rafa is my fave
I prefer Rafa anyway. :2thumbs:
I prefer Rafa anyway. :2thumbs:
Agree, I think both of their faces during skate are very EXPRESSIVE :roll9::sad46::scard8: <--- something like that :laugh15:Additionally to what SkateFiguring just said, I'm just surprised either one of Yuzuru or Patrick is getting the 'not enough facial expressions' thingy. I always thought they were both doing fine in that regard
And I really love all this new emoticons, but it still takes me foooooreeeeeveeeer to go decide which new one to take in a post...
If you only look at the individual GOEs for each elements, you won't see anything unusual because most judges gave +1's and +2's, and only occasionally gave +3's. You can always justify the +2's if you are being more generous and check more bullet points. What is unusual is the number of +2's vs the number of +1's judges gave to Patrick compared to other skaters.
Most skaters receive a mix of +1's and +2's. It's rare for all judges to give +2's to either jumps or spins. Different judges value different features/qualities of a jump and a spin, e.g. some judges value heights, some judges value the distance, some judges value flow. Some judges are more harsh than others. Especially nowadays, many judges will not give a +2 to a jump that does not any difficult preceding steps/transitions/entries. So, in general, it's very difficult for one jump to satisfy all judges' preferences/values. Even if the skater has textbook jumps (without difficult steps/entries/transitions), you will often see only 3-4 judges give +2's and 5-6 judges give only +1's. Often, only jumps with difficult steps/entries/transitions and good qualities like height/distance/flow will get more than 5 +2's from the judges.
If you look at the protocols, most skaters (other than Patrick) receive +2's from only 2-4 judges, and +1's (or even 0) from 5-7 judges. But Patrick received +2's from 6-8 judges and +1's from only 1-3 judges for all of his jumps and spins. Basically, on average, Patrick received 3-4 more +2's from the judges than other skaters. None of the Patrick's jumps have difficult steps/transitions/entries and none of Patrick's spins have difficult variations/entries. (If the judges are as strict to Patrick as to other skaters, they won't give him that many +2's. Only 2-4 judges will give +2's and the rest give +1's.) These extra 3-4 +2's will raise the average GOE of each jump/spin by 0.4-0.6 points. The similar thing can apply to steps (+3 instead of +2). There are 13 elements in the program, so the overall GOE will be inflated by at least 7 points.
Similarly, you see 3-4 judges that gave Patrick 9.75's and 10's for the components, and that will inflate the average PCS by 3-5 points.
Based on my observation, Patrick's GOEs are inflated not because many judges gave him +3's, but because there are a few more judges that are more generous to him than other skaters and gave him more +2's than +1's. Those extra +2's boosts the average GOE by a significant amount. Same thing applies to the PCS. There are a few judges that are very generous to him and gave him extremely high component scores that boost the average PCS.
The home inflation is much bigger than I expected.
I don't think it's a big deal that Yururu didn' t win his first GP. I just wanted to point out that home inflation is very significant. That's how Javi received higher GOE for his spins and steps than Yuzuru at GPF last year.
Yes, it's unusual to get +2's across the board.If you only look at the individual GOEs for each elements, you won't see anything unusual because most judges gave +1's and +2's, and only occasionally gave +3's. You can always justify the +2's if you are being more generous and check more bullet points. What is unusual is the number of +2's vs the number of +1's judges gave to Patrick compared to other skaters.
Your "observation" is wonky.Based on my observation, Patrick's GOEs are inflated not because many judges gave him +3's, but because there are a few more judges that are more generous to him than other skaters and gave him more +2's than +1's.
Yes, it's unusual to get +2's across the board.
But that's exactly what happens when someone skates unusually well.
Which is what Chan did that night.
Your "observation" is wonky.
Chan's performance was better than the other skaters that night.
So he got more +2's than others. It's that simple. No "generosity" involved.
The GoE bullet points for jumps are:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure
The recommendation is four bullet points ticked, to justify +2 GoE.
Chan's jumps satisfied bullet points 4, 5, 6 and 7 every time.
And you could argue for more bullet points, for some of them
The +2's are justified.
Seriously, you have to be biased beyond reason not to see this.
I suggest you listen to the British Eurosport commentary of Chan's skate. It's very telling, even though they are historically big gushing fans of Yuzuru, more so than Chan.
The GoE judging was about as fair as it gets in figure skating. And when Yuzuru gives his best skate, this is exactly the kind of judging I want to see! Then there will be new world records...
Actually the issue is that some skaters' jumps tick all those bullets but they don't get that much GOE. :dance2: And I am not talking about Yuzuru.The recommendation is four bullet points ticked, to justify +2 GoE.
Chan's jumps satisfied bullet points 4, 5, 6 and 7 every time.
And you could argue for more bullet points, for some of them
The +2's are justified.
I don't think others were hitting all four of the bullet points I highlighted for their jumps, but I admit I only paid "close" attention to Yuzuru, Chan, and Murakami.Actually the issue is that some skaters' jumps tick all those bullets but they don't get that much GOE. :dance2: And I am not talking about Yuzuru.
What's the problem with the GoE on his spins?And don't forget the GOE for spins, :dance2: I mean... look at Patrick's spin in video and the GOE... Oh well...
Yup. Which is why FS is not only about high tech difficulty, and not only about "clean" skating and perfect execution: champions do both...!You know almost 20 GOE is almost 2 quads.
I actually quite like Ashley's acting... Most other skaters would skate to the music but she's actually embodying a character. Yes it's detracting from her feet but while that should reduce her SS and TR she sacrifices those for higher PE and IN marks. Some skaters pack in transitions and footwork and as such they sacrifice their PE and IN marks.
And really, if we held it against skaters for "acting" nobody would ever watch ice dance.
a) What are these factors are you talking about?But for last years GPF Yuzu did 2 quad with fabulous quality and 2 3A with good quality and difficult entries. Quad and 3A are factored by 1. All other 3 revolution jumps are factored by 0.75. Just cannot imagine how Patrick got 18+ for his GOE with only 1 3A and 1 quad. It is hard to believe he got 1.4 for his 3T without and difficult entry.
I can use the same bullets for most top guys. And none of them has ever get such GOE for the same layout, even when they perform really well.I don't think others were hitting all four of the bullet points I highlighted for their jumps, but I admit I only paid "close" attention to Yuzuru, Chan, and Murakami.
Which ones do you think didn't receive the GoE they deserved? I'd like to review them.
I don't want to dig up BoP's post for this case. He talked more about it. But I don't want to look for it, too many posts. :dumb: But seriously anyone give Patrick's +2 for his spins... :gclap: It's the same as people giving Liza and Ashley +3 for their spins. Enough said.What's the problem with the GoE on his spins?
I didn't compare Patrick's spin at SC to Yuzuru's spin. I guess you are thinking I think "Yuzuru should get higher score etc" on this or that. In fact my point is Patrick got too much. As for Yuzuru I have said the score is more or less acceptable.He got higher GoE for his spins than Yuzuru, but that's not surprising: Yuzuru spins were not as good as he normally does - less stable, more "travelling", and not as well centered. He's usually much better than that.
No one will care about adding more difficulty if the kind of scoring at SC continue.Yup. Which is why FS is not only about high tech difficulty, and not only about "clean" skating and perfect execution: champions do both...!
It's not a question of of fans thinking any such thing.I don't want to venture in that thread. I have said enough what I want to say. My point is, I am kind of surprised that some fans think that quality alone with long set up and not much transitions should get such huge GOE.
Yes, sorry everyone. I won't say any more on this.Yes, we can debate scores and things on the other threads that are dedicated to those topics. the Chan v Hanyu thread and the Skate Canada Mens events thread.
Judges are not some constant number or some machines. They're human who are affected by outside factors. I have the feeling you tend think that judges are absolute, or at least that's my feelings so sorry if it's not the case. Anyways, The issue with FS rules is that, there are various ways to twist or interprete those bullets listed in the criteria, you can always apply it for up to half of the field. But in reality we all know not half of the field get that.It's not a question of of fans thinking any such thing.
It's a question of judges applying what's written right there in the rules.
For everyone, Not just our favourites - otherwise it comes back to bite us, when the shoe is on the other foot.
And by the way "transitions" (presume you mean difficult entry) is just 1 bullet point out of 8 for a jump.
Yes, sorry everyone. I won't say any more on this.
I really don't mind Ashley's acting, it's cherry on the cake, I minded that the skate on the whole was mediocre but won gold and huge PCS when there were no technical brilliance, no choreography and transitions. Ice Dance is understood to be different from Pairs, I'd mind it equally if a Pairs with better facial expressions and triples win over a Pair with say, a couple of well executed Quads.