2016 ISU Congress

[grotesm1]

With only 6 jumping passes men can do a layout like

4Lz
4T+3T
4S
4T
3A
3A+2T+2Lo

No wimpy triple Lutzes or half-loop combination

There will be 7 jumping passes in 2018-19, not six. So there probably will need to be a triple lutz in there someplace.

This skating plan assumes a skater can land four quads and two triple axels cleanly, which isn't easy to do. With the increase in deductions for falls, skaters need to be sure they can do at least a two-footed or under-rotated landing on all their jumps. If not, the deductions for the falls are going to pile up pretty quickly.

The other factor is that in 2018-19 is that the GOES will increase to a range of 0 to +/-5. So a badly done quad may end up with a 0 or +1 while a nicely done triple lutz could end up with a +5. That's a much bigger difference than now.

Another reason why the ISU increased the range of the GOEs when they reduced the jumping passes for Men in 2018-19 is to make sure skaters still had a chance of setting points records. If the GOE range had been kept the same with only 7 jumping passes, Hanyu's records would have stood forever. The new range of GOEs gives skaters at least a hope of breaking Hanyu's records.

 

[grotesm1]

I agree. I don't know which skater you're talking about But if it men aren't required to do it then why should ladies? I am looking forward to seeing the creativity of other spins that will be performed besides the contorting Biellmanns. The ones who can really do a Biellman well can still do it. It's the best of all worlds to give this choice.



But what is ladylike about hurting your back? :noshake: Remember skaters like Rachael Flatt and Nancy Kerrigan who despised layback because of their back problems. Now they can do something else that is not as dangerous for them. We wouldn't force skaters to do oversplits or things like that so I don't see why layback was ever required.

I agree with pretty much all the other changes, except for the shorter warmup time. I think this is going to be a disaster.

Most of the Ladies' spirals were pretty ugly, so I'm not sorry to see them go. Anyone who can do a good spiral can make it part of a transition or entrance. Same with layback spins; not a lot of good ones out there and why risk injury to a skater by requiring them to do an element that could cause injury. Anyone who can do a good layback can still do the element, and the less flexible skaters have an option of doing an element which won't cause them to hurt their backs.

 

[gkelly]

We wouldn't force skaters to do oversplits or things like that so I don't see why layback was ever required.

At the time laybacks were first required in the ladies' SP (every few years on a rotating basis starting in the mid-1970s; every year since 1989), the only requirement was to perform "a layback or sideways-leaning spin." One position, 6 or later 8 revolutions, would meet the requirement. So it wasn't as much as a hardship as in the IJS era, when there are extra points available for multiple difficult variations including Biellmanns which are not really laybacks, and therefore high incentive to attempt positions that one's body is not necessarily build to achieve.

Another reason why the ISU increased the range of the GOEs when they reduced the jumping passes for Men in 2018-19 is to make sure skaters still had a chance of setting points records. If the GOE range had been kept the same with only 7 jumping passes, Hanyu's records would have stood forever. The new range of GOEs gives skaters at least a hope of breaking Hanyu's records.

Is that true? Will +3 still be worth the same amount extra that it is worth now, and +4 and +5 will be worth even more? Or will +5 value be (approximately) the same as the current +3 value, maybe new +3 approximately the same as old +2, and the new +2 and +4 slotted in between?

 

[Mathman]

But what is ladylike about hurting your back? :noshake:

If you are not blessed with a flexible back, then just do the best you can, even if it is not your strongest element.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030328/s4.jpg

I still think that it is the changes of positions that the modern scoring system requires that are the main culprits in this regard.

Anyway, to me a competitive program should display (as the ISU puts it) the "full skating vocabulary" Let's see your layback, your camel, and your sit spin. Run through the Lz, F, Lo, S, T and double Axel. For variety toss in a spit jump, Charlotte, Ina Bauer. Demonstrate steps and turns, power edging, all the stuff you can do that people who can't skate cannot do.

 

[Mathman]

There will be 7 jumping passes in 2018-19, not six. So there probably will need to be a triple lutz in there someplace.

Oh. Yes. Seven. I got confused there for a minute. :

Anyway, do as many quads as you can and the devil take the hindmost.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just want to momentarily take this thread back to what it the Original Poster (visaliakid) intended it to be about - the ISU Elections.

It was announced yesterday that the ISU has "terminated co-operation" with György Imre Sallak (the guy I favoured in the Presidential Elections, but who ended up coming 2[SUP]nd[/SUP])

http://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...th-unsuccessful-presidential-candidate-sallak

So, I take it that this is the end of Sallak at the ISU. And of any hopes of him standing again whenever Dijkema does stand down as President.

Well, I suppose Sallak is 64 now, so he's maybe a bit old to be the one to take over overseeing the reform of the ISU long term (as I said before, they need somebody who is able to see the transformation through to the end).

But Dijkema is 72!

Given that all the Presidential candidates were over 60, where is this new blood that Dijkema wants to take over from him going to come from? :confused2:

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Blades of Passion]

Anyone who can do a good spiral can make it part of a transition or entrance.

This is hardly just a transition or entrance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELFerA2QZX8

People can do a spiral sequence like that as their "choreography sequence" element, but there's no incentive to do something that magnificent and demanding anymore, because the judges hand out big +GOE for average sequences anyway. So that needs to change.

If there were 2 footwork sequences in the SP (that are less laborious than the current single sequence), as there should be, then we could easily have spiral sequences as an optional element in place of one of the footwork sequences.

Same with layback spins; not a lot of good ones out there and why risk injury to a skater by requiring them to do an element that could cause injury.

Firstly, ALL figure skating elements can cause injury but it's a sport. I don't see any evidence that laybacks are causing more injury than jumps, for example. Women tend to have more flexible backs, so it's only natural that the layback would be a required element in this event. Secondly, the rules for layback spins have just been too limiting. They became too much about doing twisted position variations instead of an actual layback. The women could all do a decent layback if they put the effort into it and if the rules allowed for arm usage and leg position (the classic layback position) and full back-bends (the Lucinda Ruh) to count towards the level. This way we wouldn't need to see everyone trying the sideways position and the biellmann position or even the haircutter (which is a move that too frequently gets level credit from the tech panel when it really shouldn't, with the way people sometimes perform it).

That said, since the Layback does have the highest base value of the spins Women can choose from in the SP, it does still have an incentive to be included. We still need better rules for spins, though, and I would prefer to have the Layback remain a required element for the Ladies SP.

-----

As for the shortening of the Long Programs in Men's and Pairs, starting in the 2018-2019 season, they will have to remove an element from the Pairs programs to make to work. I think it would be most sensible to remove the Pair Spin as a required element (it's already a required element in the SP and also in the Dance event) and also remove the 3rd Lift as a required element; instead let teams choose which one of these elements they want to perform. This way we get more variety and it works out perfectly because both of these elements have a maximum base value of 4.5, so it really would be about personal preference of which element to do, rather than most people picking the higher base value option.

For this change to work in the Men's competition, we really NEED to see the Step Sequence element shortened (this needs to happen anyway, as I talked about with the SP). Taking 30 seconds away from a program and just removing one jump from the program, the easiest jump, does not make up for the amount of time that was lost. The programs would be too crammed that way. It only sort-of works right now for the Ladies event because they do easier jumps. I don't like this change to begin with, though. Since there is in fact difference in jump difficulty between the Men and Ladies, it makes the most sense to leave Men's programs at 4:30 and to have the extra jump element so that they still have incentive to show a full arsenal of Triple jumps, instead of being able to entirely ignore one of them.

In general they need to change the "half-way bonus" that is given to jumps. Especially for the Short Program! It comes too early to be worth a bonus being given. Needs to be moved to later in the program.

 

[Arriba627]

Basically, the new draw rule is a compromise to keep both the TV people and the skaters happy.The TV people didn’t like having to show a skater who had no chance of winning as the last skater in a group (i.e. Shoma Uno in Men at this year’s Worlds). At the same time, skaters who consistently finished 1st in the Short didn’t like always having to skate last in the Free Skate (40 minutes or so after the warm-up is a long time to keep muscles loose and warm).

Now skaters who finish 1st or 2nd in the Short will at least have a chance to draw not to skate last. At the same time, the TV people will get the drama they want with the best skaters from the Short “fighting it out” for first place at the end of the competition.

I'm really confused about this, because Shoma did have a chance to win (a medal). His personal best total score was 276.79 at the GPF. At Worlds, Jin took the bronze with a total of 270.99. Since Shoma had 90.74 after the short, he still had a good chance to make the podium. I guess I'm not understanding why TV people wouldn't want to let that whole drama play out. As a big Shoma fan, I had very high hopes for him for the bronze and would have been most anxious to see all that. In this case, I was at Worlds but had I been watching it on TV, I know I would have loved the "fight" for the bronze. After all, anything can happen (as we saw at the GPF).

 

[karne]

Women tend to have more flexible backs, so it's only natural that the layback would be a required element in this event.

That's a massive and wrong generalization, though. Not all women have flexible backs naturally. Look at all the endlessly disparaging comments about Liza's layback. To some people, it is nothing that she has the best 3Lz ever for a lady, or that she can land a 3A. And yet Liza's only crime in the layback is that she's not a little rubber band.

Also, I find it sexist that the ISU seems to think all women are rubber bands.

 

[Blades of Passion]

That's a massive and wrong generalization, though. Not all women have flexible backs naturally.

Nobody said they all do. They tend to. If you are someone who has a very hard time with laybacks, that's a circumstance you just have to deal with. Competition is about measuring a set of skills. If you have a particular deficiency in one area, then you need to make up for it in another area. Liza's body type allows her to do jumps better than many others. She can't do a great layback. That's just how it goes. We all have to work with what we have.

 

[MK's Winter]

That's a massive and wrong generalization, though. Not all women have flexible backs naturally. Look at all the endlessly disparaging comments about Liza's layback. To some people, it is nothing that she has the best 3Lz ever for a lady, or that she can land a 3A. And yet Liza's only crime in the layback is that she's not a little rubber band. Also, I find it sexist that the ISU seems to think all women are rubber bands.

I don't agree with that generalization either but as much as people had issue with Liza's layback, I'd say our 2015 World Champion got along fine. The sideway spin has yet to do her wrong. I think a layback should be mandatory, some skaters do end up with back issues but some skaters also have back issues because of repetitive jumping. It's a catch 22. Some are better spinners other jumpers, spins help balance that out.

 

[Rissa]

I don't agree with that generalization either but as much as people had issue with Liza's layback, I'd say our 2015 World Champion got along fine. The sideway spin has yet to do her wrong. I think a layback should be mandatory, some skaters do end up with back issues but some skaters also have back issues because of repetitive jumping. It's a catch 22. Some are better spinners other jumpers, spins help balance that out.

You know what this sound like? Let me give you the interpretation my mind immediately jumped to: because some skaters have back issues because of jumps, layback spin should be mandatory so that other skaters have back issues too. Which wth. (and you probably didn't mean it)

Sure, some skaters have jump-correlated back issues, which is not a good reason to make other skaters suffer through layback spins. And what about those who suffer back issues from both the jumps and the spins? Yeah, sure, some skaters are better spinners than jumpers and they can still chose to do the layback to help balance that out. Layback being mandatory serves no one.

 

[Mathman]

That's a massive and wrong generalization, though. Not all women have flexible backs naturally.

I think it is just the nature of the sport. Of course some women have naturally flexible backs and some don't. To me, it's like gymnastics. Do women have better balance than men? I doubt it, but still the women have to do the balance beam and the men do the rings and the pommel horse.

 

[MK's Winter]

You know what this sound like? Let me give you the interpretation my mind immediately jumped to: because some skaters have back issues because of jumps, layback spin should be mandatory so that other skaters have back issues too. Which wth. (and you probably didn't mean it) Sure, some skaters have jump-correlated back issues, which is not a good reason to make other skaters suffer through layback spins. And what about those who suffer back issues from both the jumps and the spins? Yeah, sure, some skaters are better spinners than jumpers and they can still chose to do the layback to help balance that out. Layback being mandatory serves no one.

Oh no I didn't mean that at all! Sorry about that, what I meant to say was (in regards to skaters having health issues) is that it does not always come from spins or vise versa with the jumps. I think a layback or sideways spin should stay in the program more so for balance. Gracie and Polina have gorgeous side spins. I don't think that skaters should have to hair cutter into a biellmann and honestly that's probably what does the back in, the contortionist positions that come after. So not needed. I also thing spirals sequences should be in the short but that's just me.

Sorry for the first jumbled post!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Layback being mandatory serves no one.

It serves the people who are able to do them the best, providing an advantage over people who can't. It also serves the audience since Laybacks are pretty (when the right rules are in place anyway), more pretty on average when women do them as compared to men, and this is the only event where people will get to see them. Competitors being forced to improve a specific element leads to a better awareness of their body and usage of that element within the program. Asking women to do a layback is hardly some kind of an overreach.

Let's look at the 2011 U.S. Nationals Ladies Short Program:

Rachael Flatt

Mirai Nagasu

Alissa Czisny

Rachael Flatt had by far a technically weaker Layback in comparison to Mirai and Alissa, these two ladies having a couple of the best Laybacks in the World, but I would still score Rachael's program the highest of these 3 and I think the simplistic beauty of her Layback enhanced the program.

 

[Rissa]

It serves the people who are able to do them the best, providing an advantage over people who can't. It also serves the audience since Laybacks are pretty (when the right rules are in place anyway), more pretty on average when women do them as compared to men, and this is the only event where people will get to see them. Competitors being forced to improve a specific element leads to a better awareness of their body and usage of that element within the program. Asking women to do a layback is hardly some kind of an overreach.

Let's look at the 2011 U.S. Nationals Ladies Short Program:

Rachael Flatt

Mirai Nagasu

Alissa Czisny

Rachael Flatt had by far a technically weaker Layback in comparison to Mirai and Alissa, these two ladies having a couple of the best Laybacks in the World, but I would still score Rachael's program the highest of these 3 and I think the simplistic beauty of her Layback enhanced the program.

They are pretty done by those who can do them well, and those still will be done. Forced ones are less so. And pretty is not a reason good enough to suffer serious health issues.

And sorry, advantage is NOT a reason good enough to make certain skaters suffer serious health issues either. Asking a woman to do a layback IS an overreach. Let them choose.

 

[cathlen]

CD's with music for competitions are back: http://static.isu.org/media/379063/2034-council-decision_fs_music-rules.pdf

 

[edwinaskater1943]

CD's with music for competitions are back: http://static.isu.org/media/379063/2034-council-decision_fs_music-rules.pdf

CDs are not safe