Does a piece of music 'belong' to a favourite skater?

[TallyT]

This arose on the other thread about favourite pieces by favourite skaters, so I thought I'd ask... are there pieces of music (or more than one or two, say) that for good or not are so uniquely and completely connected with one skater that it is pretty much impossible for anyone else to use them without being immediately overshadowed by memories of the original? (Homages not included, small beginners earnestly skating to their idol's music/similar costumes is simply adorable and good for the soul and must be encouraged). AKA are there any anti-warhorses? Because Bolero was mentioned, and immediately it became clear that even it has more than one iconic image in people's minds.

(Yes, I thought of Seimei. It is likely that any others would have to be unique and unusual pieces of music as well as iconic or at least never forgotten performances of them. Any others?)

 

[Jeanie19]

No music belongs to any skater. Some music will make you think of an iconic performance, but no. Riverdance I think of Jason Brown, but I like others too. W.E. I love Evgenia's program, and I love the music so much I hope more skaters skate to it. Evgenia has some great costumes, but I like when others copy it and I know she does too because she acknowledges them in an Insta story.
In this shirt, I think of Kevin.
And if I love the music, I like lots of different skaters skating to it.
We can't help but compare and think a particular skater has such a great performance to that music , but it still can be used again.

 

[Jeanie19]

This arose on the other thread about favourite pieces by favourite skaters, so I thought I'd ask... are there pieces of music (or more than one or two, say) that for good or not are so uniquely and completely connected with one skater that it is pretty much impossible for anyone else to use them without being immediately overshadowed by memories of the original? (Homages not included, small beginners earnestly skating to their idol's music/similar costumes is simply adorable and good for the soul and must be encouraged). AKA are there any anti-warhorses? Because Bolero was mentioned, and immediately it became clear that even it has more than one iconic image in people's minds.

(Yes, I thought of Seimei. It is likely that any others would have to be unique and unusual pieces of music as well as iconic or at least never forgotten performances of them. Any others?)

Seimei, will always be thought of as Yuzuru's, but I still think its okay if another skater skates to it.

 

[TallyT]

Oh I know they can, but there are probably a few that other skaters shy away from because the comparisons (and feeling of being in the shadow) are so intense... I googled 'Fields of Gold' for instance and although I don't know that noone else has skated it (in fact, going into the composer's website, some have), only one name and one person's pictures come up. Pages and pages and pages of one name and one person's pictures. Obviously it doesn't belong to her, but does it 'belong' as is in so synonymous with that every performance by anyone would bring them up.




with

 

[DoubleBass]

This arose on the other thread about favourite pieces by favourite skaters, so I thought I'd ask... are there pieces of music (or more than one or two, say) that for good or not are so uniquely and completely connected with one skater that it is pretty much impossible for anyone else to use them without being immediately overshadowed by memories of the original? (Homages not included, small beginners earnestly skating to their idol's music/similar costumes is simply adorable and good for the soul and must be encouraged). AKA are there any anti-warhorses? Because Bolero was mentioned, and immediately it became clear that even it has more than one iconic image in people's minds.

(Yes, I thought of Seimei. It is likely that any others would have to be unique and unusual pieces of music as well as iconic or at least never forgotten performances of them. Any others?)

I think it's possible to redefine any piece of music in figure skating, in which case your version can become iconic as well, but it has to be completely different from the original and perhaps wasnt even inspired by the original performance, so it has now become its own world in a way and an icon for many people.

 

[Mathematician]

There are definitely examples where a certain performance overshadows others and most likely will for a long time. To me there's endless examples and I don't think theres anything wrong with accepting that a certain performer just so happened to fit a song and choreo in a really special way; its not demeaning any other performances or skaters.

The thing is, its not always just because the skater was that "good" or the performance is better than what anyone else could do. Its also about the atmosphere that just so happened to be in the crowd or event that day, or the story behind a program/skater, etc... there's lots more to the iconicness of a program than just the skating in and of itself.

Everyone was disagreeing with me earier about this, but I still hold the position that in single's skating Valieva's bolero is too special to be replicated on the same level. Her choreo was too unique, and her opening sequence is so iconic to me. It has everything: expression, technicality, personality, and so on. Further, its not only the skating of Valieva which makes me feel so strongly - its really the general atmosphere of that time. She was everything during that period of figure skating and I think her Bolero stood out as exceptionally unique, although I know many don't see it that way. The Olympics disaster moreso even elevated the cultural profundity of that program - it means a lot now historically to me.

But in general, this topic is rather subjective and personal. And, with time all things are forgotten: eventually the programs of old will die out and new skates will become iconic again.

 

[gkelly]

Everyone was disagreeing with me earier about this, but I still hold the position that in single's skating Valieva's bolero is too special to be replicated on the same level. Her choreo was too unique, and her opening sequence is so iconic to me. It has everything: expression, technicality, personality, and so on. Further, its not only the skating of Valieva which makes me feel so strongly - its really the general atmosphere of that time. She was everything during that period of figure skating and I think her Bolero stood out as exceptionally unique, although I know many don't see it that way. The Olympics disaster moreso even elevated the cultural profundity of that program - it means a lot now historically to me.

If you put "to me" at the end of every sentence not just the last one, no one can disagree. Clearly, it did mean all this to you.

But in general, this topic is rather subjective and personal.

Exactly.

Different fans may have different experiences of the same performance, and different associations with the same music.

I don't think we can generalize our own experience to claim that everyone else must have felt the same way.

And, with time all things are forgotten: eventually the programs of old will die out and new skates will become iconic again.

Yes. People who experienced an important performance in real time will have stronger associations (positive or otherwise) with it than those who come to the performance after the fact via video.

Cultural context also makes a difference. E.g., if you watch a skater from your own country contend for an Olympic medal with TV commentators cheering them on, that will make for a different experience than that of fans from the closest rival's country rooting for said rival.

Or if the choice of music has cultural resonance beyond the specifics of what the skater brings to it on the ice.

And so on.

The latter makes me think of another question, but I think it belongs in a different thread so as not to derail this one.

 

[Carol1]

This thread title immediately made me think of Tonya Harding's sensational "People Are Still Having Sex" program, but I'm not aware that anyone else has used that particular song. If they did, it would be hard to outdo Tonya, but I can't say it would be impossible.

 

[Mathematician]

If you put "to me" at the end of every sentence not just the last one, no one can disagree. Clearly, it did mean all this to you.

Ultimately most things are opinion, but I don't like hiding behind that too much because it can kill a lot of meaningful debate/discussion.

If anyone has strong disagreements with my feelings about Valieva's Bolero I'd like to hear them. Then again, I've probably heard them all already; I'm well aware at this point many are not a fan of this program and consider it overrated for many reasons.

Yes. People who experienced an important performance in real time will have stronger associations (positive or otherwise) with it than those who come to the performance after the fact via video.

Cultural context also makes a difference. E.g., if you watch a skater from your own country contend for an Olympic medal with TV commentators cheering them on, that will make for a different experience than that of fans from the closest rival's country rooting for said rival.

Or if the choice of music has cultural resonance beyond the specifics of what the skater brings to it on the ice.

This is a good point especially. I guess Valieva's journey means a lot to me because I am Russian. I am not particularly nationalistic or proud, but the cultural impact Valieva has had in this culture is hard to understand from the outside - so I guess that has a lot to do with how profound my interpretation of her Bolero has been.

 

[Mathman]

I have to admit that when Jason Brown did Riverdance my first reaction was, hey, he's ripping off Bourne and Kraaatz.

When Irina Slutskaya skated to Tosca in 2002 Michelle Kwan was so impressed with the music that she consciously worked up her own version for the 2003-2004 season. Too bad we didn't get to see dualing Totentanzes at the 2006 Olympics.

Somerone once posted a video to You- ube taken at a skating rink during a grpup practice session. The loudspeaker started playing Lyra Angelica. Every skater spontaneously started miming Michelle's program in unison,

 

[Mathman]

The weird thing about Bolero is that the music itself is highly controversial as to its musical merit. Ravel himself said that it is "music without any misic." That is, just a (seemingly endless) repetition of the same simple theme with no development, just a gradual piling on of orchestration. In public performances Ravel preferred a backdrop of a smoky factory in the distance, representing the robotic banality of modern life.

But audiences couldn't get enough. It remains the composer's most celebrated work by far.

 

[el henry]

Stating an opinion as a fact weakens the argument, because it sounds as though no other options are known or have been considered. I find it easier to disregard those arguments. To me, of course.

No one "owns" music. But Kamila Valieva did not change the very nature of her discipline, no matter how moved someone may have been by her performance. Any of her performances. She did not change her discipline (well, not in a way we can discuss here).

Torvill and Dean changed the discipline. Skating to one, uninterrrupted piece of music, in a world of jarring cuts, was remarkable. I am stating that as a fact because whatever you think of their performance, that is a fact.

So without further ado

 

[TT_Fin]

I always remember Rika Hongo when somebody chooses or even mentiones Riverdance. But If the skater(s) have not composed the music or made a mixed version by him/her/themselves, my clear answer is no. Some music makes an association to a certain skater and program, but it can happen in any place. Many music is too much overused but I like to see different versions of those not used so often.

 

[TT_Fin]

Torvill and Dean changed the discipline. Skating to one, uninterrrupted piece of music, in a world of jarring cuts, was remarkable. I am stating that as a fact because whatever you think of their performance, that is a fact.

So without further ado

And Piper and Paul fid the same with Don't cry for me Argentina. Overused for years on women but this is what I remember.

 

[TallyT]

Showing my age here, but when Torvill and Dean did that Bolero it was literally everywhere. On the main news - long clips too, not just a soundbyte -and around half the globe. It's still the one that pops up first on the internet, nearly 40 years later. And yet... others were able to refashion it (I wouldn't have liked to be the first to dare, though), which lead to Valieva's revisit.

 

[el henry]

Showing my age here, but when Torvill and Dean did that Bolero it was literally everywhere. On the main news - long clips too, not just a soundbyte -and around half the globe. It's still the one that pops up first on the internet, nearly 40 years later. And yet... others were able to refashion it (I wouldn't have liked to be the first to dare, though), which lead to Valieva's revisit.

I guess I'm showing my age too, but that's too bad. Everyday people on the street in the US of A knew Torvill and Dean, and knew Bolero. Trust me, then and now, most Americans couldn't give the tiniest of hoots about British sports, it had nothing to do with their country of origin (sorry Brits. )

They sold out (or close to it) professional sports arenas across the US. I went to one of those shows. I don't even remember the other skaters, who I am sure were wonderful, because people were going to see Torvill and Dean.

And that is in *addition* to changing the sport, because I think most people attending didn't quite realize how different what they had done was.

Quite the phenomenon.

 

[DoubleBass]

Stating an opinion as a fact weakens the argument, because it sounds as though no other options are known or have been considered. I find it easier to disregard those arguments. To me, of course.

No one "owns" music. But Kamila Valieva did not change the very nature of her discipline, no matter how moved someone may have been by her performance. Any of her performances. She did not change her discipline (well, not in a way we can discuss here).

Torvill and Dean changed the discipline. Skating to one, uninterrrupted piece of music, in a world of jarring cuts, was remarkable. I am stating that as a fact because whatever you think of their performance, that is a fact.

So without further ado

You can make that same argument in music, has anyone changed the music industry in the last 20 years the way the Beatles or Elvis Presley did for rock and then Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd for progressive rock or MJ for pop music etc? No, why? Because no matter what you do nowadays it has already been done before, in some way, so it's impossible to make that same impact.
But I actually believe Kamila's Bolero has indeed changed the very nature of her discipline by bridging artistic and technical aspects of ladies figure skating, the way her teammates before her couldn't, the program is extremely detailed, complex, filled with transitions, yet it's flowy and is very watchable/appears easy on the eyes and it was a work in progress for two full seasons that should have culminated at the Olympics, thus becoming a logical conclusion to the boom in ladies figure skating on a technical level. I can bet you no other figure skater can even do the beginning pose the she does it by locking fingers behind her back and then pulling her arm above the head while keeping fingers locked, which is basically a witchcraft, and that's just a beginning pose. Bolero by Kamila in her Olympic season has changed the discipline by becoming the program that cannot be superseded, at least realistically under the current system and probably will never be eclipsed. Because to do that you'd need to add a 5th ultra c jump, land them all and get +4s on average from the judges for each element in the program, while at the same time you need to be the best spinner in history, get 10s in skating skills, musical interpretation and transitions, so yeah it is a historically groundbreaking program that holds a world record for the highest score and also btw it is the most viewed video of all time on Eurosport YouTube channel (team event)

 

[Mathematician]

You can make that same argument in music, has anyone changed the music industry in the last 20 years the way the Beatles or Elvis Presley did for rock and then Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd for progressive rock or MJ for pop music etc? No, why? Because no matter what you do nowadays it has already been done before, in some way, so it's impossible to make that same impact.
But I actually believe Kamila's Bolero has indeed changed the very nature of her discipline by bridging artistic and technical aspects of ladies figure skating, the way her teammates before her couldn't, the program is extremely detailed, complex, filled with transitions, yet it's flowy and is very watchable/appears easy on the eyes and it was a work in progress for two full seasons that should have culminated at the Olympics, thus becoming a logical conclusion to the boom in ladies figure skating on a technical level. I can bet you no other figure skater can even do the beginning pose the she does it by locking fingers behind her back and then pulling her arm above the head while keeping fingers locked, which is basically a witchcraft, and that's just a beginning pose. Bolero by Kamila in her Olympic season has changed the discipline by becoming the program that cannot be superseded, at least realistically under the current system and probably will never be eclipsed. Because to do that you'd need to add a 5th ultra c jump, land them all and get +4s on average from the judges for each element in the program, while at the same time you need to be the best spinner in history, get 10s in skating skills, musical interpretation and transitions, so yeah it is a historically groundbreaking program that holds a world record for the highest score and also btw it is the most viewed video of all time on Eurosport YouTube channel

Incredible post.
@LolaSkatesInJapan take a read of the masterpiece this man just wrote on QUEEN Valieva.



VALIEVA FOREVER!!

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

There are definitely examples where a certain performance overshadows others and most likely will for a long time. To me there's endless examples and I don't think theres anything wrong with accepting that a certain performer just so happened to fit a song and choreo in a really special way; its not demeaning any other performances or skaters.

The thing is, its not always just because the skater was that "good" or the performance is better than what anyone else could do. Its also about the atmosphere that just so happened to be in the crowd or event that day, or the story behind a program/skater, etc... there's lots more to the iconicness of a program than just the skating in and of itself.

Everyone was disagreeing with me earier about this, but I still hold the position that in single's skating Valieva's bolero is too special to be replicated on the same level. Her choreo was too unique, and her opening sequence is so iconic to me. It has everything: expression, technicality, personality, and so on. Further, its not only the skating of Valieva which makes me feel so strongly - its really the general atmosphere of that time. She was everything during that period of figure skating and I think her Bolero stood out as exceptionally unique, although I know many don't see it that way. The Olympics disaster moreso even elevated the cultural profundity of that program - it means a lot now historically to me.

But in general, this topic is rather subjective and personal. And, with time all things are forgotten: eventually the programs of old will die out and new skates will become iconic again.

Maybe many people disagreed with you, it doesn't surprise me at all, but I completely agree with you. Kamila's Bolero is definitely iconic in every way, and I wholeheartedly agree with every single example you gave to support this. The quality of her skating skills, the fantastic choreography and how she interpreted it, her dress for this program and how it evolved, and personally it means a lot to me because I watched it in person so it was even more beautiful in person than in the TV.

I don't watch couples or men and not very interested in the disciplines, my main interest is women's singles because it's the discipline that I train too and I think that performance did set a higher standard which was previously maybe Yulia's Schindler's list.

Of course this is only my opinion, I completely agree with you, but opinions are opinions, people agree or disagree, doesn't mean it's wrong or right.
Of course the music doesn't belong to her, if belongs to anyone, then to Ravel who composed it, but listen to it for 2 seconds, automatically think of Kamila and her performance.

 

[Sabsi]

Yuna Kim „Danse Macabre“ and „Sherazade“. I hate it, when other skaters perform to that music, because there will be no one who will even come close to her.