Music and its source material

How much do you think a skater needs to keep to the source their music comes from? Obviously this only applies if the source is a movie, musical, ballet or opera. Does the skater’s interpretation need to mirror the story of the overall piece or even just the moment the music comes from?
Taking some thoughts from other threads:
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• Does the skater need to portray a specific character? Or is it enough to just go with the emotion (e.g. it’s a sad song, so express sadness)? I think it is okay to portray a character or tell a story, but I don’t think the skater should feel obligated to do so. I also think this can be accomplished without pantomime or “acting out” the story.
• If the skater is not choosing to stick closely to the source material, does he/she/they need to know what the source material is? For example, skating to La La Land even though he/she/they have never seen the movie.
• Some people in another thread voiced disapproval of using Miss Saigon because of how it portrays Asian women. I’ve never seen that show, but my impression was always that it was not an attempt to PROMOTE that behavior, but rather to call attention to how horrible that is. Similarly, South Pacific was mentioned due to the heroine’s initial reaction to the hero having children of mixed race. I think the point is for her to react the way most or many people at the time would have and the audience follows her “journey” to realizing how wrong that initial reaction was. I have no problem with someone using music from a show like this, but a specific song taken out of context of the overall piece might seem to support a different idea. Would/should the skater stay true to that moment in the show, or to the idea/emotions of the whole story? Another example might be Hamilton. The King of England has a couple songs that are snarky and fun, but a skater portraying that character could be construed as unpatriotic or anti-American or something despite the show itself being the opposite. (Not a great example, but the only one I could think of).
• Does a skater needs to adhere to racial/gender? Examples: a man skating to Carmen. Or a non-Asian skating to Miss Saigon.

I personally think it depends on the age of the piece and how well known the piece is. If someone skates to La La Land this season, I would expect them to play some sort of role because those roles haven't already been performed in previous years. Phantom of the Opera, on the other hand, has been overdone and I would hope to see some deviation from the already repeated character programs.

I also think it's important to play to the skater's strengths. Take Carolina, for instance. She's not the best at portraying a character, but she can emote and capture the highs and lows with her skating. So for her, I would say it's best to not perform as the character. Ashley, however, can really capture a character and I think that suits her best.

As for Miss Saigon, I see that being tricky and somewhat offensive if a non-Asian skater tries to portray the characters from Miss Saigon. But if they are just skating to the music, I think it's fine.

I think men skating to pieces that women would usually skate to is great, but the results they want might not be there because it depends on how traditional the judges are. I haven't seen a whole lot of programs in recent years really break from the norm and I think that's because skaters are afraid they won't get scored as highly...

Just my thoughts

sammyott said:

I personally think it depends on the age of the piece and how well known the piece is. If someone skates to La La Land this season, I would expect them to play some sort of role because those roles haven't already been performed in previous years. Phantom of the Opera, on the other hand, has been overdone and I would hope to see some deviation from the already repeated character programs.

I also think it's important to play to the skater's strengths. Take Carolina, for instance. She's not the best at portraying a character, but she can emote and capture the highs and lows with her skating. So for her, I would say it's best to not perform as the character. Ashley, however, can really capture a character and I think that suits her best.

As for Miss Saigon, I see that being tricky and somewhat offensive if a non-Asian skater tries to portray the characters from Miss Saigon. But if they are just skating to the music, I think it's fine.

I think men skating to pieces that women would usually skate to is great, but the results they want might not be there because it depends on how traditional the judges are. I haven't seen a whole lot of programs in recent years really break from the norm and I think that's because skaters are afraid they won't get scored as highly...

Just my thoughts

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And someone skating to the Phantom of the opera without trying to be the Phantom or the singer... I can't think of anyone. They have been too literal.

music doesn't have to be skated to in a literal way. Some people are doing it... fine... I prefer when a skater moves in synch with the powerful moments of the music and uses care and refinement in the more intimate sections...

Here's a great example of someone doing it to POTO without ever portraying the character....

4everchan said:

music doesn't have to be skated to in a literal way. Some people are doing it... fine... I prefer when a skater moves in synch with the powerful moments of the music and uses care and refinement in the more intimate sections...

Here's a great example of someone doing it to POTO without every portraying the character....

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And somehow I feel like he can skate the same choreography with a different background music and it might suit better. It's just the choreography or it's just his skating...

Ender said:

And somehow I feel like he can skate the same choreography with a different background music and it might suit better. It's just the choreography or it's just his skating...

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then i invite you to watch all Patrick's programs. Yes... All. Because each one of them relates to the music in a specific and appropriate way.

That year, his short program was take 5... completely different style of skating...steps and turns were specifically showcasing the music. Very big contrast with POTO. His Elegy is completely different from both of these as well, using the long lyrical phrases with long gliding on the ice.... the 4 seasons is extremely passionate and fiery, matching the strings. His Chopin is very much in style with his light feet on the fast 16 note sections, while in the E minor prelude, he uses his body to portray the lyricism of the piece... and of course, maybe it's closer in memory to you as it is this year, but his beatles medley is incredibly lighthearted in its choreography in contrast with deep, intimate, emotional characterization in his Journey...

I could have mentioned Esqualo for a passionate and effective Tango, Aranjuez, Butterfly.... all great programs Patrick had over the years... or even Mack the Knife which did have lyrics though Patrick didn't skate literally to the character of the story teller, or wasn't Mack the Knife himself, a serial killer... what he took from Mack the Knife was simply "is back in town" as an inspiration for his return to competition, in a jazzy version of Kurt Weill's classic.

I am not sure why you are saying what you just wrote, unless you just really want to belittle Patrick.... one of the best skaters IMHO when it comes to musical expression that comes from the entire body, from the blades to the fingertips, without needing to act, portray, pantomine or anything.... a true artist.

4everchan said:

then i invite you to watch all Patrick's programs. Yes... All. Because each one of them relates to the music in a specific and appropriate way.

That year, his short program was take 5... completely different style of skating...steps and turns were specifically showcasing the music. Very big contrast with POTO. His Elegy is a completely different from both of these as well, using the long lyrical phrases with long gliding on the ice.... the 4 seasons is extremely passionate and fiery, matching the strings. His Chopin is very much in style with his light feet on the fast 16 note sections, while in the E minor prelude, he uses his body to portray the lyricism of the piece... and of course, maybe it's closer in memory to you as it is this year, but his beatles medley is incredibly lighthearted in its choreography in contrast with deep, intimate, emotional characterization in his Journey...

I could have mentioned Esqualo for a passionate and effective Tango, Aranjuez, Butterfly.... all great programs Patrick had over the years... or even Mack the Knife which did have lyrics though Patrick didn't skate literally the character of the story teller, or wasn't Mack the Knife himself, a serial killer...

I am not sure why you are saying what you just wrote, unless you just really want to belittle Patrick.... one of the best skaters IMHO when it comes to musical expression that comes from the entire body, from the blades to the fingertips, without needing to act, portray, pantomine or anything.... a true artist.

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I am not sure why you are assuming that I think that Chan isn't good at expressing music. I did watch many of Chan's programs. And some of his programs were successful to me. Some were monotonous to me. My point was simple, watching his Phantom of the opera program I feel like other music might suit his movements better than that.

Ender said:

I am not sure why you are assuming that I think that Chan isn't good at expressing music. I did watch many of Chan's programs. And some of his programs were successful to me. Some were monotonous to me. My point was simple, watching his Phantom of the opera program I feel like other music might suit his movements better than that.

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I am not assuming anything here.. just going with what you wrote.

The example I have given is considered by many a masterpiece in a non-literal interpretation of a piece that does contain a dramatic track. There is no story telling. There is simply musical characterization at its best... which is one of Patrick's strengths. So your comment, which objects loudly to that, simply makes me wonder. I won't get into a debate here. I have offered an example, if you don't like it, that's fine but perhaps you could offer your own example.

4everchan said:

I am not assuming anything here.. just going with what you wrote.

The example I have given is considered by many a masterpiece in a non-literal interpretation of a piece that does contain a dramatic track. There is no story telling. There is simply musical characterization at its best... which is one of Patrick's strengths. So your comment, which objects loudly to that, simply makes me wonder. I won't get into a debate here. I have offered an example, if you don't like it, that's fine but perhaps you could offer your own example.

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I simply stated that I don't think Phantom of the opera suited Chan's skating. Not that I find it suits other skaters. It's the musical I dislike.

No I don't think skaters should feel obligated to re-enact the story from source material.

I'm interested in the other point in your original post. Is it OK for non-Asians to skate to Miss Saigon? Or similar examples. I don't see why not.

Of course, I don't think racial elements should enter into the arts at all... with some exceptions made for historical accuracy.

For example, I think it would be odd for a white man to portray Martin Luther King. Or a black man to portray Buddha. Or an Asian woman to portray Martha Washington. But then there is theatrical make-up,... And, of course, Othello shouldn't be a Nordic looking man, considering the storyline... although didn't Olivier play Othello?

But, in terms of pure theater (and that includes skating), most anything should go. I don't think it would be odd for a white skater to include excerpts from MLK's "I have a dream" speech. I wouldn't like it, because I don't like voiceovers... but that doesn't mean it would be wrong.

Ender said:

And someone skating to the Phantom of the opera without trying to be the Phantom or the singer... I can't think of anyone. They have been too literal.

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Brain Boitano skated to Music of the Night, and it was powerful and beautiful. I don't recall any particular story to it, it was just skating to a well-constructed program.

The great Katerina Witt skated to Robin hood. She even wore pants in 1994 when they were still frowned upon. I guess it never bothered me. Here's Witt at 1994 Olympics......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmrprWr-kUM

TontoK said:

But, in terms of pure theater (and that includes skating), most anything should go. I don't think it would be odd for a white skater to include excerpts from MLK's "I have a dream" speech. I wouldn't like it, because I don't like voiceovers... but that doesn't mean it would be wrong.

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What do you think of this?

I think skaters/artists from dominant cultures using material from marginalized cultures is a more complicated subject than "never OK" or "never a problem," that might get political and take this thread in a specific direction representing only part of the original question. Do we want to tease out the nuances?

In general, I see no reason why skaters shouldn't use music that comes from a source with a storyline but just use the music for its musical value.

Or make up their own storyline that goes with the music if not the original source, e.g., The Right Stuff(?)

Certainly skaters often use music from multiple sources in the same program, which may have its own theme not related to the sources, e.g., Hindu war god

If the music is closely associated in public imagination with the original storyline/subject matter/character, it does behoove the skater to know where the music came from and that at least some segment of the audience and judging panel will already have some specific associations with it.

However, if music was composed for one purpose and then gained fame associated with a later use (e.g., if a movie popularizes a particular piece of classical music), especially if the original source was more popular at one era or national culture and the later use in a different one, there's always the possibility that parts of the audience who are much older or younger or from a different part of the world will bring different associations than the skater had in mind.

Fans and commentators should not leap to the assumption that because a skater is using music from a movie/opera/ballet/musical comedy, etc., with a person's name in the title that the skater must be portraying that character. If the title is not a name, we'd be more inclined to consider that the skater might be using the source material in a different way (portraying one of several characters, or more than one character, or just a general mood or theme), so why not with name-titled works?

In general, I think we should try to find out what the skater and choreographer were aiming for before passing judgment, and not make assumptions based on titles or a later work that used and popularized an older piece of music, for example.

mrrice said:

The great Katerina Witt skated to Robin hood. She even wore pants in 1994 when they were still frowned upon. I guess it never bothered me. Here's Witt at 1994 Olympics......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmrprWr-kUM

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It was allowed because the way her "shirt" was cut it was like she had a skirt on.

Hi, gkelly. Referring to your post just a little before this. I'm fine with discussing sensitive issues and their relationship to our sport. I think the only safe spaces should be FanFests.

The ice dancers use of MLK is fine by me. To be honest, I didn't remember it, although maybe it was buried deep since I brought up that specific example. I don't like voiceovers, but I also don't think it's inappropriate.

But remember the Aboriginal program? I thought that crossed a line - not because of the music, but because of the costuming. Just to be contrary, I probably wouldn't have minded if they skated to it semi-nude with real and authentic body paints. But the polyester suits with their faux painting were clownish and disrespectful of a culture that deserves better. Just one man's opinion.

If they had even skated the exact same program in neutral body suits, I would have been fine with it.

TontoK said:

But remember the Aboriginal program? I thought that crossed a line - not because of the music, but because of the costuming. Just to be contrary, I probably wouldn't have minded if they skated to it semi-nude with real and authentic body paints. But the polyester suits with their faux painting were clownish and disrespectful of a culture that deserves better. Just one man's opinion.

If they had even skated the exact same program in neutral body suits, I would have been fine with it.

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Dominina/Shabalin's program was a racist disgrace and there should have been some sort of actual repercussion. But of course, tiny powerless Australian fed vs big powerful Russian fed was only going end one way.

O'Brien/Merriman spent a whole year working with local Aboriginal elders and communities in order to produce an authentic, inoffensive, sanctioned OD that was a true work of art, so artful that they repeated it.

2008 Worlds

2010 Four Continents

So it could be done right - if the Russians weren't so damn lazy.

^^ do not forget where the 2010 games were held.

BC and Vancouver are working towards reconciliation with native populations.. It's a priority in Canada...nothing is perfect but the loud and negative response of many Canadians towards that program, including the medias was a huge factor...You are asking for repercussions, there were some, including that they did not win.

4everchan said:

You are asking for repercussions, there were some, including that they did not win.

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They won an Olympic medal. That's not a repercussion!

karne said:

They won an Olympic medal. That's not a repercussion!

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Karne, not to pick at a scab... but what bothered you the most? The costumes or the interpretation?

For me, it was the costuming. I've just rewatched the program (well, tbh, just a bit; I couldn't stomach the rest), and it didn't seem authentic, but I'm almost falling on the side of that being an artistic disconnect. Meaning, I didn't like it, but could concede that's a matter of choice.

But those ridiculous, over the top costumes. It was like watching someone skate in blackface.

karne said:

They won an Olympic medal. That's not a repercussion!

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well, they were favourite for gold coming in as world champions.

I think that the athletes were misguided but how much of an input did they have in selecting that program? seriously, i hated the program but instead of hating the athletes i felt sorry for them. what a wrong choice from their team.... in Canada.. really?