2023 Worlds: Free Dance | Thoughts

[Flying Feijoa]

Even if they had capped PCS at 9.5, that wouldn’t have made a difference. The base levels and GOEs determined this event.

Not to the overall placement, yes. My point is rather about the objectivity of the judging system, which is not perfect to begin with (though better than 6.0) and certainly looks worse if clearly written rules aren't followed because 'they were going to win anyway'.

I'm not disagreeing with the ability of the system to differentiate between top and intermediate teams as groups. It's more subjective when comparing 2-3 teams that are close within a group (e.g. FB/S vs F/G).

Note that the podium was comprised of all over-30 skaters. Dancers can stick around in the sport a lot longer (and indeed the discipline requires it to reach that mastery) than singles or pairs because there isn’t the pounding on the body nor is there the necessity to be tiny to complete jumps. This is going to lead to slow turnover and the difficulty of ”moving up.” So while I may not always agree with all the judging, I don’t believe “the fix is in.” Instead I try to revel in the beauty that comes from the top teams.

I do actually agree with this if you saw my earlier post. I enjoyed watching the last group but didn't feel the need to stay up to catch the scoring live.

synchro66: Thank you for your posts! Your 3 posts have been the most intelligent, objective and knowledgeable regarding this subject matter. It's so frustrating to see people who are so aggressively opinionated on forums and on social media, but don't have the knowledge or understanding of the intricacies of Ice Dance. Many people are so deep in their feelings and often respond to a pair or a program because they like them personally or like their music and their program but they don't really know anything about the specificity of the skills, the edges, the lifts, etc. The moaning and grumbling from people who don't know what they're talking about has been exhausting and highlights the worst part of social media and message boards/forums. In addition, the top 5 teams were ALL overmarked and respectively they all got the highest scores of their international seasons. It was a generous panel of judges. Thanks again for your great posts. People on this forum could learn from you.

I agree that there were way too many SBs that didn't necessarily reflect the actual performances on the day, including from my favourite teams.
However, I think it's quite unfair to lump togethet everyone with a dissenting opinion (whatever that may be) and denounce them as ignorant about ice dance. I can't speak to social media since I don't follow it closely, and I'm sure there are a good chunk of those commenting who've never done a pattern dance or even skated. But there are some current/former elite ice dancers and coaches on this forum. They don't all agree, and that's entirely normal for a highly technical yet still very subjective sport.

 

[Skater Boy]

Hm - an event that overall irriated me to be honest - if I had watched it without scores I'd maybe have enjoyed it more? Because the margin given to C/B was laughable. And to put F-B/S behind F/G (especially in the RD) is a choice.

Further down though it was good, and I'm pleased we're seeing some more younger teams coming through. They weren't the best today but I love the younger of the 2 French teams. I'm also looking forward to the Georgians trying a new theme next year.

I did think however (and this is partly me being biased but actually not much) that C/P were pretty underscored compared to the teams above them. I don't think that they are 11 points behind Gr/P. I kind of feel like they were the only team in group 2 that didn't get the group 2 GOE boost. I know most people wanted KanaDai in the top 10 (and therefore the audience was a bit tepid in it's response to C/P compared to others) but I think the judges were correct to keep them in 11th place.

I have my preferences the Finss, Czechs and both Canadians. I would have had both Canadians on the podium especially as illogical as it seems if you were not giving gold to GP. Regardless no way did Chock and Bates deserve such incredulously ridiculous scores. They are not equals or close to PC or Viture or Moir other legendary skaters from Torvill and Dean too Klimova and Ponomareko or Oksianikov and Krylova or even Navka and Kostomorov. CB kind of fall into the off year winners which there are a few Italian teams who have won worlds. I give them full credit for reworking their programs butitis hard to say it is a piece of art when while it was sold it really was a concept if you can call up that was done after the fact. Ie putting a story to the action. The Italians are technically the best usually but if youmarked what was on the ice then the Danadians and Piper and Paul should have won PCS and the Italians probably tech. GPwere really the only top team without bobbles. The dominating win by Chock and Bates might "encourage" them not to retire. Judging is fickle. Piper and Paul have gone up and down. At the start of the season and first half they were up and now it is down. CB were even beaten by the Danadians. Ice dance was the worst judge event. Most scandalous; most debatable. The top two medallists should be overjoyed. The overscoring is ridiculous though. I know we don't look at this but what value is the world record score. With changing in GOES, with the vulnerablity of event judging and tech calls, with the change in value of elements what's the point of WR. It's not like a speed record where the fastest wins. Elements values change. Originally with IJS 8in pcs would be amazing not now when 9.75 for teams that don't even compare to the greats are granted.

 

[slider11]

All politics and preferences aside, I thought ice dance judge Halina Gordon Poltarek got it right. She judged the top three closely but actually had the Italians and Canadians artistically slightly above the Americans. All in all, this wouldn't have changed the order, but I do believe she is the most knowledgeable and fair of the judges. I hope her standards and practices are emphasized in future events.

 

[moonvine]

Typically boring no place switching with world champions having a fall.

 

[viennaskater]

Not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere but Mark Hanretty and Belinda Noonan are truly the Dream team commentating for the ISU!!
I know Chris and Louise did the british eurosport commentary which wasn't too bad either.

Mark is quite good but I cannot listen to Belinda yacking constantly - I was so relieved that Chris Howarth was on Eurosport. Could have done without Louise Walden but at least she kept quiet during the performances and was less irritating than a few years ago.

 

[DSQ]

Mark is quite good but I cannot listen to Belinda yacking constantly - I was so relieved that Chris Howarth was on Eurosport. Could have done without Louise Walden but at least she kept quiet during the performances and was less irritating than a few years ago.

Yes I listened to Eurosport too and felt Chris and Louise were lovely together. Louise got quite emotional several times! Also it worked that both the ISU and Eurosport has one Singles commentator and one Dance commentator. While I liked the BBC coverage to Robin and his co commentator (Katherine?) in the dance coverage it was clear they weren’t as educated.

(Yes I did watch the last group three times with each version!)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That was an excessively generous panel indeed. I'm happy for C/B and congrats on finally getting the World title, because I feel they've had their strings of bad luck, but come on judges. They would have easily won without the fall thanks to the blatant underscoring of G/P. I hope those 9.75 judges aren't near a scoring panel for a long time - that was just so unnecessary. Their PB PCS is 58.04 and here they scored 57.22 with a fall. Best presentation scores with a fall. A freeskate PERSONAL BEST with a fall.

At least in pairs you could sort of justify the sloppy freeskate winning because of the margin from the SP. But this was a runaway the moment they stepped on the ice, and there's really no point in judging these skaters if the podium placements are pre-politicked into place that a fall makes practically zero impact on their score and placement.

Italians were great although very much held up over G/P. I actually didn't mind F/G being above FB/S, but thought the latter should have ranked higher in the RD, and F/G edging ahead in the FD. But they are essentially tied. Maddie/Even being over 6 points ahead with a fall is just sad judging.

 

[skatedreamer]

That was an excessively generous panel indeed. I'm happy for C/B and congrats on finally getting the World title, because I feel they've had their strings of bad luck, but come on judges. They would have easily won without the fall thanks to the blatant underscoring of G/P. I hope those 9.75 judges aren't near a scoring panel for a long time - that was just so unnecessary. Their PB PCS is 58.04 and here they scored 57.22 with a fall. Best presentation scores with a fall. A freeskate PERSONAL BEST with a fall.

At least in pairs you could sort of justify the sloppy freeskate winning because of the margin from the SP. But this was a runaway the moment they stepped on the ice, and there's really no point in judging these skaters if the podium placements are pre-politicked into place that a fall makes practically zero impact on their score and placement.

Italians were great although very much held up over G/P. I actually didn't mind F/G being above FB/S, but thought the latter should have ranked higher in the RD, and F/G edging ahead in the FD. But they are essentially tied. Maddie/Even being over 6 points ahead with a fall is just sad judging.

Politicking...good grief, isn't that what the IJS was supposed to prevent?

In another thread, I posted that judging by reputation/who the team's coach or their skating federation is makes absolutely no sense. The ONLY thing that should matter to anyone is the performance itself. The rest has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

If an unknown team from a tiny federation shows up with a better program and performs better than the rest of the other competitors (according to the score sheet criteria), they deserve to win. Full stop. And I'm saying this as an American who was rooting for C/B and loved their program. Their win surprised me because I assumed the fall would cost them the gold.

 

[mrrice]

Ice dance is also judged on very specific criteria that are not always clear to non-experts or from a televised broadcast. Correct edge, depth of edge, speed, knee action, coverage of the ice, are just some of those criteria.

This is why I always say, You need to be in the arena if you want to get the full effect of edge control. You can't tell on TV but, you can hear an edge change if you're in the arena. There is no commentary like you have on tv, and it's much easier to hear the edging. I remember Todd Eldredge and Timothy Goebel skating in the practices in 2001. Todd sounded like a jet and Tim sounded like a glider. Patrick Chan is IMO the Edge King. Even with the ice filled with skaters during the warm up, you could hear his edges over all the skaters. It was amazing.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Italians were great although very much held up over G/P.

I disagree that the Italians were "held up". Looking at the protocol, G/F beat G/P by almost exactly 2 points. G/F's tech base value across the competition was 3 points higher (they had a 1.88 higher BV in the RD alone) while G/P got higher GOE in both programs and higher PCS in FD. To me, that looks like the judges were happy to go with G/P but the Italians higher levels won the day.

 

[rain]

There's really no getting around the fact that C/B fell down and still got a season's best score. You really have to contort yourself into a pretzel to think this nonsense was fairly judged. It so disgusted me I've actually considered giving up on watching the sport that I've enjoyed for more than 35 years. Like others have said, I felt like I was stuck back in the 90s.

 

[viennaskater]

There's really no getting around the fact that C/B fell down and still got a season's best score.

Especially as they performed it way better at Four Continents.

 

[thatdarncat]

Yes I listened to Eurosport too and felt Chris and Louise were lovely together. Louise got quite emotional several times! Also it worked that both the ISU and Eurosport has one Singles commentator and one Dance commentator. While I liked the BBC coverage to Robin and his co commentator (Katherine?) in the dance coverage it was clear they weren’t as educated.

(Yes I did watch the last group three times with each version!)

I watched the ISU feed and although Belinda did chatter quite a lot she did know what she was talking about and I learnt something, Mark was great. I did miss hearing Robin Cousins and kept wondering what his take would be, I normally watch the BBC coverage but his co commentator knows nothing about skating, clearly does no research and just points out the bleeding obvious. I watched the highlights program and had to mute her, it seemed like Robin couldn't get a word in.

 

[thatdarncat]

There were lots of great performances in the Dance event, I loved the Finns, Czechs, Brits and the second Canadian pair to name a few but the scoring at the end did seem ridiculous especially with mistakes and falls being given a seasons best, Dance always seems to be pre-determined before the event starts. I don't necessarily argue with the placings just the inflated scores.

 

[mrrice]

There's really no getting around the fact that C/B fell down and still got a season's best score. You really have to contort yourself into a pretzel to think this nonsense was fairly judged. It so disgusted me I've actually considered giving up on watching the sport that I've enjoyed for more than 35 years. Like others have said, I felt like I was stuck back in the 90s.

I sadly, have to agree here. I thought they had a big enough lead that they'd win the gold but, I didn't think they were the winners in the Free Dance. They had a fall and Madison missed a twizzle in one of their turn sequences. That skate was nowhere near as well executed as their Nationals Free Dance and they topped that score.

 

[sisinka]

The scoring was certainly interesting. Bobbles on the twizzles for 3 out of the top 5 (C/B, G/F and, though to a lesser degree, FB/S). Looking at the breakdown of the scores, G/F's twizzles were ranked 5th out of all the teams* while C/B's placed 1st both teams still with L4s, while Paul's got marked down to a L3 (G/P still had the 3rd highest twizzle mark). To me, their twizzles looked the cleanest of the medalists so I'd be interested to see why he lost a level.

*with my G/F-loving hat on, they've been underscored and overlooked on several occasions, so I can live with their twizzles getting getting a generous call today

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...cations-1/29349-isu-communication-2484-1/file
(Sets of Twizzles start at page 14)

"Level 4 Twizzles:
Different entry edge and different direction of rotation of the two Twizzles
AND
At least 4 rotations in each of the two Twizzles
AND
At least 4 different Additional Features from 3 different Groups"
(Group A – upper body and hands position, Group B – skating and free leg position, Group C – pattern / entry / exit features)

" 6. If any part of first two Twizzles becomes a Pirouette or checked Three Turns, its Level shall be reduced: by one Level if one of the two Twizzles become Pirouettes or checked Three Turns (considered separately for each partner); "

" 3. If a loss of control with additional support (e.g. stumble/touchdown by free leg/foot and/or hand(s)) by one or both partners occurs within a Set of Twizzles and the Set of Twizzles continues without interruption, its Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per error for that partner."

Additional Feature from Groups A and B must be - "held until the number of rotations needed for that Level is fully completed (2 rotations for Level 2, 3 rotations for Level 3, 4 rotations for Level 4) "

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...ade-of-execution-chart-required-elements/file
(GOE of Required elements)
"Loss of Control without additional support (no more than two) Or Loss of Control with additional support (e.g. Stumble/Touchdown) by one" - GOE from 0 to +3

Look at the video (normal motion + slow motion of problematic parts):
https://files.fm/u/mf84bedfa

- Madison & Evan - the second set of Twizzles - Madison is doing pirouette (turning on one spot) during third and fourth rotation, Evan is doing pirouette during second and partially third rotation - Level 3 for Twizzles for both (they were given Level 4)

- Charlene & Marco - the third set - both are doing pirouette, but handbook for Technical panel mentiones pirouette for level downgrading in first two sets of Twizzles only. Marco is strugling during second set - going over toe-pick and losing balance - he doesn't hold arm position established in last rotation - so the established arm position was held for 3 rotations only - but they both had this feature from Group A (upper body and hand position) established for 4 rotations in the first set of Twizzles - so the level 4 is still there. Loss of control without additional support means GOE from 0 to +3. Judge number 3 gave GOE +5, judge number 6 GOE +4.

- Piper & Paul - second set of Twizzles – Paul goes over toe-pick and is slowly losing balance during fourth rotation - I think it was taken like loss of control with additional support. It was partially hidden because he exited second set putting right leg on the ice anyway. But if you compare it with Piper, you will see the difference in keeping center of balance.
If judges would mention loss of control they could apply the same rule like in Marco's case - GOE from 0 to +3. Actually Piper & Paul got +5 by two judges and +4 by four judges.

Looking at Handbooks I didn't find punishment for scratching / going over toe-pick during Sets of Twizzles – no mention in rules for these cases. (If somebody knows feel free to correct me.) It only occurs that such mistakes are problem in Twizzle in Step Sequences - turn is not counted then. Which I don't understand. If piroutte causes reduce of level, scratching / going over toe-pick should as well lead to reducing level.

Judges didn't have possibility of element‘s slow motion in 2006. In 2023...they still don't have element‘s slow motion. But some mistakes can be easily overlooked in normal speed, you need slow motion indeed. In Twizzles and Step and Pattern Sequences judges would need it. It doesn't have much sense to give higher GOE to couple who is scratching in edge work or Twizzle work and to give lower GOE to couple who goes clean. But without slow motion judges may not know for sure which couple goes "cleaner".

 

[Anna K.]

I wonder if ice metrics could be applied on twizzle sets similarly to how the technology was used to measure individual jumps?
It would not do the judges' work, sure enough. However, lesser speed/ice coverage or a dissonance between the speed of partners could indicate that judges need to review that set slow-mo. Oh, and slow-mo option should then be made available, too

 

[chuckm]

C/B did not fall on an ELEMENT. That is why they received only -1 for the fall, but no other loss of points.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I wonder if ice metrics could be applied on twizzle sets similarly to how the technology was used to measure individual jumps?
It would not do the judges' work, sure enough. However, lesser speed/ice coverage or a dissonance between the speed of partners could indicate that judges need to review that set slow-mo. Oh, and slow-mo option should then be made available, too

There was no review needed on most of the twizzle errors, they were blatantly wrong in normal speed (to the trained eye at least). I do think that technology could be applied to turn cleanliness though based on certain metrics

 

[chuckm]

Especially as they performed it way better at Four Continents.

To repeat: Chock/Bates did not fall on an element----if they had, they would have lost 4-5 points, instead of just the -1 for the fall. Skaters get deductions for extended lifts all the time, and no one ever complains when they wind up on the podium anyway.