Can Chan be on the top again?

[adelia]

Can he be? Yes
Will he be? Unlikely.

 

[shiroKJ]

...and so the Chan vs Hanyu wars begin.

Came as soon as the Off-season started.

 

[jenaj]

If he comes back, he will be fighting for the top spot and will get it quite a few times.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Came as soon as the Off-season started.

*cough* There's still WTT. Everyone might think it's a useless cheesfest, but at least let us use it to push the off-season fan-wars back a little, okay?

 

[Jaana]

I believe he can be on the top again, but only if he understands to get an excellent jumping coach.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I believe he can be on the top again, but only if he understands to get an excellent jumping coach.

Funny Jason Brown is not incessantly offered this same advice re his lack of a quad jump. Or Mao Asada and all the under-rotating and wrong edge jumpers. If a skater's jump success is a matter of the coach, then all Men will be great consistent 3A and quad jumpers. And there would be no fear of Shim Amano for the Ladies. I believe Patrick's issue with his 3A is the same as that of his Olympic LP. It is mental. He has the technique, as he can do beautiful 3A, but he needs to lighten up about it.

 

[alia jackson]

Any chance of a bromance between Yuzu and Patrick

 

[MIM]

:thumbsup:I can't agree with you more.

Of course he can. I don't know why you are concerned about his ability. As long as he is healthy and determined, why not.

Personally I don't feel any men mentioned here has reached yet where Chan was at his peak. I am not just talking about the scores and winning the events. To me Chan is still the best male skater in the current competitive figure skating scene.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Any chance of a bromance between Yuzu and Patrick

They are friendly but real friendships happen more often among training mates and those who grow up together in Junior competitions. Long time rivalries often lead to friendships because of the frequent encounters. E.g. Chan/Kozuka/Takahashi and Hanyu/Han Yan.

 

[xibsuarz]

At this stage, it's not a matter of who performs clean or not. The technicals have been rising so much on the men's field this last few years a clean FS it's kind of like a miracle (looking back since, idk, 2013?). Falls don't take as much points off your score as using easier elements does. Nowadays it's not a matter of skating clean or not (if the skaters has the techicals and skates clean then there's nothing you can argue against it but that's off the point), but a matter of having a techically challenging program and not melting down regardless of a couple of mistakes one may have. Delivering consistently good programs is what puts the skater at the top, even with falls.
These skaters walk on a very fine line between the potential scoring their program may have and the potential mistakes it carries, the thing is that their programs are not way beyond their abilities. There are skaters with very packed programs filled with quads, but a mistake will most likely lead to mistakes on the rest of the programs. Chan is good at avoiding that, he may have a couple of mistakes but the rest is usually excellent, and it's not like he has lost his condition since he didn't stop skating altogether, so that's why he can compete with the current top guys. He just needs to get used to the 'competition mentality', so to speak, again.

 

[Violet Bliss]

At this stage, it's not a matter of who performs clean or not. The technicals have been rising so much on the men's field this last few years a clean FS it's kind of like a miracle (looking back since, idk, 2013?). Falls don't take as much points off your score as using easier elements does. Nowadays it's not a matter of skating clean or not (if the skaters has the techicals and skates clean then there's nothing you can argue against it but that's off the point), but a matter of having a techically challenging program and not melting down regardless of a couple of mistakes one may have. Delivering consistently good programs is what puts the skater at the top, even with falls.
These skaters walk on a very fine line between the potential scoring their program may have and the potential mistakes it carries, the thing is that their programs are not way beyond their abilities. There are skaters with very packed programs filled with quads, but a mistake will most likely lead to mistakes on the rest of the programs. Chan is good at avoiding that, he may have a couple of mistakes but the rest is usually excellent, and it's not like he has lost his condition since he didn't stop skating altogether, so that's why he can compete with the current top guys. He just needs to get used to the 'competition mentality', so to speak, again.

:agree:

Jeremy Abbott is an example of someone with all the goods but can't hold it together with an early mistake.

Clean easy programs can't beat almost clean difficult programs. Also these days BV and TES are more and more important because PCS has a ceiling and inflation has narrowed the gap between the best and the rest. Raising the BV is necessary to win but it also increases the risks. So much is on the state of the skater on the day of competition.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Definitely.

I noticed the guys at Worlds didn't clear 90 points PCS for their FS, and unless Chan royally bombs (like 2013 Worlds), that isn't a problem for him.

He can certainly win his GP events (or at least place 2nd) and make the GPF easily. He'll have to increase his tech content to be a sure bet against Hanyu, but 250+ in every competition shouldn't be too tough for him.

 

[beki]

If Chan doesn't up his base value, he needs to be more consistent than he was in the past.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Who among the top contenders are consistent? Those with multiple quads.

 

[beki]

Have 2 3As. Don't fall more than once or twice in an LP. That's all I'm saying, his cushion is less now.

 

[4everchan]

When is the last time Chan skated anything cleanly?

Vancouver games, failure... given the 5th place coz the games were in Vancouver.
London WC failure... given the 1st place coz the WC was in Canada.
Sochi games...failure given the 2nd place based on his federation.

If Chan was representing, as example, Taiwan... it would have been a different story.
And of course, just like in the case of other big federations...his "advantage" are the PCS scores as technically he is not that strong.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/SEG002.HTM

At least Hanyu is entertaining but I give you one thing, I also want a clean skate from someone winning the Worlds/Olympics in men, falls should be more penalized than they currently are.

Your comment is very harsh and I think that the thread is asking a simple question: can Chan win again… That's why my answer at the beginning was a simple yes…. there's no need, to get harsh and demolish a skater who has done great things for the sport. Some people do not like him, but it would be nice if a bit more respect could be observed for someone who has brought up PCS to a higher level, like Jeffrey Buttle did before him.

In vancouver, Chan, yes had won a medal in the previous year WC but he was not expected to win it…. Some star skaters were returning for the OG and made top of the podium. 5th was a great result for him.. He was still a very young skater (19) and we, Canadians, since you seem to really have a problem with Skate Canada, were very proud of him, V/M and of course Joannie. It would have been a nice surprise, and we were wishful thinking but really, the skater who gave us more sadness was jeffrey who had decided to retire and not continue until home games…

In Sochi, many said that it was Yuzu who was held up . I don't like these statements at all. Most top male skaters had issues in Sochi, like it is the trend these few recent years. It's rare that ANY of the WC or OG have shown two perfectly clean skates WHICH contained high technical levels. Guys have to take risks to win it… and sometimes, it pays off…. but clean skates are nowadays rare… What keeps Chan up is that he doesn't get edge calls or U/R calls… When he falls, he falls…same with Yuzu… but usually gets credited for rotation. He also fights for his level 4, has the best footwork and components by far. And FYI, he skated a wonderful program just prior to the OG in TEB. I was blown away with it… He also has 3 quads planned (1 in SP and 2 in FP) which usually get landed or at least fully rotated. So, I am not sure what you mean by technically not that strong…. his 3A is his nemesis, but for some seasons, he's landed it just as well as many others…

Regarding entertaining, that's subjective. I find Chan, Ge and Ten more entertaining than Plushie, Yuzu or Javi… but that's my personal taste.

If we can agree on one thing: perhaps falls should be more penalized, but how would that work out without slowing down technical progress and risk taking? You would favour skaters who don't even bother putting in difficult jumping passes… I don't think that it would be such a great idea for the sport…. and since you think that Chan's technique isn't that great, well wouldn't that encourage him to throw in less risky elements, and watch others fall, while he'd skate brilliant programs full of wonderful steps and transitions?

To conclude, YES Chan is great and can do it all over again. He has wished to take a year for himself but he is still fit. He did really well in the Japan open this fall. He has often said that the plan was to return for 2015-16 season and I don't think the sport has evolved so much this season that he is out of it…. after Vancouver, Joannie Rochette took a year off…. and it was unsure she would come back or not… but there, it was completely different… girls were doing 3-3- combos which she has never landed in competition as far as I know and she wouldn't have been able to keep up… but I haven't seen anything in this year's WC for males that was superior to previous worlds and if anything, with Chan back, the challenge for others will be bigger…

 

[4everchan]

TOTALLY! Thank you! It's nice to read words that I don't have to type and agree with what I wish to type LOL

:thumbsup:I can't agree with you more.


Personally I don't feel any men mentioned here has reached yet where Chan was at his peak. I am not just talking about the scores and winning the events. To me Chan is still the best male skater in the current competitive figure skating scene.

 

[xibsuarz]

Who among the top contenders are consistent? Those with multiple quads.

Depends on what you consider consistent. Does consistent to you means constantly clean programs? Then there's nobody. Does it mean being on the podium constantly? Then Fernandez medaled on every single competition he was at this season and nothing below silver. Does it mean not melting down? Then there are a few more candidates in there. The thing is that these guys have 2 or 3 quads AND 2x3A, aside from a smart layout with the combos to get the extra 10%. So the BV alone of those elements make up for a fall. Patrick only has one 3A when he can do another one just fine. The lack of a 3A puts him behind in the technicals, slightly, but we saw it at Worlds, the difference in points was small. So he's got two choices from my POV. First, rise his BV and sacrifice some mistakes, in that case he'll be on the same path that Hanyu, Fernandez and Ten are right now. Or second, work for a clean program with the same level he had last season and get as much as he can from GOEs and PCS, which is kind of what Jason Brown is doing (only with no quads). IMO, having the clean skate is harder (though that practically gives him gold) so I'd think he would go for stepping up on BV, but that's just me.

 

[Cherryy]

Definitely. Yes, he does not have the TES advantage but as many people said - it very often comes down to who stays on their feet. I just have a feeling that Chan could be more consistent now because of a different mindset. His Japan Open last year was a magnificent performance, I hope he sticks with this long program. If he can get a technical coach to help him minimize the errors caused by faulty technique, he might very well compete with Javier, Yuzuru and Ten.

Frankly, even if he's not perfectly prepared, who could really challenge him apart from the guys mentioned above? Americans either don't have the technical goods (sorry Jason ) or are very inconsistent. Nam isn't going to challenge Chan - he's Canada's favourite. I would say Chan is bound to make the grand prix final though placing higher than 4th there might be a real challenge. Next season is going to be so much fun!

 

[beki]

Depends on what you consider consistent. Does consistent to you means constantly clean programs? Then there's nobody. Does it mean being on the podium constantly? Then Fernandez medaled on every single competition he was at this season and nothing below silver. Does it mean not melting down? Then there are a few more candidates in there. The thing is that these guys have 2 or 3 quads AND 2x3A, aside from a smart layout with the combos to get the extra 10%. So the BV alone of those elements make up for a fall. Patrick only has one 3A when he can do another one just fine. The lack of a 3A puts him behind in the technicals, slightly, but we saw it at Worlds, the difference in points was small. So he's got two choices from my POV. First, rise his BV and sacrifice some mistakes, in that case he'll be on the same path that Hanyu, Fernandez and Ten are right now. Or second, work for a clean program with the same level he had last season and get as much as he can from GOEs and PCS, which is kind of what Jason Brown is doing (only with no quads). IMO, having the clean skate is harder (though that practically gives him gold) so I'd think he would go for stepping up on BV, but that's just me.

Yes, perfect explanation.