2014 Rostelecom Cup Men's Short Program 11/14

[Mrs. P]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his PCS was higher at both Nebelhorn & SA by a fair amount, no?

He got 40+ at Nebelhorn and Skate America.

 

[WeakAnkles]

He has a silver from his first GP and he won his first senior international competition. Even with a super subpar program for him, he is still with in 5 points from the podium.

This SP segment was probably one of the few times most of his competition was clean with their quads (Brezina being the exception). But even then, it's not they're all scoring 90+ because they made other errors.

Again, Kori has it right. It's a marathon, not a sprint. One subpar SP isn't going to matter much by 2018 if he gets the quad when HE is ready to put it out there and its consistent and all that stuff.

And also there's still the long program?

:agree:

 

[Sandpiper]

He got 40+ at Nebelhorn and Skate America.

Imo, at SA, Jason sold the program better despite the problem with the axel. Or, more worryingly, his PCS could be taking a "consistency hit."

 

[Tavi...]

He got 40+ at Nebelhorn and Skate America.

That's what I thought, tho for some reason I tend to think of it in terms of the individual components - eg the highest one he got was 8.04 + lots of 7.71s v 8+ on most components at the other two comps.

 

[Mrs. P]

Imo, at SA, Jason sold the program better despite the problem with the axel. Or, more worryingly, his PCS could be taking a "consistency hit."

Last season he scored: 38.93 (SA); 38.79 (TEB); 40.61 (Olympics). So far this season he's scored 40.09 (Nebelhorn), 40.81 (SA) and 39.06 (here).

Given that today's performance was the worst we've seen from him....it's sort of makes sense for his PCS to be the lowest too, I guess. But I don't think they hosed him in PCS either.

 

[Tavi...]

Imo, at SA, Jason sold the program better despite the problem with the axel. Or, more worryingly, his PCS could be taking a "consistency hit."

So odd that he has always been known for his consistency and this year he just - isn't consistent. Growing pains, I think.

 

[balletanddancefan]

Thank you, Mathman. Were you trying to top the "hip-shaking Yuzuru" image?


Considering what Max and Jason put out there, Voronov was indeed in a different league on this evening. I think the scores are fair; this isn't a case of two equally clean programs getting vastly different scores.

What I do expect, however, is that if Voronov bombs the free, his marks there should be just as poor as tonight's marks were good. But that's a conversation for tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to Jason's free, which is one of my favourites this season (I'm not a fan of his SP this year).

Max/Jason being young aren't reasons to give them better scores.

Are you saying Brezina was overscored or underscored? If it's the former, I agree.

I am not too a fan of his SP And I im waiting the FS (of Jason, Max, Misha, Javier ecc.)

 

[Mrs. P]

So odd that he has always been known for his consistency and this year he just - isn't consistent. Growing pains, I think.

He had a crazy streak of clean SPs. 6/6 (Nebelhorn, SA, TEB, Nationals, Olympics and Nebelhorn again). The streak had to end, I guess.

I'm not seeing the doom and gloom yet though. I think he had a bad day. The Shep Goldberg thing must've affected him (to what level, I don't know).

I can only think of three times where his SP was this bad: Courchavel JGP 2012, Junior Worlds 2013 (when he also botched his 3-3) and obviously this one.

 

[balletanddancefan]

So odd that he has always been known for his consistency and this year he just - isn't consistent. Growing pains, I think.

"Growing pains, I think" Maybe. He was so little at 16, 17. Now He arrived at the Growing pains. A bit late but he is a type late growning phyisically... but he is so young! Ha has the future!

 

[balletanddancefan]

Last season he scored: 38.93 (SA); 38.79 (TEB); 40.61 (Olympics). So far this season he's scored 40.09 (Nebelhorn), 40.81 (SA) and 39.06 (here).

Given that today's performance was the worst we've seen from him....it's sort of makes sense for his PCS to be the lowest too, I guess. But I don't think they hosed him in PCS either.

Poor baby. I confess I liked the videos and also liked my family including mistakes he is so young and depends on the coach and choreographer

 

[Tavi...]

He had a crazy streak of clean SPs. 6/6 (Nebelhorn, SA, TEB, Nationals, Olympics and Nebelhorn again). The streak had to end, I guess.

I'm not seeing the doom and gloom yet though. I think he had a bad day. The Shep Goldberg thing must've affected him (to what level, I don't know).

I can only think of three times where his SP was this bad: Courchavel JGP 2012, Junior Worlds 2013 (when he also botched his 3-3) and obviously this one.

Let's hope tomorrow is better - I really do love that FS and I sense it really inspires him.

I was thinking about that interview Peter Carruthers did with him after his standing ovation at 2011 nationals:

PC: what makes you so good?
JB (without a beat or any false modesty): I think I'm really consistent and I've been working with Kori mentally on things I might face in the future.

 

[katmari]

Eh, guys. Can we just agree to disagree and have a snowball fight? You all need to go outside!!!

Okay, it's not snowing. It's just cold. But get out in the fresh cold air. Fresh air into the lungs AAAHHHHHH...

Well, there's plenty of lake effect snow here in southwest Michigan for snowball fights (5 inches and counting since yesterday) ... :scowl:

I agree with you about Jason, Mrs. P. I feel he was placed appropriately based on his performance today. He is very much a people person and the death of Shep Goldberg does seem to be affecting him. I'm a big fan of his free skate and hope he has a better day tomorrow.

 

[TMC]

I thought it strange that while Jason usually always does the 'tano Lutz, this time it looked like it was planned as a regular ole Lutz. That to me is a sign that all is maybe not well, like could he be a little under the weather?

 

[el henry]

Jason is my favorite skater, but I have to disagree with you here. In my opinion, the audience should not be required to know anything about the 1940s blues dance idiom in order to appreciate the program - a performance should stand on its own merits. And honestly, I don't think it does. It almost seems as if Rohene chose this piece because it's "seminal" and Little Walter was an "innovator," not because the music itself really inspired him to create. Whether or not Jason's performance is suffering right now because of the music/ choreography or the pressure he's under this year, for me, at least, this program isn't working.

As an aside, I grew up in Chicago listening to the blues, but of a much later era. Rightly or wrongly, Juke bears very little resemblance to what I think of as "Chicago blues," and in fact, A Question of U, though not strictly blues, is far closer to it - perhaps one reason I love that program so much.

I understand, and I realize that not everyone will like Jason's program as a program. I grew up on Philadelphia R&B, so I cannot claim to be an expert on Chicago blues. I think I was trying to say what Mrs. P said much better: love it or not, it is horribly unfair to reduce Jason's performance to smiles and suspenders. He skated poorly today and got scores to match.

And I may be too hard on Voronov as a performer; maybe to some he is very embodiment of the devil fiddling. I just didn't see it.

Wow, I go away for four hours and have to read through five screens:dance:

 

[Krunchii]

I could watch Kozuka skating all day, even with no jumps. He's just so

I could too, he could just do doubles and I would be happy just to watch his feet glide across the ice, unffff

 

[[email protected]]

Today we had Javi, Sergey, and everybody else. The scores are suprisingly where they should be. I am glad that almost all "regular customers" share this opinion. If Javi were as effortless and clean as Sergey, the margin between them would be 5-6 points rather than 3. And 95 which Javi would have received unless a couple of labored moments would reflect his wonderful program and wonderful performance. Voronov on the other hand just stunned me. He was sort of OK but not good in Nebelhorn. He was not good in Nice. I did not believe he will do that well. This was his best performance ever better than the last Europe which I also treated as an outlier. Well, Menshov was also doing fine after SP then lost it. Hope that Sergey will hold. He needs to land all the jumps and the podium will be his.

As for Jason, I don't know. He might get to the podium here if 2 of the top 4 guys bomb tomorrow. But overall after Nebelhorn (where he impressed me that's why I keep betting on him) I am less and less excited. He still gets his 120 PCS combined no matter what. But to be competitive with the best guys or with inconsistent men who usually bomb but who can "shoot" every now and then he needs at least 130 TES. And to do that without quads he has to bring his stuff to perfection. It is much easier than for, say, Kovtun who admits that after the third quad in FP his legs are just dead. And Jason just cannot do it. I don't buy his coach's point of view that they are not pushing with quads because they want to develop gradually. Based on what I saw today they are very far from just the beginning of the "quad journey" because he is far from mastering triples. Then he will remain a "230 guy" with nice skating skills. Hope, he will change something because he is so much fun to watch.

So sad about Artur. I saw a good promise when he skated in Russia in September. But there is no spark in him not talking about the sheer male power which Voronov showed today.

And big to Misha Ge. Unlike Jason he is better every time I see him this season. And I think his PCS should go up couple of points.

 

[emma]

Haven't watched all the videos yet - but from what I watched, and read here, it seems like a great event for the men! Yes, Jason was not at his best; but having read before watching, I must say his awful is just not that awful. It's not his best or great, but those PCS are not far off his best, and as Mrs. P and others noted, 3rd highest of the event. I'm also not "in love" with this SP as I fell in love with Prince SP; but also like Mrs. P said, that one took, well, two seasons to really gel, and I wouldn't be surprised if this one did too. And if it doesn't, it's not the end of the world - I love his/his coaches' explicit approach to 'a marathon' and growing etc.

That said: javi, my dear Javi. wow. And Veronov - crazy beautiful combo. And I always have a huge soft spot for Kazuka, so, always nice to see him. Off to watch others...

 

[Mathman]

OKOK, my journey was very short in the world of the figure skating. I returne to the dance. If Jason exibished in Europe I going to watch him. And I never see in the future skating competitions!

Come back, come back! It will grow on you! A beautiful quad toe / triple toe combination like Voronov's is just as as a well executed balancoire or ballone. (OK, I had to look those up on ballet terms site, but still… )

 

[Mrs. P]

As for Jason, I don't know. He might get to the podium here if 2 of the top 4 guys bomb tomorrow. But overall after Nebelhorn (where he impressed me that's why I keep betting on him) I am less and less excited. He still gets his 120 PCS combined no matter what. But to be competitive with the best guys or with inconsistent men who usually bomb but who can "shoot" every now and then he needs at least 130 TES. And to do that without quads he has to bring his stuff to perfection. It is much easier than for, say, Kovtun who admits that after the third quad in FP his legs are just dead. And Jason just cannot do it. I don't buy his coach's point of view that they are not pushing with quads because they want to develop gradually. Based on what I saw today they are very far from just the beginning of the "quad journey" because he is far from mastering triples. Then he will remain a "230 guy" with nice skating skills. Hope, he will change something because he is so much fun to watch.

It has always been Kori's strategy to let Jason develop gradually and focus on what HE CAN DO instead of obsess on what he couldn't do or rush elements because everyone else was doing them. From day one, back to when he was a juvenile. The strategy did not always work and others who were more technically apt than him were able to pass him. For example, when he was a novice, he only had 3T and 3S and a UR 3Loop while his contemporaries had the flip and lutz as well.

Jason himself said that he always was a step behind on the jumps, which forced him to worked on everything else while he waited to get the other jumps to work.

But there were other times where he skated clean and was able to move up the rankings when others faltered. So whether you buy it or not, is your call, but the history shows that Jason's team MO has always been to do programs that are clean. And for the most part, that has been the case for much of his junior career and during his senior career.


And their end goal is 2018. So again, wringing one's hands over a performance at the beginning at the quad isn't going to help them much.

As I said earlier, there are just a few times where Jason had a really poor SP.

Also, I don't consider the error he had today a reflection that he hasn't mastered his triples. He probably has done that 3F-3T combo perfectly in the past (in fact, it's a combo he doesn't really mess up on). And he did a adequate 3A today.

The guy had a bad skate, it happens to the best of them.


For the record...
Nebelhorn Trophy 2013 43.38+ 73.80 = 117.18
Skate America 2013 44.85 +68.89 = 113.74
Trophee Eric Bompard 45.98 + 78.20 = 124.18
Olympics 45.39 +68.09 =113.48
Nebelhorn Trophy 2014 43.50 + 67.74 = 111.24
Skate America 2014 39.94 + 74.06 =114

So no, he has not gotten to 130 TES yet, but he has come close...

By the way, his PB is 243+ so he is capable of not staying in the 230s...

 

[karne]

And btw: Jason and Max are the younghest (expect th 12. Thakashvili): the have the future!

Actually, they're not. Max will be 23 this January; Artur has only just turned 21.

So odd that he has always been known for his consistency and this year he just - isn't consistent. Growing pains, I think.

It's quite possible. This is about the age Artur had his second growth spurt. But I think for Jason it might not be his height, but his weight - suddenly growing in muscle mass, and starting to fill in. I was actually wondering if that was ever going to happen. If it is happening, then it might throw things off a little.

(This sort of thing makes me glad I found Max "late". He'd already done all of his growing and filling in and everything!)

I thought it strange that while Jason usually always does the 'tano Lutz, this time it looked like it was planned as a regular ole Lutz. That to me is a sign that all is maybe not well, like could he be a little under the weather?

I actually thought it was more of a "EEK THERE'S A WALL!". I think his mistake on the combo came partly from being too close to the barriers. Is the rink undersized here? (I can never tell looking at Max because he always makes me shriek "TOO CLOSE!" at least once a program, no matter where he is.)