Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

[mcq]

whole post

This is nothing but the truth. Agreed to every words :agree:

 

[plushyfan]

I totally agree with Chan. Tara and Alexi are perfect examples. One might even say Michele too. But have to agree that those Quads are sure nice to see in competition.

Alexei had a congenital problem.

 

[mrrice]

probably feels like he has to, if hes in any shot of podium

Patrick has been on more Podiums than every active male skater outside of Hanyu. He is nearing the end of his career and I think after all his time in rinks, he knows what he's talking about. I'll be "Over" 50 on the 25th of April and there are times that I still feel it in my hip flexor when I climb a lot of stairs and I injured it when I was in 10th grade. I saw a retired skater (I think it was Karen Magnussen) at Worlds in 2001 and she had a noticeable limp. I have no idea why, but she wasn't on crutches or using a cane so I was thinking it may have been a result of her long skating career.

 

[padme21]

I'm not for limiting quads. Sure there's a risk to ones health. It's a sport someone's bound to get injured. If a skater can skate a 4-5 quad program cleanly why punish them for it. A sport has to evolve and grow. I'm afraid that if they start limiting how many quad the men can do the men's event will turn into the women's event. Which is boring and predictable. With the ladies skating nearly identical programs. Sameness is the word I used to describe the ladies event at worlds.

 

[lilsailor]

Patrick has been on more Podiums than every active male skater outside of Hanyu. He is nearing the end of his career and I think after all his time in rinks, he knows what he's talking about. I'll be "Over" 50 on the 25th of April and there are times that I still feel it in my hip flexor when I climb a lot of stairs and I injured it when I was in 10th grade. I saw a retired skater (I think it was Karen Magnussen) at Worlds in 2001 and she had a noticeable limp. I have no idea why, but she wasn't on crutches so I was thinking it may have been a result of long skating career.

Two years to land 4S with any kind of consistency? Patrick has taken a very careful approach to regain and improve on his technical difficulty since his comeback last season and the progress has been amazing. He started out with one quad and one 3A in his LP and by 4CC he landed two quads and two 3A beautifully even though Worlds 2016 was a mess. He started this season with two quads and two 3A but started including 4S in his LP at Skate Canada, and by Worlds he landed a text book 4S in a three quad two 3A LP. Not bad for an old guy, eh?

If and when Chan adds a quad to his program, it is always a carefully thought out process. There wouldn't be great sacrifice of program components that he values but as his fan I would advocate for him to add difficulty safely even with a small degree of reducing the not so essential program components. These days PCS comes with quads anyway. Patrick has most likely another year of competition to go and there wouldn't be years of multiple quad practices and performances after that. So if he can do it safely and not incur injury next season, I say go ahead to show us a beautiful 4F his fans have been hoping for. Then he will still have years of artistic performances to bring us. As fans, we are very happy and supportive that he is careful with his health and also about his ability to balance technical difficulty with artistry.



Chan has been on the podium regularly since his comeback. However, winning medals is no longer the top priority with him and his fans. He has been very successful in achieving his personal goals, and in due process, medals are won. We celebrate the progress, the medals, and especially the performances. I will be extremely happy for him to win the big titles but am very happy if he just keep on being the all round wonderful skater who brings us truly amazing and memorable performances. I think that's where his mind is at too these days. After all, he has had medals galore in his career.

The difference with the youngsters is that one needs to hurry to be the first in some new accomplishment. Yet they are still physically growing with years of training and competing ahead if they can stay healthy. There is much gambling with injuries, both immediate and long term, and longevity against learning and executing the most demanding, risky, and high scoring elements sooner and more than anybody else.

to clarify, i meant to podium in the new season, as everyones technical is getting higher, Chan's PCS might not be enough... sorry for any confusion, i didn't mean to 'put down' the extreme success he's had prior to his 'break' and in his comeback..

 

[Violet Bliss]

to clarify, i meant to podium in the new season, as everyones technical is getting higher, Chan's PCS might not be enough... sorry for any confusion, i didn't mean to 'put down' the extreme success he's had prior to his 'break' and in his comeback..

He has been on the podium multiple times these two seasons since his comeback, just not Worlds. What most don't know about is the equally amazing mental progress he's made since his very nervous comeback debut. He's still a contender not to be written off, especially when his gets comfortable with his new quads in the programs.

 

[mrrice]

He has been on the podium multiple times these two seasons since his comeback, just not Worlds. What most don't know about is the equally amazing mental progress he's made since his very nervous comeback debut. He's still a contender not to be written off, especially when his gets comfortable with his new quads in the programs.

This is a great comment and one that I completely agree with!!!

 

[Mathman]

Now gather 'round people, wherever you roam,
And admit that the waters around you have grown
And you better start swimmin' or be chilled to the bone,
For the times, they are a-changin'. -- Bob Dylan

For very young skaters like Uno and Jin
There's a slight disconnect 'twixt the body and brain
And their bodies don't know they are feelin' the pain,
But the times, they are a-changin'. -- Patrick Chan

 

[mrrice]

Now gather 'round people, wherever you roam,
And admit that the waters around you have grown
And you better start swimmin' or be chilled to the bone,
For the times, they are a-changin'. -- Bob Dylan

For very young skaters like Uno and Jin
There's a slight disconnect 'twixt the body and brain
And their bodies don't know they are feelin' the pain,
But the times, they are a-changin'. -- Patrick Chan

Clevaaah.....

 

[chuckm]

Alexei had a congenital problem.

Yup. He had a congenitally deformed hip joint and was told that he had to quit competing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Took him almost two years to land 4s with any kind of consistency. 4f is much harder---he thinks he can land it consistently in 9 months? It won't matter anyway. Chan needs clean programs to beat the multiquad guys who can skate clean programs. Adding more jumps he hasn't quite mastered is a sure way to not have clean programs.

This is actually the first season he's actually been regularly attempting the 4S in competition. Unless you're referring to other skaters who took a while to land their 4S with any kind of consistency?

As far as 4F landing consistently in 9 months... Uno, Jin, and Chen are examples of skaters who have been landing difficult quads pretty much right off the bat. Granted, it's much harder for Chan to do that given his age compared to them, but if he wants to win gold, he needs to add greater difficulty.

I think a lot of people were like "Oh, he can't do two quads and two triple axels in a FS." and then Chan proved them wrong. Then they were like "Oh, well, he can't do a 4S, he hasn't even competed with it over the years." and yet Chan proved them wrong with some clean 4S this season. A 4F is incredibly hard (only 2 men have successfully landed it, and only in this past season at that), but seems like Chan loves proving people wrong, and understands that he's not going to rely on the other guys to mess up, especially when the top 4 guys at Worlds cleared 300 points (which he has yet to do). He needs to step things up (if he wants to win), although the risk to his body if he goes for harder quads could compromise him even getting to go to the Olympics, so he needs to be careful.

He's on the right track. 295 at Worlds isn't bad (just 0.11 shy of his personal best). Skated a clean SP at Worlds to finally clear 100 points, skated over 200 points at 4CC a year ago in his comeback season. It's pretty impressive that he's hanging with the other guys, even though his difficulty isn't matching them.

 

[chuckm]

Two years to land 4S with any kind of consistency? Patrick has taken a very careful approach to regain and improve on his technical difficulty since his comeback last season and the progress has been amazing. He started out with one quad and one 3A in his LP and by 4CC he landed two quads and two 3A beautifully even though Worlds 2016 was a mess. He started this season with two quads and two 3A but started including 4S in his LP at Skate Canada, and by the Canadian Nationals and Worlds he was landing text book 4S in a three quad two 3A LP. Not bad for an old guy, eh?

If and when Chan adds a quad to his program, it is always a carefully thought out process. There wouldn't be great sacrifice of program components that he values but as his fan I would advocate for him to add difficulty safely even with a small degree of reducing the not so essential program components. These days PCS comes with quads anyway. Patrick has most likely another year of competition to go and there wouldn't be years of multiple quad practices and performances after that. So if he can do it safely and not incur injury next season, I say go ahead to show us a beautiful 4F his fans have been hoping for and the rest what he at 26 can add and do that would put most young skaters to shame. Then he will still have years of artistic performances to bring us. As fans, we are very happy and supportive that he is careful with his health and also about his ability to balance technical difficulty with artistry.



Chan has been on the podium regularly since his comeback. However, winning medals is no longer the top priority with him and his fans.

If "winning medals is no longer the top priority with him", then why is he planning on adding 4F to his repertoire? He could easily injure himself while trying to practice this jump. The few men who are doing this jump (Jin, Chen and Uno) have done 4z as well, and they are all quite young (19, 17, 19). It is much easier to acquire new technical skills in the teen years than the late twenties.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If "winning medals is no longer the top priority with him", then why is he planning on adding 4F to his repertoire? He could easily injure himself while trying to practice this jump. The few men who are doing this jump (Jin, Chen and Uno) have done 4z as well, and they are all quite young (19, 17, 19). It is much easier to acquire new technical skills in the teen years than the late twenties.

I dunno. Chan could have easily injured himself learning the 4S which he hadn't regularly competed up until this season.

And older skaters try hard elements all the time. Why did Carolina Kostner add 3F+3T in Sochi? Why did Mao Asada continue to attempt the 3A? Why did Kavaguti/Duhamel/Savchenko attempt quad/3A throws when they're 30+?

Also, Jin isn't doing 4F (or at least he hasn't attempted one in competition, yet).

And Chan has repeatedly said that winning medals isn't a top priority for him. Nor should it be, trying to keep up with skaters a decade younger than him. The fact that he's still winning medals (including a win this season over the eventual World champion) is impressive, but the important thing is that he's bring a level of interest and sophistication to his skating that he hasn't previously done, while challenging himself technically.

Very very rarely do you see a skater performing at their very best, including getting personal bests and the like, in the twilight of their careers. It's particularly rare in men where the competition has amped up so much technically.

 

[Violet Bliss]

As far as 4F landing consistently in 9 months... Uno, Jin, and Chen are examples of skaters who have been landing difficult quads pretty much right off the bat. Granted, it's much harder for Chan to do that given his age compared to them, but if he wants to win gold, he needs to add greater difficulty.

Chan has been very successful with quads he wished to learn, whether at 19 or 26. I think age is only making him more cautious rather than limiting his ability to learn new skills. His disadvantage compared to many top quadsters is the body type. He is not ultra slim with narrow hips to facilitate fast rotations. He depends more on techniques and rhythm to take off, rotate, and land those jumps, which he does with great quality.

A scientist described the body required for a quintuple:

James Richards, a biomechanist at the University of Delaware who studies the mechanics of figure-skating jumps, does not think a quintuple is feasible for the human body. To stay in the air long enough and spin fast enough to achieve five spins would require a skater to be extremely strong and extremely lean, Richards said.

"The quad is the physical limit," Richards told Live Science. "To do a quint, we would have to have somebody built like a pencil, and they can't get much smaller than they already are."

Supposedly some young skaters are working on a quint. If ever anybody succeeds, it would be a perfect combination of body type, techniques and all things timed just right in training.

 

[mcq]

I dunno. Chan could have easily injured himself learning the 4S which he hadn't regularly competed up until this season.

And older skaters try hard elements all the time. Why did Carolina Kostner add 3F+3T in Sochi? Why did Mao Asada continue to attempt the 3A? Why did Kavaguti/Duhamel/Savchenko attempt quad/3A throws when they're 30+?

Also, Jin isn't doing 4F (or at least he hasn't attempted one in competition, yet).

And Chan has repeatedly said that winning medals isn't a top priority for him. Nor should it be, trying to keep up with skaters a decade younger than him. The fact that he's still winning medals (including a win this season over the eventual World champion) is impressive, but the important thing is that he's bring a level of interest and sophistication to his skating that he hasn't previously done, while challenging himself technically.

Very very rarely do you see a skater performing at their very best, including getting personal bests and the like, in the twilight of their careers. It's particularly rare in men where the competition has amped up so much technically.

Carolina has done 3F3T in her SP since 2005 worlds. She even did 3F3T2Lo that time in the FS too (and landed them). She just watered down her technical onwards, maybe due to her inconsistency problems etc. But she did not just add the 3F3T in Sochi. It is the same with Mao, she has been doing 3A and 3-3 since her junior years, so their situation is a bit different than Chan who debut new jumps in his program later in his career.

 

[Violet Bliss]

If "winning medals is no longer the top priority with him", then why is he planning on adding 4F to his repertoire? He could easily injure himself while trying to practice this jump. The few men who are doing this jump (Jin, Chen and Uno) have done 4z as well, and they are all quite young (19, 17, 19). It is much easier to acquire new technical skills in the teen years than the late twenties.

Maybe he wants to do it because he can? Athletes of Chan's calibre are always challenging themselves to be better at their sports, to see and push their limits. Chan has been doing that all the time. It's just that when it's not about quads, the effort is not recognized or acknowledged.

Something not as a top priority does not necessarily mean it is not desired or something to be dismissed. It can be something to strive for or just welcomed if it comes to you. It just means it's not the sole or main reason to do what you do and it's so important that you would be devastated without it. There are other more important factors and goals to keep you going, content, and motivated.

I think CSG and my earlier post have addressed other aspects of your question/argument.

 

[Crossover]

His concern can be more effectively expressed by one of the pioneering and early quadsters such as Browning, Plushenko or Stojko, some of which advocated the importance of quads in men's field.

 

[mcq]

His concern can be more effectively expressed by one of the pioneering and early quadsters such as Browning, Plushenko or Stojko, some of which advocated the importance of quads in men's field.

Browning has said he completely disagree with limiting quads on CBC podcast and that you can't limit human's evolution and progress.

Stojko is actually the one who advise Patrick to put the 4S, he said it in this article --> here and I quote his statement here

"I think it's awesome," said Stojko, who was working in Mississauga as Skate Canada's ambassador. "People say the sport's going too gymnastics. But if you take out the jumps and you limit the guys, then it just becomes a recital. You've got the art form, but you need that athletic side to blend them together. To have a clear-cut winner, you've got to have that technical side."
"Look at hockey. Look at football. Look at all these other sports where they push the body," Stojko said. "People come to watch that excitement. If you take all the quads out, you're going to see a lot of perfect performances, but it's going to end up being boring again."

While Plushenko always celebrate the quad revolution, you can just scroll his instagram posts, he said, "this is men's skating!".

 

[Crossover]

Browning has said he completely disagree with limiting quads on CBC podcast and that you can't limit human's evolution and progress.

Stojko is actually the one who advise Patrick to put the 4S, he said it in this article --> here and I quote his statement here

While Plushenko always celebrate the quad revolution, you can just scroll his instagram posts, he said, "this is men's skating!".

Yes, that's why I think they are the perfect people to advocate limiting numbers of quad execution in a program. I really don't get why Patrick has to be so honest about how he feels in interviews! which almost always have led him into unnecessary troubles. I wish Patrick hires a PR agency for him.

 

[musicfan80]

I also worry about whether the boots/blades are going to be able to catch up with the training of these quads. The technology is going to have to get better in order to: 1) help the body take the amount of impact, and 2) be able to take the quads themselves. We saw at Worlds were Nathan had issues because his boots were getting worn down quicker than most skaters.

I hope equipment issues don't become an issue for Nathan next season - especially if he is going to be doing the reps needed if he wants to attempt another 5-6 quad FS.