2014 Rostelecom Cup Ladies Free Skate 11/15

[RABID]

So Yun Park is not in the leaugue of Yulia yet. So Yun never had a program like SL which moved thousands of people not only in Russia. She does not have 3Lz-3T, she struggles with SP, she cannot come up with a clean LP this season. She cannot make it happen. And there are no evil Russians behind that. She could have - she just had to be clean (there is speed issue but let's forget about it now). And she could have grown her points like some others did. The examples are obvious - Misha Ge and Rika Hongo. Until this season he was just a funny overexpressive guy who was 17th in Sochi and 27th in Saitama. The trick is easy - work hard and deliver. He delivered 4 expressive clean programs in a roll. Then he moved his best more than 10 points in China and another 17 points in Moscow. Now he is one of the top guys with pcs combined similar to Jason's. So Yun does not have the luxury to be not clean. She has to earn the reputation. She just cannot yet - may be next season.

I think that is a fair assessment. The good thing we have to take and accept is that right now she is a visibly good skater who stands out, is not prone to meltdowns, places well and at the very least the top skaters can't ignore. That is a good place from which to build a reputation.

 

[Miss Ice]

Well here's a breakdown of the scoresheet for you. I can't answer 'why' exactly they were scored this way (because I disagree with the scores & am not one of the judges), but there is the 'how':

For TES SoYoun's BV was 54.16 vs. Julia's 40.87. SoYoun has a 13.29 lead over Julia at this point.
SoYoun had 2 <, while Julia had 1 <<.
SoYoun's total GOE was +2.41, while Julia's GOE was +3.43. When you add their BV+GOE their TES scores become 56.57 vs. 44.30. SoYoun now had a 12.27 point lead on Julia.

Their individual scores for the 5 program components look like this, SoYoun's first, then Julia's:
Skating Skills--- 6.71 vs. 7.89 (1.18 dif)
Transistions---- 6.25 vs. 7.57 (1.32 dif)
Performance---- 6.75 vs. 7.57 (0.82 dif)
Choreography-- 6.57 vs. 7.93 (1.36 dif)
Interpretation-- 6.82 vs. 7.61 (0.79 dif)
SoYoun got 52.96 while Julia got 61.71 in total PCS.
Julia has a 8.75 point lead on SoYoun here.

Final score- 109.53 for SoYoun, 104.01 for Julia.

Hope I got all the numbers right

eta: Also Julia got a -2 deduction for her two falls..

I see. So PCS makes all the difference, and considering how Julia's choreo was messed up in that LP, and her face was towards the ice 90% of the time with no performance to speak of, while So Youn gave a beautiful and balletic and passionate performance... it makes zero sense.

So Yun Park is not in the leaugue of Yulia yet. So Yun never had a program like SL which moved thousands of people not only in Russia. She does not have 3Lz-3T, she struggles with SP, she cannot come up with a clean LP this season. She cannot make it happen. And there are no evil Russians behind that. She could have - she just had to be clean (there is speed issue but let's forget about it now). And she could have grown her points like some others did. The examples are obvious - Misha Ge and Rika Hongo. Until this season he was just a funny overexpressive guy who was 17th in Sochi and 27th in Saitama. The trick is easy - work hard and deliver. He delivered 4 expressive clean programs in a roll. Then he moved his best more than 10 points in China and another 17 points in Moscow. Now he is one of the top guys with pcs combined similar to Jason's. So Yun does not have the luxury to be not clean. She has to earn the reputation. She just cannot yet - may be next season.

I don't care whose league she is in, I am just comparing two programs. It doesn't matter about your potential or reputation, programs should be judged at face value and on what the skater was able to deliver at the moment rather what they theoretically *may be able* to deliver.

Also, work hard and deliver? Don't make me laugh. A program that has two triple jumps, a messed up step sequence, and zero performance still scoring 4th place? And is almost identical in points to So Youn's nearly clean program of almost 7 triples?

 

[Mathman]

Now that I have seen it on TV, I liked Maria Stavitskaia's skate.

 

[OS]

So Yun Park is not in the leaugue of Yulia yet. So Yun never had a program like SL which moved thousands of people not only in Russia. She does not have 3Lz-3T, she struggles with SP, she cannot come up with a clean LP this season. She cannot make it happen. .

Are you seriously going to put your hands on your heart and tell me in all earnest that
-IF So Youn Park brought her 3lz-3T and did a cleaned LP she has a chance against Julia even with a program like Schindler's list?

I will tell you why Park's program is VASTLY superior to Julia's Schindler's list. Her programs does not depends on if she is a fair haired blue eyed white child tapping onto one of the greatest human tragedies in the 20th century, so many are still finding hard to come in term with, and looks towards the arts (which figure skating out is considered out all the sports) to heal their wounds and to remember. All these factors has nothing to do with her skating or to do with the sport.

Get Yulia to do a credible Romeo and Juliet or Mulan, then you might have some fairer comparison.

 

[Kelly]

So Youn hasn't done a clean SP and clean LP (with 7 triples) back to back yet. In that regard, I think it is fair to say So Youn is not in the league of Yulia yet in the international competition.

 

[OS]

So Youn hasn't done a clean SP and clean LP (with 7 triples) back to back yet. In that regard, I think it is fair to say So Youn is not in the league of Yulia yet in the international competition.

Nor has Julia ... in any case I am asking a hypothetical question. Even with them going clean back to back - 7 triples LP identity content - clean as a whistle - skated their heart, in which ISU competition in this world do you think their mark will even be in the same ball park?

 

[silverlake22]

So Youn's PCS got hurt by skating in the first group. Everyone knows that hurts your PCS. Anna was hardly overscored considering Hongo actually got higher PCS in the FS and Chartrand's were about 1/2 a point lower. In the SP they all were close in PCS too. A stricter caller would have given Anna a ! on the 3f and a < on the second lutz in the FS, but rotation wise the first 3lutz and the 3f were fine. So I could see her maybe scoring 110-112 instead of 114, but the caller was also not that strict on Chartrand, who should have gotten a < on her 3t in the SP. So overall I think the results were right. Anna's skate was messy and far from her best, but I actually think her spins and footwork are quite good, and she got the levels for all of them. Additionally, she had 5 rotated triple jumps (plus the 2nd lutz that got a +REP deduction for not having a combo) and a rotated 2a. The -GOE doesn't hurt your score as much as pops and URs, maybe some people don't agree with that but that's how COP works. Anna went for all her jumps and rotated most of them, the hands down and turn outs, while distracting, are less costly than the 2 foots and URs Alaine and Mirai get. And popping jumps into singles just kills your score even if it's not so disruptive.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Nor has Julia ... in any case I am asking a hypothetical question. Even with them going clean back to back - 7 triples LP identity content - clean as a whistle - skated their heart, in which ISU competition in this world do you think their mark will even be in the same ball park?

I think comparing the two is apples to oranges. For those seeking a pretty elegant skater there is So Youn. I really like her and find her good in a classical sense. Nothing new and exciting but that's ok because she is a great representative of a particular brand of skating that has withstood the test of time.

Yulia on the other hand is brash and full of complex tricks. More of an exciting make your heart race skater. The programs Yulia does are less musical but she makes up for it in intensity and precision. I see room for both in the world of FS and hope to see the diversity continue but for now I think Yulia....without choke factor....is a more impressive skater in almost every aspect of CoP. Saying that I don't like to get involved with PCS battles because to me it's usually just a Personal Connection Score that people will feud endlessly over.

I'll never for the life of me understand all the fandom and how it prevents people from respecting certain skaters. Yet....so many demand it of the judges. I'm going to continue supporting both girls.

FWIW: I know you're not a Yulia basher.

 

[chuckm]

Now that I have seen it on TV, I liked Maria Stavitskaia's skate.

She was so s....l....o.....w --- her music was deliberately slowed down almost to a dirge. And she telegraphed every jump several seconds before she did it.

 

[Mathman]

Still, I liked it.

 

[OS]

I think comparing the two is apples to oranges. For those seeking a pretty elegant skater there is So Youn. I really like her and find her good in a classical sense. Nothing new and exciting but that's ok because she is a great representative of a particular brand of skating that has withstood the test of time.

Yulia on the other hand is brash and full of complex tricks. More of an exciting make your heart race skater. The programs Yulia does are less musical but she makes up for it in intensity and precision. I see room for both in the world of FS and hope to see the diversity continue but for now I think Yulia....without choke factor....is a more impressive skater in almost every aspect of CoP.

I'll never for the life of me understand all the fandom and how it prevents people from respecting certain skaters. Yet....so many demand it of the judges. I'm going to continue supporting both girls.

FWIW: I know you're not a Yulia basher.

I appreciate your 'sort' of answer, because I'd like to think this sport can be a fairer game with refinement of COP system, but the more I read some of those marks this year that is far from what they should be, the more upset I am for skaters. No I'd never bash Yulia (and I like Schindler's list and defended it as a great program for her age, but you have to be honest about why you like something and why something works) I too do recognise those exciting qualities you mentioned that makes her unique (though I do think she over think her SP).

However, do you really think the judges are going to go oh I think Julia deserve 10 more marks is because of her intensity and precision and she is an orange and I like oranges? Or the fact she is Russia #1

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Agree :thumbsup: Being Russia, Japan, or USA no. 1 comes with its perks. :yes:

So Youn may be the type of skater that slowly rises her game little by little and in many ways not facing the pressure of being Russia's elite and all that comes with it she can afford to. Maybe that is the other side of the coin in her advantage. I'm not upset with her placements yet and think she is on a good path to staying relevant and pushing forward. I'd love to see her clean at WC's. It could really stir the if she hits her potential there. So maybe not being a big Feds no. 1 comes with some perks too.

 

[Kelly]

Nor has Julia ... in any case I am asking a hypothetical question. Even with them going clean back to back - 7 triples LP identity content - clean as a whistle - skated their heart, in which ISU competition in this world do you think their mark will even be in the same ball park?

I just checked Yulia's performance in the Sochi Olympics team event on Youtube. She did indeed perform a clean SP and LP (7 triples) back to back.
As to your hypothetical question, my answer is that Yulia probably would win over So Youn because of her accomplishment and reputation etc. It's nothing new that the PCS scores are not free of subjectivity. I got frustration too when I thought the judges were not fair to some skaters that I like.

 

[Meoima]

^ITA. In his newest interview Mishin said something like "It's always like this. At first you are always under-scored. Then when you get the reputation you are often over-scoree even when you skate just so so..." Something like that, I am trying to find the link to the interview but I haven't.

I'd say So Youn should have gotten the bronze at Skate America but well... It's Skate America, without any major contender from the US fed on the podium we might not have Skate America to watch and skaters might not have any competition to participate at all. I think So Youn's time will come, as long as she can prove her consistency and deliver 2 clean programs. Here in CoR, So Youn did well, but not enough to get on the podium.

Rika Hongo is not my taste at all but she delivered 2 clean programs with strong jumps. Before this season most of us had absolutely no clue about her. People might argue that she is from a strong fed but personally I am sure that before this event Japan fed didn't expect her to get a GP medal at all, let alone a gold.

I don't think the scores are fair all the time and we all know, but as long as you skate clean and deliver I think there will be chances. This can be applied to all skaters.

 

[[email protected]]

Are you seriously going to put your hands on your heart and tell me in all earnest that
-IF So Youn Park brought her 3lz-3T and did a cleaned LP she has a chance against Julia even with a program like Schindler's list?

Absolutely, a clean SP with 3Lz-3T, a clean LP skated twice in a roll in international tournaments, and she is above 200 with her current programs. And with such a score she will be around clean Yulia and higher than anyone else this season so far.

I don't care whose league she is in, I am just comparing two programs.
Also, work hard and deliver? Don't make me laugh....

There was a comparison above and she did better technically overall. Yulia lost on jumps but was higher on spins which is obvious - she is a better spinner. She is also faster. I saw So Yun live. She was one of the slowest excluding Stavitskaya. I see a good reason for Yulia's pcs being higher. And repautation is one of them. It has been always like that - a new skater has to prove herself. An accomplished skater has the better second mark no matter what. Hanyu with 5 falls, anyone? To get from a new to an accomplished - not that difficult. Misha Ge: 30 point boost in just half of a season. How? 4 clean programs in a roll.

I'd say So Youn should have gotten the bronze at Skate America but well... It's Skate America, without any major contender from the US fed on the podium we might not have Skate America to watch and skaters might not have any competition to participate at all. I think So Youn's time will come, as long as she can prove her consistency and deliver 2 clean programs. Here in CoR, So Youn did well, but not enough to get on the podium.

I don't think the scores are fair all the time and we all know, but as long as you skate clean and deliver I think there will be chances. This can be applied to all skaters.

You are right as always. And I am may be a little bit bitter as I lost my 15 points having bet on So Yun's silver in Moscow. She just had to be clean like Rika....

 

[Icey]

Julia's scores for P and I should have lower than Park's imo

 

[fairly4]

I am sorry I am running about 2 gp events behind.

just for the ladies in cup of china, polina did well but I think with her program if it peter pan, I don't see the "flying" part. I don't mean literally, I mean when she skates it . it comes off a bit too slow regarding flying. so I don't think peter pan. if she skates a bit faster it might come off more but other than than fine.
although I thought her score was a bit low.
Ashley cain, Christina skated okay what was expected of them.

the 3rd place could have went to either polina or kanako or me. but podium finish was okay.

rostelcom good job to all ladies.
mirai-much improved as well as Ashley cain.
angela have more confidence in yourself knowing you can do it.

rika great skate, alaine good job, anna job.

 

[Ophelia]

I'd say So Youn should have gotten the bronze at Skate America but well... It's Skate America, without any major contender from the US fed on the podium we might not have Skate America to watch and skaters might not have any competition to participate at all. I think So Youn's time will come, as long as she can prove her consistency and deliver 2 clean programs. Here in CoR, So Youn did well, but not enough to get on the podium.

Idk if Park has the mental goods to be really consistent, which is what she needs to be coming from a Fed with no power. She strikes me as someone that blows hot and cold, performance-wise. She also lacks the killer instinct.

 

[Meoima]

Idk if Park has the mental goods to be really consistent, which is what she needs to be coming from a Fed with no power. She strikes me as someone that blows hot and cold, performance-wise. She also lacks the killer instinct.

Well, I don't think I can call Carolina Kostner as a very fierce competitor, but she has been quite successful in her career. So nothing is impossible. I think we should just wait and see. So Youn did very well at Saitama. I think she can do it again.

 

[Ophelia]

Kostner is an anomaly, had a really long career, and was a judge's favorite from the beginning. Park is not a judge's favorite, and unless she can be uber consistent, she won't receive scoring boosts. As good as Yuna Kim was, she only received really strong scores when she blew out the entire field. Anytime she didn't blow out the field, the judges were stingy with her scores.