Davis & White Comeback: Place Your Bets

[olayolay]

Belbin / Agosto had the same 'powerful fed and media backing' but they never won a World Championship. If D/W were mediocre, what does that say about V/M at the time, who finished 2nd to D/W for the last two years of that quadrennial?

Belbin/Agosto were even worse and won an OSM and multiple world medals. There's your 'powerful fed and media backing'.

It says that V/M were never scored adequately for their far superior skating skills while D/W got to be mediocre and still be rewarded for it.

 

[anyanka]

I love them but they went undefeated for two seasons heading into Sochi. They stopped at OGM. What's the point of continuing? Nothing left to prove for this fabulous team.

 

[chuckm]

Belbin/Agosto were even worse and won an OSM and multiple world medals. There's your 'powerful fed and media backing'.

It says that V/M were never scored adequately for their far superior skating skills while D/W got to be mediocre and still be rewarded for it.

YOUR opinion. The judges said otherwise, and their opinions count for a great deal more than yours.

 

[olayolay]

YOUR opinion. The judges said otherwise, and their opinions count for a great deal more than yours.

Mmmm nah, skating skills are also objective, verifiable fact.

Yea the judges are always right......... that's why places like GS have hundreds of thousands of messages, all praising the judges' incredible foresight and agreeing with every decision they make.

 

[katha]

The most annoying thing about the D/W and V/M era was the stans of both teams poisoning every thread, so D/W not coming back at least takes care of that hassle. Though now you have the P/C vs. V/M lunacy, and is that so much better....Oh well. I always thought V/M were the more naturally gifted, but D/W had a sharpness and dynamism to their skating that made them more attractive for me. Also, they weren't such a good vessel for Zoueva's patented kitschy "twu wuv" "young love" programs like V/M were, so that they were more into dramatic programs protected them from the worst of her schmaltzy excesses. And they were so drilled on all that technique, it was ridiculous. And they must have had a big hand in figuring that out for themselves, because all the other Marina teams struggled to some degree with levels after the split with Igor. Very impressive.

I don't think there's a chance in hell they're coming back. They have to keep things vague to keep interest for their current endeavors, but everyone knows the deal. They've won everything and comebacks are notoriously hard. The only regret I personally as a fan might have is that they might have pushed the envelope more on an artistic level, just as they did the technical side. But that wasn't happening in Canton. It's not happening in Montreal either IMO, V/M came back brilliant, but it's not like their programs this season are some grand revelation either. For all the snark about ice dance before the great US/Canadian takeover, at least there was a willingness to try something diferent. The Duchesnays, of course, but also U/Z and their concept programs or Klimova/Ponomarenko in 91 and 92. Later on, Grishuk/Platov doing Feeling Begins or Memorial Requiem. A/P's Carmina Burana. Denkova/Staviski, Delobel/Schoenfelder. Not everything worked, some of it ended with trainwrecks, but at least there was the attempt to do things that strayed away from generic and mainstream. I think that impulse has all but died now in ice dancing, everyone is scared of taking risks and it makes me sad.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

To me, the late 90s to early 2000s with all those dramatic programs were the generic and mainstream at the time. That said, we really did have a lot more variety back then. We will never get the total freedom that we had prior to the ice dance rule changes after 1992 that made ice dance more ballroom oriented.

 

[katha]

To me, the late 90s to early 2000s with all those dramatic programs were the generic and mainstream at the time. That said, we really did have a lot more variety back then. We will never get the total freedom that we had prior to the ice dance rule changes after 1992 that made ice dance more ballroom oriented.

LOL, yeah, absolutely, all those Vanessa Mae programs or some popular classic with techno beat wasn't exactly the height of avantgarde either. Now it's mostly ballroom (but only a certain kind of ballroom...) or some form of tinkly soft flowy stuff. And I don't think that's in any way, shape or form in better taste than the grandiose drama that went on before. But I do think that when you look at those years, there's more variety. Now everyone is scared about doing something in "bad taste" and IMO it's hurting the discipline.

 

[andromache]

The most annoying thing about the D/W and V/M era was the stans of both teams poisoning every thread, so D/W not coming back at least takes care of that hassle. Though now you have the P/C vs. V/M lunacy, and is that so much better....Oh well. I always thought V/M were the more naturally gifted, but D/W had a sharpness and dynamism to their skating that made them more attractive for me. Also, they weren't such a good vessel for Zoueva's patented kitschy "twu wuv" "young love" programs like V/M were, so that they were more into dramatic programs protected them from the worst of her schmaltzy excesses. And they were so drilled on all that technique, it was ridiculous. And they must have had a big hand in figuring that out for themselves, because all the other Marina teams struggled to some degree with levels after the split with Igor. Very impressive.

I agree with literally all of this. I'm finding V/M's programs much more compelling now that they've left Marina. There's much less sentimentalism, IMO. And I agree that, generally, I thought D/W had far better FD material than V/M most years (sans Mahler and Carmen). You described them as sharp and dynamic, and I think that's what made their best performances and programs so great. Scheherazade certainly was.

On an artistic level, I think Meryl's off-ice dancing would've really helped her be more successful at being soft on ice, or being sexy, and overall just being better at projecting emotion, so that would've been a way for her and Charlie to really show more growth, with or without Marina.

FWIW, I think C/B have the riskiest FD this season (probably the riskiest FD of the past two years, at least) and they haven't been rewarded for it. Boo.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

LOL, yeah, absolutely, all those Vanessa Mae programs or some popular classic with techno beat wasn't exactly the height of avantgarde either. Now it's mostly ballroom (but only a certain kind of ballroom...) or some form of tinkly soft flowy stuff. And I don't think that's in any way, shape or form in better taste than the grandiose drama that went on before. But I do think that when you look at those years, there's more variety. Now everyone is scared about doing something in "bad taste" and IMO it's hurting the discipline.

I blame Linichuk and the programs she gave B/A and DomShabs back in Vancouver. I think that scared all the North American teams from going the "Russian" ever again. Heck, it even scared the Russian teams, (I remember seeing Ilinkyh/Katsalapov and Bobrova/Soloviev for the first time at 2013 Worlds after a long while...I took a semi-break from skating after Vancouver and didn't follow the season obsessively...and I was shocked at how classy and normal their whole packaging was for being Russians). What we need is a team to come up with something really off-the-wall with weird costumes and make up again and the judges should respond to it. If other teams see that the judges like that sort of thing, then we'll see almost everyone trying that. I also think we used to see more coaches and camps being represented by the top teams. I mean sure we had Natalia Dubova who had a hand in all three Russian teams in 1992, but I found that almost every team in the top 6 or so were represented by a different camp. Now the entire field is all Detroit and Marie-France with maybe a Zhulin and a less well-known coaching team popping up once or twice.

It's funny. Davis/White were pretty distinctive to me...but in a way that wasn't really dance-friendly. They really put their athleticism and dynamic execution of the elements on display. I honestly don't like any of their programs after Vancouver (I only liked 1/2 of their Vancouver programs and that's only like not love) nor do I think they really danced. My favorite version of their Scheherezade FD was when someone dubbed Beyonce's "Drunk in Love" over it. I also found their musical interpretation to only have two speeds with very little depth or nuance. But I guess they stood out.

 

[olayolay]

P/C, V/M or the Shibs in any order on a podium is good enough for me. Personal preferences vary, but it is undeniable all three have fabulous skating skills and actual dance qualities.

 

[mrrice]

Davis and White were mediocre. I alway felt if they weren't American with a powerful fed and media backing, they wouldn't have been half as successful.

Is this a joke???? Come on now.....Unless you're 12, you can certainly remember a time when most people thought US Ice Dancers were the weakest of all the dancers in the event. Exactly how many Olympic Gold Medals does the US have in the 11 Olympic Games since Ice Dance was added in 1976??............:think:...........:scratch3:......................Oh Yeah.....1 :disapp: Russia/Soviet Union............7

The US had zero respect from the international judges before Marina Came along...

Trust me when I say that there were a couple of times when I thought Tanith and Ben were robbed!! That's why the US owes Marina Zoueva a HUUUUUGGGGEEEE Muffin Basket. IMO Opinion, She is the person responsible for getting the judges to take our dancers more seriously.

 

[Mrs. P]

FWIW, I think C/B have the riskiest FD this season (probably the riskiest FD of the past two years, at least) and they haven't been rewarded for it. Boo.

This is probably worth a thread of its own, but I've seen this sentiment shared by posters several times, which begs the question for me whether they're not being rewarded for it because it's different or rather they're not executing it well, a product of perhaps the fact it's different/risky. This is two different things to me and I feel that nobody has made the distinction.

There's also the de gustibus factor. Would the judges from a different season, maybe in the pre-1992 season, see it differently and perhaps appreciate it more.

 

[andromache]

Is this joke???? Come on now.....Unless you're 12, you can certainly remember a time when most people thought US Ice Dancers were the weakest of all the dancers in the event. Exactly how many Olympic Gold Medals does the US have since Ice Dance was added in 1976??.................:think:...........:scratch3:......................Oh Yeah.....1 :disapp:

While I in no way agree with the bitter and nasty sentiment of the original post, and I 100% agree with your statement regarding the US federation and ice dance laugh, I feel it's important to acknowledge the role that a well-connected coach plays in terms of supporting an ice dance team. IMO, when it comes to US ice dance, there's no question (in my mind) that all politicking is done by the coaches, not the fed. This is probably true of US skating in general; USFS probably promotes/politicks for the ladies and leaves everyone else to their own devices.

 

[Mrs. P]

It's funny. Davis/White were pretty distinctive to me...but in a way that wasn't really dance-friendly. They really put their athleticism and dynamic execution of the elements on display. I honestly don't like any of their programs after Vancouver (I only liked 1/2 of their Vancouver programs and that's only like not love) nor do I think they really danced. My favorite version of their Scheherezade FD was when someone dubbed Beyonce's "Drunk in Love" over it. I also found their musical interpretation to only have two speeds with very little depth or nuance. But I guess they stood out.

For me I think this is why I feel perhaps there is less of an uber-conflict with Virtue/Moirv. Papdakis/Cizeron (and the Shibs) then when it was V/M -D/W.

The approaches to dance by the top two leading up to Sochi were in stark contrast so as a result the factions for each were really strong. I think unless you were pretty dance style agnostic (i.e. you could find value in different styles or did not feel strongly about a certain style), it was natural to be drawn to one or the other. Also, I remember that the Shibutanis were often used to throw shade at Davis and White in the 2010-2014 quad.

Probably Chock and Bates (and Bobrova/Soloviev) could be that Davis-White style team that is a contrast to the top 3, but again execution sort of keeps that from happening, IMO.

 

[mrrice]

While I in no way agree with the bitter and nasty sentiment of the original post, and I 100% agree with your statement regarding the US federation and ice dance laugh, I feel it's important to acknowledge the role that a well-connected coach plays in terms of supporting an ice dance team. IMO, when it comes to US ice dance, there's no question (in my mind) that all politicking is done by the coaches, not the fed. This is probably true of US skating in general; USFS probably promotes/politicks for the ladies and leaves everyone else to their own devices.

100% Correct!!! I'd like to add that this is not limited to skating. As a LONG time dancer, coach, and judge of Jazz Dancing, I have either danced with, or coached, at half of the judges that judged my students. Trust me, they knew that if my dancers didn't score well, that they needed to explain why. They couldn't hand me the basic line of, "Well, I thought the other team was better" and then just walk away......I'd quickly ask, "Why?" If they couldn't tell me, and sometimes I'd hear..."I just did" It would really bother me. Believe me, Judges talk amongst themselves and what happened with pairs in 2002, happens all the time in Dance. Half way through some events, the head judge will come down the line and tell us "Your numbers are too low or high, and they want to see a change in the next division of dancers. That's why you'll an entire flight score in the 60's and then, like magic, all the numbers will suddenly jump, or fall in the next flight.....

 

[katha]

Politiking by federations has always been a strong factor in ice dance, but agree that it doesn't seem like the US fed in particular has had much of a clue how to operate there. Shpilband knows how to do it, Zoueva knows how to do it, when they were working together they were also a politiking power house, now it's more diluted but still present for both camps.

And no, there's not really much in a powerful style around in ice dancing now. C/B go in that direction and I like them, but they're not at a level like Davis/White or Grishuk/Platov obviously. I became a fan of ice dance through G/P and their raw power and aggression always appealed to me and I'll always have a soft spot for dancers going that way style-wise. Memorial Requiem, with that insistent monotone beat hammering away for four minutes, yet G/P keeping up with it, giving it structure and shape with their skating, there's a skill present in performing that way that's not ever been matched since IMO. And they were brilliant technicians and COP skaters years before COP was developed.

 

[mrrice]

Katha^^^ Correct. Think about this. It is certainly not beyond reason to think that Meryl, Charlie, Tessa, or Scott could be sitting on a Tech or PCS panel before Marina retires....It could be a scandal in the making should Tessa have a Canadian Team win and Meryl have a US Team win. Especially if they were BOTH coached by Marina. Some people call it Politics, I personally call it Preference but, there's no avoiding it. Give me Maria B. over Irina S. 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Give me Maria B. 17 moments in spring. :luv17:

 

[mrrice]

Give me Maria B. 17 moments in spring. :luv17:

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.......................................That made my night!!