2016 Rostelecom Cup Free Dance

[Ice Diva]

It's only home cooking when it's in Russia then ?. Coz Skate Canada last week was some of the worst biased home judging I had seen in years.

Because your favourites didn't win? Where's the proof?

 

[MidnightSkater]

Because your favourites didn't win? Where's the proof?

My favourites DID win but the judging was awful.

 

[Ice Diva]

My favourites DID win but the judging was awful.

By whose standards?

 

[MidnightSkater]

I think each country makes its home cooking, sometimes in a better, sometimes in a worse way. And furthermore there are "agreements" between judges. And the coach's name means a lot too( i.e. Shpilband, but non only him).
So some couples are always overscored, anywhere and anytime they skate (Chock Bates, Papadakis Cizeron), others are often, or have been often, underscored (Weaver Poje, Shibutanis, Gilles Poirier). That's my thought, of course, but the more I follow ice dancing in these years, the more I'm convinced of that.
In the other disciplines things are a little fairer.

W/P have been one of the most over-scored couples in the past two seasons ?!!.
The Shibs were over-scored at this years Skate America.
When have P/C been over-scored ?. They have been the best in the absence of V/M.

 

[MidnightSkater]

By whose standards?

Most skating fan's I know thought the judging was awful too. Some of my mates are Canadian & also thought it.

 

[Astrid56]

Could you please explain how you came up with this statement?

My assumption is based on this rule although the one that actually gave me that impression was a similar but more definitive statement. This particular one is from http://usfsa.org/content/2012-13%20Dance%20Levels%20of%20Difficulty.pdf

5.1. BASIC PRINCIPLES OF CALLING APPLICABLE TO ALL REQUIRED ELEMENTS

1. The Technical Panel shall identify what is performed despite what is listed on the Program Content Sheet (e.g. if the sheet says a Reverse Rotational Lift is planned but only the first part is completed, perhaps due to a Fall or interruption, a Rotational Lift shall be identified).

2. Adjustments to Levels shall apply to the Level determined according to the Characteristics of Levels fulfilled. They shall not result in giving No Level to a Required Element as long as the requirements for Level 1 are met.

3. To be given any Level, a Required Element must meet all the requirements for Level 1.

4. If a program concludes with the partners performing an element, the element and its Level shall be identified until the movement stops completely.

5. Elements started after the required duration of the program (plus the 10 seconds allowed) shall not be identified.

So there's a program sheet listing all the program contents (presumably submitted by the coach and agreed upon by the technical panel specifically the Technical Specialist) _ by this, I suppose it listed all the elements and levels. The Technical Specialist takes this but these are eventually adjusted according to levels/grades of execution which either elevates it or downgrades it _ case in point Evan's Twizzle it was assigned a level 4 in Skate Canada but in COR it got downgraded to level 2 because of the bobble and also for not completing it which was a worse offense hence the downgrade (not worse than falling). Maddie had a bobble in her twizzle in last GP Finals FD but she completed it so it wasn't heavily penalized. I think Tessa had a bobble in her Twizzle (FD 2016 Skate Canada) but she completed it and they received a level 3 for that_ they got hurt in GOE _ earning just .51 points (one judge didn't grade it at all, one gave a -1, another a +2 and the rest a +1).

 

[rosy14]

W/P have been one of the most over-scored couples in the past two seasons ?!!.
The Shibs were over-scored at this years Skate America.
When have P/C been over-scored ?. They have been the best in the absence of V/M.

That's your opinion, which counts as much as mine.

 

[Astrid56]

W/P have been one of the most over-scored couples in the past two seasons ?!!.
The Shibs were over-scored at this years Skate America.
When have P/C been over-scored ?. They have been the best in the absence of V/M.

The Shibs were over-scored in 2016 World Championship. P/C in 2015 World and this year's World. C/B should have won the 2015 Worlds and I totally agree of P/C winning this year's but not with the score they earned (118.17!! Maybe 116 but not 118 even they [P/C] were surprised).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

W/P have been one of the most over-scored couples in the past two seasons ?!!.
The Shibs were over-scored at this years Skate America.
When have P/C been over-scored ?. They have been the best in the absence of V/M.

Agreed they have been the best, but P/C were overscored at Worlds IMO ... Although almost everyone's scores were super unnecessarily through the roof in that FD.

I thought the Shibs were adequately scored at SA. Note their SD wasn't a crazy high number.

 

[MidnightSkater]

That's your opinion, which counts as much as mine.

Did I say it did not ?.......

 

[MidnightSkater]

Agreed they have been the best, but P/C were overscored at Worlds IMO ... Although almost everyone's scores were super unnecessarily through the roof in that FD.

I thought the Shibs were adequately scored at SA. Note their SD wasn't a crazy high number.

I totally disagree but that's what's great about skating. We see things differently.

 

[Tallorder]

It's disappointing to see that even skating fans who are deeply engaged/passionate enough in the sport, to participate in discussions on chat boards, misinterpret rules, selectively express interpretations which support their views, or become frustrated. To be clear, I don't blame the fans. To me, it says a LOT about the sport and the COP rules. It shouldn't be so difficult to understand that even the "ubers" suffer from so many misunderstandings.

Won't address all of the issues but one which I thought would be helpful to clarify:

1. The SKATERS, not the coaches, complete "ISU planned element" forms through an electronic portal at the beginning of the season, prior to EACH competition. If programs change, or the elements themselves or the order changes as choreography is adjusted, it can be accurate during each event. I emphasize skaters, because it is their electronic signature that is the sign off. NOT the coaches. Obviously, depending on the athlete, it may be that all of this is under the mandate of the coach. But, as the senior competitors are adults, and they are in essence professional athletes, they provide the information and attest to it.

2. The planned elements, however, are just that. Elements: "Twizzles" There is no indication of level provided in the form. It is not "Level 4 twizzles." To do so would be moot. Obviously, every competitor is designing and intending their elements to earn the highest possible level. Is every skater capable of executing an element worthy of earning the highest level according to the rules? Not necessarily (e.g., some non-dominant twizzles do not travel) Is every skater, coach and choreographer reading the rules and interpreting them correctly? Sadly, no.

3. For the Technical specialists, whether they are interpreting what the skater intends and coaches design - is another matter. I say "interpret" because sometimes it is very clear. Sometimes it is more of a judgment call.

Especially with footwork - it is a matter of "point of view", literally - as in, could the technical caller determine, by seeing with their own eyes, from the vantage point that they have and/or from the video that is provided to them when they "review" an element, whether a turn was performed correctly or not, to EARN the level intended. To an extent, this is what the pre-season work is about. Skate Canada's high performance camp. US Figure Skating Champs Camp. Russian Test Skates. Each of these events include judges and technical specialists, who review programs and provide ADVICE.

4. In principle, there is no "agreed upon" level PRIOR to the competition. During ice dance competitions, especially, it has always been true that the judges and the technical specialists watch the official practices. The technical specialists are looking to see what levels elements are LIKELY to earn. However the actual LEVEL awarded during the competition IS SUPPOSED TO reflect the execution of the given element during the competition itself. (I won't go into why I chose the preface "in principal" a phrase not chosen casually.)

The judges provide their assessment of the execution of a given element by awarding GOE. In theory this is separate from how their GOE ends up being included in the calculation of the final score - from the level awarded. In the instance of an obvious error, the level can be lowered (lowering base value) AND the GOE is lower as well.
The panel and coaches do NOT, however, agree on levels that will be counted in the score, in advance, leaving it to the judges to simply award grade of execution.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Did I say it did not ?.......

Forgive me, the original post this discussion sparked sounded like you were passing off opinion as fact. That may not have been your intent- text is a notoriously tricky medium when it comes to tone- but I can see how rosy came to that conclusion.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I finally got home and was able to watch the top 3 FDs.

Bobrova/Soloviev...I know we're not supposed to compare scores across competitions, but considering all of the other performances that scored 111 or more, that one did not deserve it. I think some of the judges were trying really hard to score them high enough so they may beat a clean Chock/Bates to ensure a GPF spot. I think the first part has promise, but I agree with those who say it goes on too long and they probably need a middle piece to bridge the first two thirds and the Vivaldi piece. It's so cute that Zhulin loves Four Seasons so much that he thinks it's the answer to what is obviously either choreographer's block or simple lack of imagination/limited music and dance vocabulary, but seriously man. It's so disparate from the rest of the piece. Ekaterina has improved a lot from where she started as a senior and I think Dmitri is actually a very underrated dancer. He's very strong, has a striking look on the ice, moves very well and fluidly, can handle difficulty, and is polished. I have to say this performance didn't really do much for me though I do think the FD has promise.

Chock/Bates' FD seriously does not work for me. I already thought they were sort of superficial in the way they portrayed music and this FD really highlights that. There's a serious lack of depth here. Four competitions now and I still fail to see the connection between the choreography, their interpretation, and the music/lyrics. The cuts are bad enough as it destroys the strength of the actual song, but when they're smiling and having choreography that's too on the nose (like with the first lift with Madison mouthing "tomorrow" and then transition to raising her arms to the lyric "higher") I start to question the level of sophistication. The opening moves are nice to show off Madison's flexibility, but I still don't know what it has to do with the music other than saying "oh snapping! Let's put some snappy moves!". As they're smiling their way through the song, it looks like they're just mindlessly doing Christopher Dean steps while doing Igor's patented grabbing hands holds while crossovering to one isolated piece of choreography to crossovering to a required element. It looks like a typical Chock/Bates routine with the way they're selling it too as her and Evan's facial expressions don't look much different from their past FDs. Chock's skating weaknesses is on display in that final footwork sequence as Madison was really slowing down and dragging out there to the point where Evan had to literally drag her through it and did the usual tricks that a stronger partner does for the weaker partner (picking her up to keep the flow and speed, hopping, etc.). I know people like that they're going against the grain and not doing a softer or more lyrical piece of music, but after four competitions so far, I think that novelty wore off for me and the program itself isn't good.

As for Weaver/Poje, I was expecting to like it more than other posters like with their SD, but I really didn't like that FD at all. Great rotational lift aside, it all seemed labored in places and the program doesn't go anywhere. It's a very paint-by-the-numbers routine where all I saw were the required elements. There was a part where Kaitlyn was trying way too hard to bring the drama and feeling with her arms before their final footwork sequence and it was so unnatural and forced. I have a feeling they're going to incorporate more of that as the season progresses as there's nothing else in the program (choreography, music edit) that gives the audience anything to sell the program. I don't really like the violin version of Aranjuez that Kwan used, but that would've been an improvement for this ice dance routine. I don't even know if they were even trying to skate/dance to a beat here. Also, Andrew's twizzles were seriously on the cusp of bobbling all over the place and I have a feeling he'll be having that issue all season long. They've always had the weakest twizzles of the top teams from 2015-on, and it's gotten worse, IMO.

 

[dcnative]

Did W/P get penalized for the bad twizzles? Not just Andrews off-balance point, but they were also out of sync. for the first twizzle. It looked like they got more than seven points for that element. Was the element judged correctly?

Unrelated point: as a fan of ID, I'm very disappointed by this sport at this point. I feel really bad for teams that are not being judged consistently across competitions, and I don't understand how teams continue to set goals at this point?

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Did W/P get penalized for the bad twizzles? Not just Andrews off-balance point, but they were also out of sync. for the first twizzle. It looked like they got more than seven points for that element. Was the element judged correctly?

Unrelated point: as a fan of ID, I'm very disappointed by this sport at this point. I feel really bad for teams that are not being judged consistently across competitions, and I don't understand how teams continue to set goals at this point?

Yeah, I bet a lot of teams are understandably seriously confused. That would make me so frustrated, and it might as well be 6.0 all over again.

As for W/P's twizzles, only one judge penalized them. The American judge gave them a "- 1" while the others gave them all "1"s except for two who gave them a "2". I think it's ridiculous how the American judge gave both W/P and C/B the same GOE for their twizzles in the FD though I don't think W/P deserved a "2" either.

 

[Astrid56]

I finally got home and was able to watch the top 3 FDs.

Bobrova/Soloviev...I know we're not supposed to compare scores across competitions, but considering all of the other performances that scored 111 or more, that one did not deserve it. I think some of the judges were trying really hard to score them high enough so they may beat a clean Chock/Bates to ensure a GPF spot. I think the first part has promise, but I agree with those who say it goes on too long and they probably need a middle piece to bridge the first two thirds and the Vivaldi piece. It's so cute that Zhulin loves Four Seasons so much that he thinks it's the answer to what is obviously either choreographer's block or simple lack of imagination/limited music and dance vocabulary, but seriously man. It's so disparate from the rest of the piece. Ekaterina has improved a lot from where she started as a senior and I think Dmitri is actually a very underrated dancer. He's very strong, has a striking look on the ice, moves very well and fluidly, can handle difficulty, and is polished. I have to say this performance didn't really do much for me though I do think the FD has promise.

The problem or should say the challenge for this program is the ambiguity in terms of interpretation. The choreography has to rely heavily on shapes/forms matching the mood/feel evoked by the musical patterns.

Chock/Bates' FD seriously does not work for me. I already thought they were sort of superficial in the way they portrayed music and this FD really highlights that. There's a serious lack of depth here. Four competitions now and I still fail to see the connection between the choreography, their interpretation, and the music/lyrics. The cuts are bad enough as it destroys the strength of the actual song, but when they're smiling and having choreography that's too on the nose (like with the first lift with Madison mouthing "tomorrow" and then transition to raising her arms to the lyric "higher") I start to question the level of sophistication. The opening moves are nice to show off Madison's flexibility, but I still don't know what it has to do with the music other than saying "oh snapping! Let's put some snappy moves!". As they're smiling their way through the song, it looks like they're just mindlessly doing Christopher Dean steps while doing Igor's patented grabbing hands holds while crossovering to one isolated piece of choreography to crossovering to a required element. It looks like a typical Chock/Bates routine with the way they're selling it too as her and Evan's facial expressions don't look much different from their past FDs. Chock's skating weaknesses is on display in that final footwork sequence as Madison was really slowing down and dragging out there to the point where Evan had to literally drag her through it and did the usual tricks that a stronger partner does for the weaker partner (picking her up to keep the flow and speed, hopping, etc.). I know people like that they're going against the grain and not doing a softer or more lyrical piece of music, but after four competitions so far, I think that novelty wore off for me and the program itself isn't good.

Sometimes, contemporary programs like this FD can be either blatant or just nuanced. Madi's hand gestures/movements are very suggestive of tension, pressures or emotions depicting the issues conveyed in this music. Evan's expressions of anxiety/angst imploding are very expressive of what they intend to show. But I have to admit that because of the singular theme of the music, the program would seem one-dimensional and this is restrictive, expression-wise. The lyrics while helping convey the theme can also be restrictive. The challenge of performing it just right can be an issue - if they understate it, it would look boring and unsubstantive, if they overdo it - they'll come across as superficial and melodramatic.

As for Weaver/Poje, I was expecting to like it more than other posters like with their SD, but I really didn't like that FD at all. Great rotational lift aside, it all seemed labored in places and the program doesn't go anywhere. It's a very paint-by-the-numbers routine where all I saw were the required elements. There was a part where Kaitlyn was trying way too hard to bring the drama and feeling with her arms before their final footwork sequence and it was so unnatural and forced. I have a feeling they're going to incorporate more of that as the season progresses as there's nothing else in the program (choreography, music edit) that gives the audience anything to sell the program. I don't really like the violin version of Aranjuez that Kwan used, but that would've been an improvement for this ice dance routine. I don't even know if they were even trying to skate/dance to a beat here. Also, Andrew's twizzles were seriously on the cusp of bobbling all over the place and I have a feeling he'll be having that issue all season long. They've always had the weakest twizzles of the top teams from 2015-on, and it's gotten worse, IMO.

This program to me is very promising _ the choreography needs to be fleshed out a little bit and elements integrated into the choreographic concept. BTW, I love, love Gilles/Poirier Tango - An Argentine Tango inspired FD. Now, theirs (G/P) has a lot of promise in terms of emoting and if they improve on that. it would be hard to beat. This tango program is very well choreographed/designed - cohesive and emotive. They just have to polish their lines and forms/moves and emoting ability and that program will be a dynamite.

 

[Astrid56]

... 1. The SKATERS, not the coaches, complete "ISU planned element" forms through an electronic portal at the beginning of the season, prior to EACH competition. If programs change, or the elements themselves or the order changes as choreography is adjusted, it can be accurate during each event. I emphasize skaters, because it is their electronic signature that is the sign off. NOT the coaches. Obviously, depending on the athlete, it may be that all of this is under the mandate of the coach. But, as the senior competitors are adults, and they are in essence professional athletes, they provide the information and attest to it.

2. The planned elements, however, are just that. Elements: "Twizzles" There is no indication of level provided in the form. It is not "Level 4 twizzles." To do so would be moot. Obviously, every competitor is designing and intending their elements to earn the highest possible level. Is every skater capable of executing an element worthy of earning the highest level according to the rules? Not necessarily (e.g., some non-dominant twizzles do not travel) Is every skater, coach and choreographer reading the rules and interpreting them correctly? Sadly, no.

3. For the Technical specialists, whether they are interpreting what the skater intends and coaches design - is another matter. I say "interpret" because sometimes it is very clear. Sometimes it is more of a judgment call.

Especially with footwork - it is a matter of "point of view", literally - as in, could the technical caller determine, by seeing with their own eyes, from the vantage point that they have and/or from the video that is provided to them when they "review" an element, whether a turn was performed correctly or not, to EARN the level intended. To an extent, this is what the pre-season work is about. Skate Canada's high performance camp. US Figure Skating Champs Camp. Russian Test Skates. Each of these events include judges and technical specialists, who review programs and provide ADVICE.

4. In principle, there is no "agreed upon" level PRIOR to the competition. During ice dance competitions, especially, it has always been true that the judges and the technical specialists watch the official practices. The technical specialists are looking to see what levels elements are LIKELY to earn. However the actual LEVEL awarded during the competition IS SUPPOSED TO reflect the execution of the given element during the competition itself. (I won't go into why I chose the preface "in principal" a phrase not chosen casually.)

The judges provide their assessment of the execution of a given element by awarding GOE. In theory this is separate from how their GOE ends up being included in the calculation of the final score - from the level awarded. In the instance of an obvious error, the level can be lowered (lowering base value) AND the GOE is lower as well.
The panel and coaches do NOT, however, agree on levels that will be counted in the score, in advance, leaving it to the judges to simply award grade of execution.

I understand what you are saying and I agree in principle. The fact that there is a program sheet listing the elements suggests that there are targets/standards they shoot for and the Judges evaluate the program from that perspective - they either agree (+3, etc.) or disagree (- 3, etc). Yes, the planned elements are just that but we forget that these planned elements are assigned predetermined point values that judges add to or deduct from and those values determine the levels. The judges have to start somewhere/a base to give an explainable and intelligible scores. I unwittingly used the expression "agreed upon" when I mean to say that the coaches, skaters, and technical specialists have already solid ideas what execution of the listed elements would possibly yield if done correctly and brilliantly. Skaters and skaters know what constitute a particular element and its level of difficulty and they purposely choose elements for scoring purposes. In singles, this is more obvious _ for example, skaters announced before the competition starts what jumps they'll do and at what level _ a quad, triple, double or single.

 

[moon]

The judges have nothing to do with determining the Levels Astrid56. That is solely the job of the Technical Specialist. The judges give the element a GOE which is added to the value of the level that the technical panel has called during the competition.
Every skater in every discipline designs an element to be a Level 4. Whether they are able to execute it properly for it to be called a Level 4 during the competition is another story. Something can go wrong in a lift or twizzle for instance that loses a bullet point and brings it down to a lower level. As I said that is the Tech Panels job to assess. The judges are marking the quality of the element only. The planned element sheet is there to give the panel a general idea of what is going to happen. It does not say we are planning on doing level 4 rotational lift. It just would say rotational lift.
As well, the explanation that Tallorder gave regarding how marks are given isnt something to agree or not to agree with. It is how it actually works.
It can be confusing. I hope this helps

 

[chuckm]

I guess we'll have in the GPF 2 American couples (S/S and C/B) 2 Canadian (V/M and W/P), a French one and a Russian

I'm not sure the two Canadian teams will be V/M and W/P. They might be V/M and G/P.