2024 Worlds: Pairs' thoughts and comments

[Mathman]

Regarding the US Pairs performances here. Let's set placement aside because that's comparative to other teams.

Instead, let's focus on the statistic I brought up earlier, which is entirely within the pairs' control.

3 out of 18 on jump elements and throws. As I said before, each of the three US pair teams had an opportunity for 3 jumping passes and 3 throws over the course of the entire event. Each of them successfully executed exactly 1 element. That's not unfair negativity - it's a fact.

Of course, I hope for better things next year. As I have pretty much for many many years.

But I'm not sure things will get better unless some sort of fundamental change is made. What that change might be, I don't know. Perhaps we look at what hasn't been working for 50 years, give or take an exception or two, and try NOT doing that.

Here's what I think First, it is not useful to blame an athlete for not being better than he is. It's not like they deliberately go out there and mess up just to annoy us fans. So when we say "We need to do something about it," that We can only mean the USFSA, or maybe the U.S. figure skatimg culture more nroadly. There is a deep current in the American psyche that holds that the best government s the least government (who wants to "governed," after all?) The USFSA has never been much interested in ruling figure skating with an iron first and imposing its will on the individuals who are active in the sport, mostly volunteers and children.

In fact, figure skating in the U.S. is an intensely individulal sport. This has pushed us in the following direction. The most promising young skaters are encouraged to work on their jumps. If you can't jump, you can try pairs. If you really can't jump your ticket is ice dance. And if you really, really can't jump there is always synchro.

The only truly outstanding pairs skaters that the U.S. ever produced were Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner (altho we have had some good ones, such as Kitty and Peter Carruthers, Ina and Zimmerman -- though I liked Ina with Jason Dungeon better, even as I maintain a fondness for the dance team of Madison Chock and Greg Zuererlein -- and Meno and Sand.) The team of Tai and Randy was unusual in many ways, the most striking being that he was only a couple of inches taller than she was. This resulted in problems with some technical elements, in particular the triple twist -- he struggled to toss her high enough off the ground to get in the revolutions. But in compensation, their unison was astonishing. The very definition of two skating as one.

In the late 1980s the U.S. had a promising (world junior champions) team in Yamaguchi and Galindo. They broke up when Kristi's coach married a Canadian and moved out of the U.S. Yamaguchi follwed the coach, but Galindo was in different circumstances and couldn't make the move. The USFSA did not intervene -- it was not the business of U.S. Fingure Skating to tell a coach who to marry. Rudy was sad (more so than the eyes-on-the-prize Kristi), but in the end it worked out for both of them, Rudy eventually winning the U.S. championship and a world nronze medal in men's singles (coached by his sister). Much later, all was forgiven and Rudy even served as coach to Kristi's daughert for a hot minute.

I suppose the USFSA could have ponied up some money to support Galindo's continuation in pairs, but they didn't. A few years later, though, they found it within their means to pay Michelle Kwan $900,000 per year for her service as (literally) the poster girl of U.S.(ladies' singles) figure skating. (I know this because official financial statements of non-profits like USFS have to list how they spand their money, and these statements are available to the public.)

The team of Yamaguchi and Galindo had the oposite problem compared to Babilonia and Gardner. Kristi and Rudy were both good at individual technical skills, but thier unison was compromised by being "mirror skaters," rotating their jumps in opposite directions. Rudy dudn't win an Olympic gold medal, but I heard that they named a street after him in San Jose: the Rue de Galindo (no. I made that up. )

 

[skylark]

. Rudy dudn't win an Olympic gold medal, but I heard that they named a street after him in San Jose: the Rue de Galindo (no. I made that up. )

 

[skylark]

Here's what I think First, it is not useful to blame an athlete for not being better than he is. It's not like they deliberately go out there and mess up just to annoy us fans.

 

[TontoK]

I want to make clear that I'm not blaming athletes for not being better. Of course they're not messing up on purpose.

I am talking about the discipline as a whole. If these are promising athletes, and I believe they generally are, then what is missing in terms of support? What can USFSA do to lift the global competitiveness of US pairs? And as I've said numerous times, I don't know what the answer is. And I don't know what they do now.

 

[labgoat]

Pairs at worlds this year was the best of times and the worst of times. The best countries for pairs continue to be the Canadians, Italians and Germans with notable exceptions of the Canadian trained Japanese and the Hungarian and Georgian couples. There are some interesting new couples from non-traditional countries developing nicely that just need time. The same cannot be said for the Americans who struggled mightily this year. Emily & Spencer clearly have not had enough time to recover from his injury and their lack of training time showed. They remain the brightest light for USA. Ellie & Danny are going to have to reset and try to figure out what keeps going wrong on their throw jumps and her solo jumps at times in order to move up. Their other elements are fine and they show great charisma. Valentina & Max just cannot seem to overcome the solo and throw jump errors that drag their scores down, despite having some of the other best elements. Their future remains unsure with new teams forming to threaten them. Cheng Peng & Lei Wang show amazing potential but also need more time to develop. I think we will see great improvement next year for them as they have more training time.

 

[labgoat]

One more comment on the amazing Deana & Max who believed in themselves and put in the hard work to give us two spectacular skates that inspired us all.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree that the level of pairs skating isn’t in its golden era and this season has had a lot to be desired (especially Euros)… but this Worlds had some strong peak skates. It wasn’t just given to S/D. They arguably would have come top 5 in probably every Worlds in the past decade, even Worlds with Russia and China and Aliona. Even if you slash their PCS into 8.25/8.5.

If your idea of a strong worlds is everyone in the top 5 pulling 210+ that is a rarity.

 

[moonvine]

Canada just won with a 40 year old American (and her Canadian partner).

A 40 year old American who had to leave the US to skate because USFS wanted nothing to do with her.

 

[moonvine]

What do I think about US pairs? In a rebuilding mode. I was thrilled for Deanna and Max and a bit sorry that she couldn't find an American partner. She and Danny O'Shea would have been great, but Deanna and Max rock and will always have my support!

Back to US Pairs. Sorry to say but Ellie and Timmy the US junior champions from 2023 did not have a stellar Senior debut. They didn't attempt any triples and had a botched lift, (luckily no one got hurt.) I also prefer our current junior champions, Flores/Wang who as I noted before landed sbs triple salchows sbs double axel combo and two throw triples. They outskated all of our senior teams at Nationals!

I'll always have a soft spot for Danny O'Shea and I'm not giving up on him and his partner, nor Chan/Howe.. and there are some new pairs in the making. As always,as a US pair fan, you need patience, perseverence and loads of perspective.

Ellie and Timmy are amazing. They purposely watered down their routine at their Senior debut. But they are very, very special.

 

[Skater Boy]

Here's what I think First, it is not useful to blame an athlete for not being better than he is. It's not like they deliberately go out there and mess up just to annoy us fans. So when we say "We need to do something about it," that We can only mean the USFSA, or maybe the U.S. figure skatimg culture more nroadly. There is a deep current in the American psyche that holds that the best government s the least government (who wants to "governed," after all?) The USFSA has never been much interested in ruling figure skating with an iron first and imposing its will on the individuals who are active in the sport, mostly volunteers and children.

In fact, figure skating in the U.S. is an intensely individulal sport. This has pushed us in the following direction. The most promising young skaters are encouraged to work on their jumps. If you can't jump, you can try pairs. If you really can't jump your ticket is ice dance. And if you really, really can't jump there is always synchro.

The only truly outstanding pairs skaters that the U.S. ever produced were Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner (altho we have had some good ones, such as Kitty and Peter Carruthers, Ina and Zimmerman -- though I liked Ina with Jason Dungeon better, even as I maintain a fondness for the dance team of Madison Chock and Greg Zuererlein -- and Meno and Sand.) The team of Tai and Randy was unusual in many ways, the most striking being that he was only a couple of inches taller than she was. This resulted in problems with some technical elements, in particular the triple twist -- he struggled to toss her high enough off the ground to get in the revolutions. But in compensation, their unison was astonishing. The very definition of two skating as one.

In the late 1980s the U.S. had a promising (world junior champions) team in Yamaguchi and Galindo. They broke up when Kristi's coach married a Canadian and moved out of the U.S. Yamaguchi follwed the coach, but Galindo was in different circumstances and couldn't make the move. The USFSA did not intervene -- it was not the business of U.S. Fingure Skating to tell a coach who to marry. Rudy was sad (more so than the eyes-on-the-prize Kristi), but in the end it worked out for both of them, Rudy eventually winning the U.S. championship and a world nronze medal in men's singles (coached by his sister). Much later, all was forgiven and Rudy even served as coach to Kristi's daughert for a hot minute.

I suppose the USFSA could have ponied up some money to support Galindo's continuation in pairs, but they didn't. A few years later, though, they found it within their means to pay Michelle Kwan $900,000 per year for her service as (literally) the poster girl of U.S.(ladies' singles) figure skating. (I know this because official financial statements of non-profits like USFS have to list how they spand their money, and these statements are available to the public.)

The team of Yamaguchi and Galindo had the oposite problem compared to Babilonia and Gardner. Kristi and Rudy were both good at individual technical skills, but thier unison was compromised by being "mirror skaters," rotating their jumps in opposite directions. Rudy dudn't win an Olympic gold medal, but I heard that they named a street after him in San Jose: the Rue de Galindo (no. I made that up. )

 

[Skater Boy]

Wow that was so informative. I thought Kristi wanted to focus on singles as well was part of the issue about her split with Rudi. Poor guy but he had that moment at Nationals and a bronze at worlds. Wow so much for complaining about Russia state supporting their athletes. $900,000 for Michelle Kwan and that was like almost 25 to30 years ago. I wouldn't worry too much about the pairs. They still have two teams at worlds And the skating world in pairs can easily catch up when the current world champs are based on a 40 year old without an big elements like a throw quad.

 

[4everchan]

Wow that was so informative. I thought Kristi wanted to focus on singles as well was part of the issue about her split with Rudi. Poor guy but he had that moment at Nationals and a bronze at worlds. Wow so much for complaining about Russia state supporting their athletes. $900,000 for Michelle Kwan and that was like almost 25 to30 years ago. I wouldn't worry too much about the pairs. They still have two teams at worlds And the skating world in pairs can easily catch up when the current world champs are based on a 40 year old without an big elements like a throw quad.

I won't comment on the part of your post about Deanna's age but let me ask you a honest question : why mention quads when nobody has done them since the new rules (except once with Sui/Han's quad twist) Nobody is doing quads in pairs anymore and they certainly won't do them any time soon. Not worth the risk at all.

 

[NanaPat]

I won't comment on the part of your post about Deanna's age but let me ask you a honest question : why mention quads when nobody has done them since the new rules (except once with Sui/Han's quad twist) Nobody is doing quads in pairs anymore and they certainly won't do them any time soon. Not worth the risk at all.

Somebody said in an interview that he (and partner) wanted to start training quads. I think it was Matteo G. He did say "but we want to do it safely".

 

[skylark]

A 40 year old American who had to leave the US to skate because USFS wanted nothing to do with her.

I don't see it that way.

 

[4everchan]

Somebody said in an interview that he (and partner) wanted to start training quads. I think it was Matteo G. He did say "but we want to do it safely".

Honestly, there are a billion things they could work on that would bring them closer to the top before quads.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Removing pairs representing China and Russia, at 2019 Worlds the success rate on the twist (triple, non-negative GOE) was 67.9%, on sbs jumps (triples with non-negative GOE, both solo and in combination) 19% and on the throws (triple, non-negative GOE) 61.9%.
At Worlds this season (removing the Chinese pair, and those who didn't qualify for the Free, for comparability), the success rate on the twist was 81.6%, on the sbs jumps 43.9% and on the throws 66.7%.
There were indeed more falls this season, but also a significant uptick in sbs triples, which seems to explain some of those additional falls.

Some things have improved, some have not, but the "rest" of the field is not "much worse" than it used to be.

Simplistic stats on paper do not tell the story and your attempted dismissal of James/Cipres is wrong. The controversy off the ice has nothing to do with what they accomplished on the ice. The field is absolutely worse than it used to be, across the board. The unison, explosiveness, performance quality, and choreographic interest have all diminished.

Regarding lifts... Michael was often wobbly on his lifts too...The only area we could talk about : SBS jumps... are they as good as MTM 2.0 ? Perhaps not

Moore-Towers/Marino did not have worse lifts at their best and the SBS jumps were hardly the only better thing. Their throws were better, their SBS spin was better, their speed was better, their edges were better on the whole, they skated closer together, they had better transitions, and more cohesion as a pair. Deanne/Max are better on the Triple Twist, but that's it.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Simplistic stats on paper do not tell the story and your attempted dismissal of James/Cipres is wrong. The controversy off the ice has nothing to do with what they accomplished on the ice.

Except that it has everything to do with it when someone should not even have had the opportunity to get those accomplishments in the first place. Everything after 2017 was them skating on stolen time and his career should have ended the moment he decided to converse inappropriately with a 13-year-old. This isn't a controversy, it's a crime - The only "controversy" here is that he managed to escape justice by fleeing the country.

But I guess there will always be people, who say "Separate the art from the artist" - And I ask how far are you willing to go with that? Would you still be able to "separate the art from the artist" if that 13-year-old was you? Or your sister? Or your daughter?
Great for you if you could, but I can't separate the art from the artist even without a personal connection to the case - I don't even really manage to enjoy Elvis Presley because of his very weird relationship with Priscilla whom he met when she was 14 and he was 24, and he is long dead.

The field is absolutely worse than it used to be, across the board. The unison, explosiveness, performance quality, and choreographic interest have all diminished.

Is it though? Across the board, huh? Let me remind you of some of the skates of the lower-placed teams in that season (sorry for using the skates from Euros, I couldn't find the ones from Worlds):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC_srbh3thA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dGjDe6nZfU

Are they actually skating more closely together than lower-placed teams now? More in unison? Do they have more explosiveness? More performance quality maybe - But that was not the case for all of the teams either, I mean that's not something I would accuse Tarasova/Morozov of.
And that's without wanting to be rude - Clearly Laura found a more suitable partner soon after, and Ghilardi/Ambrosini have improved a lot, I just picked two teams at random.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm not interested in moving the goalpost on the definition of "the level has dropped across the board". I've clearly been talking about the top level of pairs competition and for me this past season was one of the weakest ever.

Would you still be able to "separate the art from the artist" if that 13-year-old was you? I don't even really manage to enjoy Elvis Presley because of his very weird relationship with Priscilla whom he met when she was 14 and he was 24, and he is long dead.

That's your own personal problem. The work exists on its own and should be judged as such. How you want to feel about Elvis himself is something else, or for example a scientist who discovers the cure for cancer and also happens to be a supporter of Putin. The notes of the music and the molecules of the medicine will always remain what they are, regardless of what you feel about a separate entity. And you of course would choose to be cured of cancer, regardless of disliking the person who invented the cure.

As for the actual incident involving Cipres, the teenager in the case said they initiated the sexting themself and did not want to press any charges and did not feel like anything wrong happened; they also gladly kept the picture. What would you be saying if another teenager was the one who sent a picture, as happens millions of times per day in the world? Legally, all of these youngsters who are even just keeping sexts on their devices from other youngsters are breaking the law, but that's not logical. As for asking "what if it was me", before 13 years old I was more than curious and actively seeking out "mature" material, as were other kids around me. It's human nature and it's only gotten more overt in recent decades with technology. Anyway, the more important point is how wrong it is for you to use the word "predator", as if Cipres was hanging around school yards and trying to lure young people into illicit activities, or worse. That's a gross mischaracterization of what should be viewed as a misdemeanor in my opinion.

 

[noskates]

Math - was there some reason you left out Brandon Frazier and Alexa Scimeca? I personally prefer them to many of the pairs skaters you mentioned. Also - times are different. Randy and Tai didn't have to do triples and Kristi and Rudi barely got out of the junior ranks before they went their separate ways. I think the biggest problem with US Pairs - and I don't have an answer for it - is that the partnerships give up too soon. Not sure what the reasons for that are, and they're probably different from pair to pair.

As for Morgan Cipres - he was not a predator. He made a very, very stupid mistake and has definitely paid for it with the loss of his career. There have been more egregious acts from other skaters for sure! When I look at some of the footage of him with Vanessa I think he was one of the best male pairs skaters. (check out their Sound of Silence program) He was graceful, he was a beast when it came to strength, and he could do the jumps. I think in these times some people are wayyy too quick to judge and be holier-than-thou with their moralistic opinions. I'm not condoning what he did by any means, but to call him a predator is (in the words of Blades) a gross mischaracterization. By the way - this was totally off topic from the title of the thread.

 

[saine]

As for the actual incident involving Cipres, the teenager in the case said they initiated the sexting themself and did not want to press any charges and did not feel like anything wrong happened; they also gladly kept the picture. What would you be saying if another teenager was the one who sent a picture, as happens millions of times per day in the world? Legally, all of these youngsters who are even just keeping sexts on their devices from other youngsters are breaking the law, but that's not logical. As for asking "what if it was me", before 13 years old I was more than curious and actively seeking out "mature" material, as were other kids around me. It's human nature and it's only gotten more overt in recent decades with technology. Anyway, the more important point is how wrong it is for you to use the word "predator", as if Cipres was hanging around school yards and trying to lure young people into illicit activities, or worse. That's a gross mischaracterization of what should be viewed as a misdemeanor in my opinion.

Morgan Cipres is charged with a 3rd degree felony by the state of Florida. It doesn't matter what the teenager in the case feels about the picture, he is charged with committing a crime. That's not a misdemeanor, that is a serious crime that he has been charged with that he has not faced yet.

What other teenagers do with pictures is irrelevant. What matters is the crime he is charged with committing in his case.
And in no way should adults be sending illicit pictures to teenagers, it is in no way some misdemeanor.