10-year-old Stephen Gogolev lands 4S

[Rissa]

The growth plates in a young boy don't become mature until age 14-17. He risks life long problems if he has a severe injury to these. I have lost all respect for Orser. He's on track to be the new Tom Z.

Because he let a talented student land a quad?

Let's not write the kid (and Orser) off just yet, shall we?

Yuzuru Hanyu has shown up to the last 3 World championships under Orser while injured and was also allowed to compete with a concussion at CoC. Says a lot about Orser.

Javier Fernandez has escaped serious injury because of his tendency to not overtrain, which is something Orser should be enforcing on all his skaters. But if they get him results, why not? It's their body, not his.

His statement after CoC made it seem his skaters are the ones in charge and not him.

I can't tell whether you are serious or not, especially in the light of the last sentence.

Liza stopped training 3As for a couple years because she was undergoing puberty and Mishin didn't want her to further injure herself.

Who knows, perhaps this is going to be TCC's approach.

I'm curiously, was anybody as horrified at the fact that pre-puberty Liza was allowed to jump 3As as people are with Gogolev's quad?

 

[gravy]

I can't tell whether you are serious or not, especially in the light of the last sentence.

If your skater blacks out on the ice and you tell him not to be a hero and not to skate and he does anyway, it doesn't really speak much of your authority over them, does it?

 

[Rissa]

If your skater blacks out on the ice and you tell him not to be a hero and not to skate and he does anyway, it doesn't really speak much of your authority over them, does it?

Lol, I did think you were questioning Orser's influence over Hanyu but sometime it's hard to tell here. Yes, Hanyu's obsession and stubborness deserve full credit. Orser's not pushing his skaters at all cost but there's only so much he can do in certain cases.

 

[karne]

I still maintain that Hanyu and Han should have been physically restrained if necessary.

Joshua Farris got osteochondritis dissecans at 14 - and he was only landing 3Lz-3T at the time. I can't imagine the sort of wreck a 4S does on a ten year old's joints.

If the coach wasn't wonderful precious Orser, I'd wager the reaction in here would be massively different.

 

[kresslia]

The growth plates in a young boy don't become mature until age 14-17. He risks life long problems if he has a severe injury to these. I have lost all respect for Orser. He's on track to be the new Tom Z.

lol the hyperbole in here is amazing

 

[Sandpiper]

To put another perspective on it, Plushenko hit 3A at 11, and 4T at 13.

That's older than this kid - and Plushy, of course, is broken into smithereens at this point, held together by his willpower. The injury risk this kid now faces is huge and the prospect of him wrecking his joints is very real.

To be fair, in Plushenko's day, rehabilitation/rest/medical care wasn't really emphasized. They just trained and trained like crazy. Plushenko also kept competing into his 30s, which would wreck havoc on anyone. (A more alarming example from his era would probably be Timothy Goebel, who self-admittedly did 50+ quads a day and ended up broken down by his mid-twenties.)

I agree with you in principle that 10 is much too young and I'm worried about the kid. But I don't think it's quite the same situation as the 2002 generation faced.

 

[Skater Boy]

I still maintain that Hanyu and Han should have been physically restrained if necessary.

Joshua Farris got osteochondritis dissecans at 14 - and he was only landing 3Lz-3T at the time. I can't imagine the sort of wreck a 4S does on a ten year old's joints.

If the coach wasn't wonderful precious Orser, I'd wager the reaction in here would be massively different.

if we the people stop treating such behaviour as heroic maybe future generations will stop and think before trying to be what society often deems as heroic behaviour. I don't wish hanyu bad but had he ended up with permanent injuries then maybe the lesson would have been taught.

 

[Interspectator]

if we the people stop treating such behaviour as heroic maybe future generations will stop and think before trying to be what society often deems as heroic behaviour. I don't wish hanyu bad but had he ended up with permanent injuries then maybe the lesson would have been taught.

There have already been enough permanent injuries in figures skating to compile a 3-volume novel's worth of cautionary tales. I'm quite glad Yuzu and Hanee did not sustain permanent injuries. The lesson was taught all the same. I don't remember anyone calling them heroes or heroic except in a negative sense by those who did not agree with their actions. Really, who said they were heroes for their actions at COC?
But back on topic; I'm impressed by Stephen's jumps, they are very good. I wish him the best of health and sensible grown-ups in charge who can slow him down if he needs it. (hand wringing from us will not change his training after all)

 

[Meoima]

if we the people stop treating such behaviour as heroic maybe future generations will stop and think before trying to be what society often deems as heroic behaviour. I don't wish hanyu bad but had he ended up with permanent injuries then maybe the lesson would have been taught.

Even in their fan threads fans call them idiots for what they have done, and those are from people who care much for them. I don't recall anyone here call them heroic other than some antis who always say their fans worship that action while in fact their fans were deadly worried.

Their true fans were terrified by the reckless action.

 

[alia jackson]

All the best for Stephen, and please stay healthy.

Off-topic: Every time there is a slightest window of opportunity, a certain six posters will never fail to knock down a skater :disapp: and some of them were called upon before.

 

[Rissa]

If the coach wasn't wonderful precious Orser, I'd wager the reaction in here would be massively different.

I don't think it would... People would still complain even if half of it wasn't driven by irrational anti-Orser bias.

 

[Krunchii]

There have already been enough permanent injuries in figures skating to compile a 3-volume novel's worth of cautionary tales. I'm quite glad Yuzu and Hanee did not sustain permanent injuries. The lesson was taught all the same. I don't remember anyone calling them heroes or heroic except in a negative sense by those who did not agree with their actions. Really, who said they were heroes for their actions at COC?
But back on topic; I'm impressed by Stephen's jumps, they are very good. I wish him the best of health and sensible grown-ups in charge who can slow him down if he needs it. (hand wringing from us will not change his training after all)

On Tumblr there was a lot of fans calling Yuzuru heroic for continuing on and there was even fanart about it. Like they really romanticized it and I really wanted to knock some sense into them.

I'm curiously, was anybody as horrified at the fact that pre-puberty Liza was allowed to jump 3As as people are with Gogolev's quad?

Well for the ladies you pretty much have to get all your jumps before puberty, Very few have learned jumps later on in their career (I'm not sure I even know of any), it's just that it's a good thing Mishin didn't push her and she stopped training it for a while, she did get injured, but it wasn't due to the 3A

For the men it's different, they can learn new jumps in adulthood so a quad at 10 is little bit too ahead

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yuzuru Hanyu has shown up to the last 3 World championships under Orser while injured and was also allowed to compete with a concussion at CoC. Says a lot about Orser.

Javier Fernandez has escaped serious injury because of his tendency to not overtrain, which is something Orser should be enforcing on all his skaters. But if they get him results, why not? It's their body, not his.

His statement after CoC made it seem his skaters are the ones in charge and not him.

Orser clearly doesn't want his students to hurt themselves but ultimately, the choice is with the skater as to whether or not they want to compete. Hanyu is not the only skater who has competed with injuries, but because he's more prolific we tend to hear about his injuries more than second-tier skaters competing with injuries.

I know people are concerned about Gogolev, but Sandpiper made a good point - this isn't 2002.. a lot of advancements in medical treatment and therapies and more attention is paid to the health of the skater.

I mean, I'm pretty sure a triple axel also wreaks havoc on a young skater's body, so should Gogolev avoid that and solely practice everything up to a 3Z?

 

[moriel]

On Tumblr there was a lot of fans calling Yuzuru heroic for continuing on and there was even fanart about it. Like they really romanticized it and I really wanted to knock some sense into them.



Well for the ladies you pretty much have to get all your jumps before puberty, Very few have learned jumps later on in their career (I'm not sure I even know of any), it's just that it's a good thing Mishin didn't push her and she stopped training it for a while, she did get injured, but it wasn't due to the 3A

For the men it's different, they can learn new jumps in adulthood so a quad at 10 is little bit too ahead

Well, men just grow slower, so their "no return" point after which it gets very hard to get new jumps is later than for ladies.
Also, for men, the body changes less drastically during puberty, so that may give some time too.

 

[gmyers]

The idea of not doing something because of potential injury or later problems is totally unathletic! Any athlete pushes bounds that might become actually unhealthy. He's 10 and what's being said about quads could be said about doing many many triples. Overdoing it can be a risking too much but that can be true of so much. Too much fear and then he's 20 and Never done it.

 

[cruzceleste]

You know, Borser has made statement saying that he let Yuzuru practice new quads as a reward after trainning and even so is very controled.

Maybe is the same with this kid.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The idea of not doing something because of potential injury or later problems is totally unathletic! Any athlete pushes bounds that might become actually unhealthy. He's 10 and what's being said about quads could be said about doing many many triples. Overdoing it can be a risking too much but that can be true of so much. Too much fear and then he's 20 and Never done it.

I totally agree. At least he builds the confidence that he can land a quad... like Liza, it might take him some time to bust it out, but there's always the knowledge that you can do it which will help Stephen down the line.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think it would... People would still complain even if half of it wasn't driven by irrational anti-Orser bias.

Well such is the forum... I'd wager that some of those complaining about Gogolev's quad are also complaining that Jason Brown doesn't have one yet.

 

[Sabrina]

I am not a specialist, but I have a medical background and I am sure that both triple jumps and quadruples have torque forces too big for a human body, especially when repetition exceeds some limits. Thats why most of the well known skaters have quite important injuries. One close example is in Canada with both Gaby Daleman and Kaetlin Osmond. And I doubt they try many quadruples...I know they are girls...but they could be more powerful than a 10 years old boy. End they are not alone. The same goes for gymnastics.
I love figure skating, but it is a cruel world...

 

[Interspectator]

I am not a specialist, but I have a medical background and I am sure that both triple jumps and quadruples have torque forces too big for a human body, especially when repetition exceeds some limits. Thats why most of the well known skaters have quite important injuries. One close example is in Canada with both Gaby Daleman and Kaetlin Osmond. And I doubt they try many quadruples...I know they are girls...but they could be more powerful than a 10 years old boy. End they are not alone. The same goes for gymnastics.
I love figure skating, but it is a cruel world...

I agree! There is no 'healthy' way to gain a quad...there is a the path of least injuries --but injuries are going to happen. :hopelessness: