2015 Cup of China Mens Free Skate

[Tastetherainbow]

With the high scores thrown at Jin for mastering quad lutz/ triple combo in sp (and still getting overall good scores on PCS and crazy high scores on tech in fp, despite more of his weaknesses as a young skater showing up), where's the incentive for him to improve his presentation?

I don't know if you noticed, but Fernandez won the LP with a fall on a quad and a double lutz/step out over Jin's 2 3As and 4 quads (although not superb quality with the exception of the quad lutz). Even if you think Fernandez was gifted high PCS scores, it still says more than anything that just because you've got the gift for rotating does not mean you can disregard PCS in any way.

Besides, Jin has already said numerous times in the press conference and to the Chinese media that he needs to focus on presentation and skating skills. Let's actually see if he develops his presentation over the next few years before we harp on him. The SP is where I thought he shined presentation-wise the most; the LP was just badly choreographed and hectic for me in general, and the music didn't help. I would say if he were given better programs and continues to work on PCS in the next few years, he's well on his way to be a top skater by the 2022 or even 2018 Olympics.

 

[Art&Sport]

Ha ha. Just because Javi receives ridiculous PCS scores with all his errors, that's supposed to provide Jin with incentive? Javi always receives ridiculously high PCS scores, and apparently Brian Orser is resigned to appearing as if he is working on improving Javi's presentation. What is actually happening is they try to find music and choreo that can help camouflage Javi's weaknesses.

IMO, Javi was propped up despite his errors because he's World champion and Jin did not actually blow anyone away with Jason Brown-like stylistic talent. Doesn't matter really as Jin still received some pretty decent PCS for being a juniorish skater in his presentation. Javi does have a charismatic presence on the ice, and out-of-this-world suspension on his quads when he manages to hit them just right but clearly skating clean is NOT the standard any longer.

Apparently, if skaters and their coaches at least do lip service to trying to improve artistically, then that seems to uphold the truth that figure skating is about more than just jumps. In reality, the judges and the sport are quad-revol gaga and are stomping all over the truth.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Ha ha. Just because Javi receives ridiculous PCS scores with all his errors, that's supposed to provide Jin with incentive? Javi always receives ridiculously high PCS scores, and apparently Brian Orser is resigned to appearing as if he is working on improving Javi's presentation. What is actually happening is they try to find music and choreo that can help camouflage Javi's weaknesses.

IMO, Javi was propped up despite his errors because he's World champion and Jin did not actually blow anyone away with Jason Brown-like stylistic talent. Doesn't matter really as Jin still received some pretty decent PCS for being a juniorish skater in his presentation. Javi does have a charismatic presence on the ice, and out-of-this-world suspension on his quads when he manages to hit them just right but clearly skating clean is NOT the standard any longer.

Apparently, if skaters and their coaches at least do lip service to trying to improve artistically, then that seems to uphold the truth that figure skating is about more than just jumps. In reality, the judges and the sport are quad-revol gaga and are stomping all over the truth.

Frankly, I had Javi at 84 in components for this FS performance. I agree with Kurt Browning that his interpretation of his choreography doesn't come across as authentic and it looks like he's "doing someone else's choreography."

 

[Art&Sport]

Frankly, I had Javi at 84 in components for this FS performance. I agree with Kurt Browning that his interpretation of his choreography doesn't come across as authentic and it looks like he's "doing someone else's choreography."

Def, yep! I have to listen to Kurt's commentary. NBC with Terry G and Tracy Wilson being overly upbeat about the poor fp performances from the top three was a bit much. Actually, I don't know if NBC showed Han's skate, as the affiliate changed the time of the broadcast and I didn't get to see all of the small amount they televised. Gosh what would fans do without the Internet, social media, and Youtube?! And above all, without Goldenskate!!! Thanks @Mao88!

Wonder what happened to Johnny and Tara this week? BTW, Tracy has so many conflicts of interest going on, it isn't even funny.

 

[Art&Sport]

...The SP is where I thought he shined presentation-wise the most; the LP was just badly choreographed and hectic for me in general, and the music didn't help. I would say if he were given better programs and continues to work on PCS in the next few years, he's well on his way to be a top skater by the 2022 or even 2018 Olympics.

Weaknesses will always show up when you have to be out there longer on the ice in a fp. Poor music and choreo of course do not help. The thing for Jin to start with is fine-tuning skating skills a la Patrick Chan and Han Yan. I actually would have some hope for Han Yan since he already possesses better skating skills than Jin. But Han similar to Javi always looks like he's trying to do certain moves and gestures the way someone told him to, and not because he is naturally being inspired by the music.

Yes, Jin is still young, but pardon me for having more hope for well-rounded athleticism and artistry from young skaters like Shoma Uno, Nathan Chen, Jason Brown, Tim Dolensky, Deniss Vasiljevs, Roman Sadovsky, and Daniel Samohin. Jin in the minds of many would be rated above Jason, Deniss, Tim and Roman because he has quads/ quad lutz weapons, and they haven't even mastered one quad yet in competition. But I prefer watching them skate over Jin. I even prefer watching Misha and Michael CM skate over Jin at this point. But in a jumping contest, it would be Jin hands down, or hands overhead. :dance2:


ETA:
Not sure why I'm using a lol emoticon, but the standing and twirling on head one is fairly apt to my present state of mind about figure skating. Or maybe this one: :hpull:

 

[Mathman]

Brian Orser is resigned to appearing as if he is working on improving Javi's presentation. What is actually happening is they try to find music and choreo that can help camouflage Javi's weaknesses.

What I don't get is, why doesn't everyone do that. Good music and good choreography = higher scores. So… ?

 

[Jaana]

Javi always receives ridiculously high PCS scores, and apparently Brian Orser is resigned to appearing as if he is working on improving Javi's presentation. What is actually happening is they try to find music and choreo that can help camouflage Javi's weaknesses.

LOL, actually that is the purpose of the choreography and music for every skater.

 

[qwertyskates]

We all need to bear in mind that first and foremost, each skater is UNIQUE. It doesn't make much sense to insist that Jin should be more like Shoma, or that Shoma should be more like Jin, even though both are GP silver medalists. They have different strengths, and you can't blame either for capitalizing and maximizing their strengths. Due to different preferences, the audience is going to hold different opinions, and will find different shortcomings in all skaters. If the TES/PCS were to be plotted along a graph, each skater will hit their optimum TES/PCS convergence, and they will be very much defined by their overall strengths and weaknesses. It is very unlikely for skaters of either extremes to get to the top, but it is up to the skaters to work harder at getting there by improving on their weaknesses.

Tbh, there's less room for bias in TES evaluation, of course there's GOE which might be subjective, but on the whole, TES "stretching" or "contracting" won't go far in influencing the outcome. PCS is much more subjective, and in many ways, can even be "political". Skaters from countries with strong Feds will be privileged over those from countries with weaker Feds, unless a Yuna Kim, Javier Fernandez or Dennis Ten come along and change the game, but even then they had to rely on powerful coaches, Orser and Carroll.

PCS is accrued over a skater's career, so a World Champion might skate poorly for one or two events but their PCS will not plunge with their poor performances. It is something to be earned. It might not be fair for the other competitors of that particular competition, eg. Mao vs Rika at CoC FS, but that's the way it is. Personally, I feel it is fair, as any top skater can have a bad day, but it is a fluke. It will be tragic if they lose their shot at a place on the final podium because of a couple of slip ups in the preliminaries.

Each skater has their distinctive style, some are more "pleasant" than others', depth of the edges, posture, extensions, etc., but like Patrick, Javi and Yuzuru demonstrated, they can always be improved with determined training.

Jin will find his TES/PCS balance eventually, we won't know for sure how he will turn out, they are still early in their careers, i.e. if they are not hit by injuries. Han Yan is fortunate that his outstanding SS has been developed by his coach from the start, he will hopefully get over his year-long funk, see a sports psychologist, find a better choreographer, and make full use of his current gifts to perform more stunning programs for our eyes.

What disturbs me is a kind of complete aversion to a particular skater to the point that the thought that he/she *might* get a shot at the podium, even if it is through legitimate scoring, is considered sacrilegious, especially for a very young and new to the Seniors skater. Honestly, it is premature to worry. Skaters with extremely weak PCS or TES do not become World or Olympic Champions, I don't recall even a single instance.

 

[Celine]

Def, yep! I have to listen to Kurt's commentary. NBC with Terry G and Tracy Wilson being overly upbeat about the poor fp performances from the top three was a bit much. Actually, I don't know if NBC showed Han's skate, as the affiliate changed the time of the broadcast and I didn't get to see all of the small amount they televised. Gosh what would fans do without the Internet, social media, and Youtube?! And above all, without Goldenskate!!! Thanks @Mao88!

Wonder what happened to Johnny and Tara this week? BTW, Tracy has so many conflicts of interest going on, it isn't even funny.

Yes, the whole Canadian broadcasting set up is so loaded with potential conflicts. Last season Carol Lane - who coaches Gilles/Poirier - was commentating on ice dance events, which I found odd. It would be like Igor Shpilband manning the microphone or Frank Carroll commentating during singles.

 

[MaxSwagg]

As far as Tracy goes, I don't notice any bias when she commentates on Yuzu, Nam, or Javier's performances, and from what I've heard in the few times I've listened to her commentating, she seems to offer good, constructive critiques and explanations and tries to find at least something to be complimentary on.

 

[Art&Sport]

What I don't get is, why doesn't everyone do that. Good music and good choreography = higher scores. So… ?

LOL, actually that is the purpose of the choreography and music for every skater.

Okay @Mathman, and @Jaana. Nothing's wrong with the approach of choosing cheesy music and gimmicky choreo in order to camouflage Javi's weaknesses.

Sure this year, they picked something more inspired for Javi's sp (and his sp last season was good for Javi too). But for the past three seasons or so Javi's fps have been pretty much in the same not very challenging vein. At least this season, the frantic gimmicky movements have been dropped from his fp choreo, and Javi looks more suave and cool skating to Frank Sinatra.

Of course picking music and choreography that enhances a skater's strengths is very important, but selecting the right music can be a very difficult enterprise. In Javi's case, I think his last two sp music selections have been good and helpful to his growth as a skater. The Frank Sinatra music for Javi's fp this season is not bad either, but the choreo and style is in a similar vein to last two seasons' fps, even though thankfully the frantic gimmicky movements and comedic mugging have been dropped for a bit more smoother style. Still, IMO, this style of choreo is not challenging for Javi at this point in his career.

But I get it that Javi does not need to challenge himself choreographically since the judges don't think he needs to improve in the categories of choreo and interpretation. Frankly, Javi does not possess a great understanding of the music and his overall artistic range is limited. However, rather than giving him something that might challenge him to improve his presentation skills and his overall development as a skater, it is simply too convenient to opt for easier programs and lean back in cruise control and rely heavily on those point-grabbing quads.

 

[NicoleH]

Of course picking music and choreography that enhances a skater's strengths is very important, but selecting the right music can be a very difficult enterprise. In Javi's case, I think his last two sp music selections have been good and helpful to his growth as a skater. The Frank Sinatra music for Javi's fp this season is not bad either, but the choreo and style is in a similar vein to last two seasons' fps, even though thankfully the frantic gimmicky movements and comedic mugging have been dropped for a bit more smoother style. Still, IMO, this style of choreo is not challenging for Javi at this point in his career.

But I get it that Javi does not need to challenge himself choreographically since the judges don't think he needs to improve in the categories of choreo and interpretation. Frankly, Javi does not possess a great understanding of the music and his overall artistic range is limited. However, rather than giving him something that might challenge him to improve his presentation skills and his overall development as a skater, it is simply too convenient to opt for easier programs and lean back in cruise control and rely heavily on those point-grabbing quads.

But fernandez has such bad posture that he makes the flamenco sp look almost like another goofy program :sarcasm: and I don't see any suaveness in his fp. It's the same old same old style. He only gets the overscored pcs because he's european #1.

 

[Art&Sport]

As far as Tracy goes, I don't notice any bias when she commentates on Yuzu, Nam, or Javier's performances, and from what I've heard in the few times I've listened to her commentating, she seems to offer good, constructive critiques and explanations and tries to find at least something to be complimentary on.

Tracy is apparently the irresistible sweetheart who is widely loved. I don't question her professionalism, knowledge and sweetness. It is just interesting that Sandra Bezic never received the same kid glove treatment. Sandra was told that choreographing for skaters while commentating was not an option. So, Sandra stopped choreographing and in order to continue commentating. Meanwhile, Tracy is doing and has done over the years a little bit of everything both in Canada and in the U.S., which clearly is great for her. However, I think there is a bit less of a conflict being a skating choreographer and a commentator than there is being a skating coach and a commentator, along with other insider jobs.

Kurt Browning too has commentated about skaters who he has choreographed for without being forced to choose.

 

[Art&Sport]

We all need to bear in mind that first and foremost, each skater is UNIQUE. It doesn't make much sense to insist that Jin should be more like Shoma, or that Shoma should be more like Jin, even though both are GP silver medalists. They have different strengths, and you can't blame either for capitalizing and maximizing their strengths. Due to different preferences, the audience is going to hold different opinions, and will find different shortcomings in all skaters. If the TES/PCS were to be plotted along a graph, each skater will hit their optimum TES/PCS convergence, and they will be very much defined by their overall strengths and weaknesses. It is very unlikely for skaters of either extremes to get to the top, but it is up to the skaters to work harder at getting there by improving on their weaknesses.

Tbh, there's less room for bias in TES evaluation, of course there's GOE which might be subjective, but on the whole, TES "stretching" or "contracting" won't go far in influencing the outcome. PCS is much more subjective, and in many ways, can even be "political". Skaters from countries with strong Feds will be privileged over those from countries with weaker Feds, unless a Yuna Kim, Javier Fernandez or Dennis Ten come along and change the game, but even then they had to rely on powerful coaches, Orser and Carroll.

PCS is accrued over a skater's career, so a World Champion might skate poorly for one or two events but their PCS will not plunge with their poor performances. It is something to be earned. It might not be fair for the other competitors of that particular competition, eg. Mao vs Rika at CoC FS, but that's the way it is. Personally, I feel it is fair, as any top skater can have a bad day, but it is a fluke. It will be tragic if they lose their shot at a place on the final podium because of a couple of slip ups in the preliminaries.

Each skater has their distinctive style, some are more "pleasant" than others', depth of the edges, posture, extensions, etc., but like Patrick, Javi and Yuzuru demonstrated, they can always be improved with determined training.

Jin will find his TES/PCS balance eventually, we won't know for sure how he will turn out, they are still early in their careers, i.e. if they are not hit by injuries. Han Yan is fortunate that his outstanding SS has been developed by his coach from the start, he will hopefully get over his year-long funk, see a sports psychologist, find a better choreographer, and make full use of his current gifts to perform more stunning programs for our eyes.

What disturbs me is a kind of complete aversion to a particular skater to the point that the thought that he/she *might* get a shot at the podium, even if it is through legitimate scoring, is considered sacrilegious, especially for a very young and new to the Seniors skater. Honestly, it is premature to worry. Skaters with extremely weak PCS or TES do not become World or Olympic Champions, I don't recall even a single instance.

In the present environment in men's figure skating, landing quads takes huge precedence over artistry no matter how you wish to spin the situation. That is what I am commenting on. I feel the scoring is too over-weighted toward quads. But I welcome seeing what Jin has accomplished. I am not against Jin. He is very young, and so he still has the opportunity to improve, even if not the incentive since he is already able to garner such high points landing quads whether or not he skates an overall compelling program.

The fact that I enjoy watching skaters who have more well-rounded skills does not mean I have an aversion to watching skaters who are primarily jumpers. I even enjoyed watching Voronov's funky "Its a Man's World" program last season, and I feel for him because he tries so hard and he's a veteran trooper. Still, I do not prefer Voronov's awkward, stiff and unrefined style of skating. Menshov, OTOH, has smoothed out his mechanics and has shown some improvement, so I root more for him. I've always enjoyed watching Brian Joubert, and he improved somewhat over the years, but he was primarily a jumper with limited artistic range. Unfortunately for Joubert, high scores for quads weren't being handed out so freely early in his career. In addition, I was not a fan of Max Aaron when he first came up to seniors in the U.S. Around 2012 though, I began to be won over by Max's hard work and his very appealing personality. Max has great character and his desire to improve is so admirable. Instead of doing lip service to becoming a more well-rounded skater, Max has put his heart and his hard work on the line and he has achieved very deserved results in the process.

I am hopeful for Han Yan to become a more inspired skater, particularly since he already possesses enviable skating skills. As you say, Jin is still young and so we don't know how he will develop. I am not against Jin as a skater. I am against the way the scoring system is currently over-weighted in favor of quads, and the way better PCS scores are often tied to landing quads. Plus, I never said that Jin needs to be Shoma. I said that I currently prefer watching Shoma, Jason, Deniss V, et al., over skaters who are primarily jumpers and who rely heavily on quads to amass points. I am not against Jin, because I think he is a nice-looking skater with clear opportunity for further growth artistically. The question is whether Jin will actually be able to focus on improving when he's already able to reach the podium in his debut senior season against top skaters. Notice I don't say that to the same degree about Shoma because Shoma already possesses rare artistry and athleticism. But yet, even Shoma still needs to develop further as he is also new to seniors. I don't think Shoma's PCS always deserve to be overly high every time out. Both Shoma and Jin are still learning and both are still very young. But the sport feels it's okay to give too much too soon, especially to skaters who wield quads.

Also you do not seem to be taking figure skating politics into the equation. If you go back and look at the history of the sport, winners have often been dictated by behind-the-scenes politics, and not always based on the skater's relative strengths vs competitors. How else can we explain Dai Takahashi not being in first after the 2010 Olympics sp?

 

[Art&Sport]

But fernandez has such bad posture that he makes the flamenco sp look almost like another goofy program :sarcasm: and I don't see any suaveness in his fp. It's the same old same old style. He only gets the overscored pcs because he's european #1.

I'm inclined to agree with you NicoleH, although I do see some small improvement in Javi's sp. Still ITA that all the claims that he's greatly improved are over the top. I do find the Frank Sinatra fp a lot less gimmicky and comedic, but sure it is in the same style as his programs over the past two seasons. That is why I said in the first place that Brian Orser is resigned to packaging Javi in a limited way and to relying heavily on the scores Javi can grab on TES and PCS, without challenging Javi to develop further and improve his weaknesses. I guess if you can always get away with less than your best, why bother trying too hard!

I think Orser gains a lot of satisfaction coaching young skaters (and it helps to make up for his missing an OGM that he has coached two youngsters: Kim and Hanyu, to Olympic gold medal wins). It also seems as if Orser sees something of himself in Javi. Actually, there are similar physical characteristics between young Javi and the formerly young Brian Orser. The main difference is that Javi does not and apparently will never come close to being as accomplished musically and artistically as Brian Orser. Of course Javi does not need to be another Brian Orser, but Javi should aspire to be his own true self on the ice, i.e., taking risks to express who he is rather than continuing to cruise on quads and PCS gifts.

 

[qwertyskates]

In the present environment in men's figure skating, landing quads takes huge precedence over artistry no matter how you wish to spin the situation. That is what I am commenting on. I feel the scoring is too over-weighted toward quads. But I welcome seeing what Jin has accomplished. I am not against Jin. He is very young, and so he still has the opportunity to improve, even if not the incentive since he is already able to garner such high points landing quads whether or not he skates an overall compelling program.

Actually, this comment puzzles me, because a quadless Jason Brown has medalled over skaters with higher TES even with subpar performances (look at the recent SA GP), not to mention Patrick winning Yuzuru who had more quads at SC, Javi won the CoC with fewer quads, so I don't understand your insistence of "huge precedence" of quads over artistry.:scratch3:

Spin that.

CoP has been in place for years, this feels a bit like shifting the goal posts. It's like a new runner has mastered the technique of winning the 100 m and people who don't like to look at the new runner start discussing how the race should be changed to 110m or it will be unfair to the other runners.

 

[fallingsk8er]

Here's hoping that Shoma and Boyang will be the 2 contenders for the next Olympics.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Here's hoping that Shoma and Boyang will be the 2 contenders for the next Olympics.

We'll see! But Yuzu is going to be doing ANYTHING for it to be only him who is the frontrunner. He wants double gold.

 

[Bumdid]

Here's hoping that Shoma and Boyang will be the 2 contenders for the next Olympics.

They'll be like the male version of Kim Yuna vs Mao Asada. I'm preparing for the numerous worthy discussion we'll have between their fans.

 

[Layback11]

They'll be like the male version of Kim Yuna vs Mao Asada. I'm preparing for the numerous worthy discussion we'll have between their fans.

Prematurely declaring myself Team Shoma!