtain the copyright permissions before creating the program, rather than to wait until competition time and risk not getting permission. Just speculation here... it anyone knows about this, I'd like to know.

lappo said:

In the Hanyu's thread there is a nice interview on how Seimei and H&L music were cut and the long process to get the permission from Hisaishi to join two different pieces. Which raise the following questions: who pays for the copyright, if due (the skater, the federation, others)? Do they need to get permission to mix and match different music (say for example, Mirai's "Gatsby" program)?

ED: BTW very nice topic, I'm learning a lot and I hope that there will be more posts! :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

For those interested, here's the translation of the article, https://wherespacepooh.tumblr.com/post/162588835769/the-world-of-figure-skating-music-spun-by-sound about the work of Keiichi Yanno, one of the prominent music editors for figure skaters in Japan, and his work to create Seimei and Hope and Legacy for Yuzuru Hanyu.

cl2 said:

Would it be the case, at the very least, that broadcasters need permission from copyright holders if they are airing skaters who use copyrighted music? It would be much easier to obtain the copyright permissions before creating the program, rather than to wait until competition time and risk not getting permission. Just speculation here... it anyone knows about this, I'd like to know.

Click to expand...

In general the location pays a liscencing fee. It is comparable to a music Club, shopping Mall, Radio Station. Everyone who gives access to the music, needs to pay. This can be as much as thousands of dollars a month, something that is calculated by your possible audience.

As a skater you should not have to worry about it at all and btw. mixing, editing ... Everyone is allowed to do, its about publishing it, where it gets complicated.

Did you ever wonder why skaters tend to not sell their music? That's why.

Alex D said:

In general the location pays a liscencing fee. It is comparable to a music Club, shopping Mall, Radio Station. Everyone who gives access to the music, needs to pay. This can be as much as thousands of dollars a month, something that is calculated by your possible audience.

As a skater you should not have to worry about it at all and btw. mixing, editing ... Everyone is allowed to do, its about publishing it, where it gets complicated.

Did you ever wonder why skaters tend to not sell their music? That's why.

Click to expand...

Thank you! My interest was sparked by the article about Hanyu's Hope and Legacy and the trouble they had to go through to get the permission to mix the two music and I wondered if there was any risk that the author could sue a skater for mixing stuff (thus distancing from the author original vision of his own work). Or maybe they did it because they know that the videos will find their way on Youtube and therefore they don't risk to be muted as frequently occurs with skating videos (it would also be interesting to know why some of them are muted and some not, for example if this depend on some authors being very strict and others thinking that the use of their songs will bring more attention to their music...I wonder this because if you go on Joe Hisaishi videos, many comments point out that they arrived there from Yuzuru's video).

lappo said:

Thank you! My interest was sparked by the article about Hanyu's Hope and Legacy and the trouble they had to go through to get the permission to mix the two music and I wondered if there was any risk that the author could sue a skater for mixing stuff (thus distancing from the author original vision of his own work). Or maybe they did it because they know that the videos will find their way on Youtube and therefore they don't risk to be muted as frequently occurs with skating videos (it would also be interesting to know why some of them are muted and some not, for example if this depend on some authors being very strict and others thinking that the use of their songs will bring more attention to their music...I wonder this because if you go on Joe Hisaishi videos, many comments point out that they arrived there from Yuzuru's video).

Click to expand...

I wonder about that too. Let's say you compose a song and I use your song in my program. If you don't like it, can you sue me for using the song without your permission? Technically I don't make money from it. But it's still not ok for not asking you first, isn't it?

Ender said:

I wonder about that too. Let's say you compose a song and I use your song in my program. If you don't like it, can you sue me for using the song without your permission? Technically I don't make money from it. But it's still not ok for not asking you first, isn't it?

Click to expand...

I'm interested because I really don't know how it works in figure skating and I always thought that they should seek permission to use the music, even if it's not used to make a profit. I can tell you for certain that it works like that for images when you have to publish them for academical reason (you don't get a penny from the article, book and so on but you still have to ask permission from the original source, sometimes you have to pay for it and you have to file a document where you declare that any wrongful use of image is your own fault and not the editor's...at least in my country). For this reason I always thought that a permission was needed to use the music, since I guess that music copyright rules could possibly be stricter than image right's for academical purposes with all the money involved in the music market. But apparently this is not the case.

lappo said:

I'm interested because I really don't know how it works in figure skating and I always thought that they should seek permission to use the music, even if it's not used to make a profit. I can tell you for certain that it works like that for images when you have to publish them for academical reason (you don't get a penny from the article, book and so on but you still have to ask permission from the original source, sometimes you have to pay for it and you have to file a document where you declare that any wrongful use of image is your own fault and not the editor's...at least in my country). For this reason I always thought that a permission was needed to use the music, since I guess that music copyright rules could possibly be stricter than image right's for academical purposes with all the money involved in the music market. But apparently this is not the case.

Click to expand...

Maybe since Figure skating isn't a mainstream sport, there is not enough attention being paid about copyright issues. Why sue the skaters? Most of them are not rich to begin with.

lappo said:

Thank you! My interest was sparked by the article about Hanyu's Hope and Legacy and the trouble they had to go through to get the permission to mix the two music and I wondered if there was any risk that the author could sue a skater for mixing stuff (thus distancing from the author original vision of his own work). Or maybe they did it because they know that the videos will find their way on Youtube and therefore they don't risk to be muted as frequently occurs with skating videos (it would also be interesting to know why some of them are muted and some not, for example if this depend on some authors being very strict and others thinking that the use of their songs will bring more attention to their music...I wonder this because if you go on Joe Hisaishi videos, many comments point out that they arrived there from Yuzuru's video).

Click to expand...

YT is indeed a problem, but it depends who the copyright owner is and if the uploader is trying to monetize the video. At electronic dance music, I only know of two labels that ask for the removal of their original content. The others will tolerate these uploads, but demand that the author of said videos, disables monetization. The result is free promotion and thousands of DJ mixes that in theory are illegal, but will be tolerated.

Ender said:

I wonder about that too. Let's say you compose a song and I use your song in my program. If you don't like it, can you sue me for using the song without your permission? Technically I don't make money from it. But it's still not ok for not asking you first, isn't it?

Click to expand...

As an artist, you will most likely be in some type of contract with a company that manages your royalty claims. In Germany that is the GEMA, in the US ASCAP at Canada SOCAN. This means that they will give you money, whenever someone plays your music and you give them a cut for their service. Because of this, you can not deny someone else the right to play your music, if they hold their part of the bargain which is paying the company, that later pays you.

It is important to say though, that you need to list your work with the company. They can only "protect" what they know exists.

lappo said:

I'm interested because I really don't know how it works in figure skating and I always thought that they should seek permission to use the music, even if it's not used to make a profit. I can tell you for certain that it works like that for images when you have to publish them for academical reason (you don't get a penny from the article, book and so on but you still have to ask permission from the original source, sometimes you have to pay for it and you have to file a document where you declare that any wrongful use of image is your own fault and not the editor's...at least in my country). For this reason I always thought that a permission was needed to use the music, since I guess that music copyright rules could possibly be stricter than image right's for academical purposes with all the money involved in the music market. But apparently this is not the case.

Click to expand...

The "permission" is your contract as a location, TV channel, ice rink owner ... with the company that handles the artist rights. As a skater / composer of music, it only becomes an issue if you would "alter" the music of another artist in a very certain way, so that the original piece of work might be ruined, exposed etc. At this point you could deny them the right to use your music.

In Germany we had the case in 99 when a video of Loona, had to be redone, as the original author of the melody (Grönemayer) , felt it was inappropriate to have half naked ladies dance there, so he demanded a different style if they wanted to keep the permission to use said original melody.

It is important to note though, that copyrights can expire over time / be transferred to someone new. Let´s take the example of Beethoven for a second.

He is obviously not able to be a member of a rights managing company, as he has died almost 200 years ago and 70 years is the threshold for copyright protection of artists. Therefore, you can play his music if you arrange it by yourself. The notes are freely available on the internet so get on your PC and create your own version of the moonlight sonata. If you do this, then you become the owner of your creation and if now someone plays your "rework", then he needs your permission.

I wouldn´t be surprised if this is actually pretty common in FS with the use of classical music. The skaters ask someone who can arrange music and e voila, they have a unique piece of music for their programs.