Domestic scoring in Russia

[icewhite]

I am talking about the many comments here that, e.g. Gubanova deserves higher PCS than xy because she "rotated all her jumps fully" etc. - arguments that not only do I not agree with - I am not seeing the basis for this in the bullet points of the PCS.

Also there is for instance no bullet point for literally taken storytelling - yet I have now seen that being brought up by several posters as something negative if a skater doesn't do / positive if a skater does it: ~ "but now it is only lyrical interpretation of the music".

Then of course jumping difficult elements is a huge factor outside of Russia as well. Big jumps influence PCS massively. Still, I have yet, in the aftermath of the '22 Olympics, which seems to me to value "artistic" skaters a bit more than before, to see internationally something like Samarin getting high 9s, Gumennik getting called underscored with PCS of 9s, and Dikidhzi with an absolutely bland program, visible struggles in his very slow step sequence (you can see how hard he's trying to keep his balance throughout the program, there is no commitment to the music at all, no engagement with the audience at all, just concentration not to fall) getting 8.50s, 8.75s because he skates programs with 3 quads clean, and everyone being totally fine with that.
They don't even have the most outstanding jump content - but they do have good content and when they are able to jump it, it seems to deserve high PCS. If they then even entertain the crowd, like Samarin, or show commitment to the music, like Gumennik, that is enough for (high) 9s. For me that shows a focus on technical content in a way I don't see it internationally, not just the scoring, but also in the way people talk about it.

Yes, Frolova won her stage, iirc, with only 3-3. Like I said I like her, she has other qualities than "ultra c"s, but she won her stage in which I think nobody even jumped a quad or 3A, so I don't know how she's brought as an argument that Russians value other things but ultra c.

I almost never see the Russian posters speak about deep edges or such. Such points are absolutely irrelevant to them, it seems. And I see that reflected in the Russian scores. Sure there are many non Russians who don't value such either, but the complete absence of any such aspects in the "Russian speaking" discussions, or if it's discussed, in a marginalizing way, is remarkable.

In my eyes there is a rift.

 

[Mathman]

I think that a lot depends on what you've got. Russian fans and supporters once were all about exquisite artistry -- for instance when Gordeeva and Grinkov were leading the way. "Of course no other country can do it -- other countries don't have the tradition of the Bolshoi Ballet!"

American fans suddenly became a lot more interested in quads when it was Nathan Chen who was doing five per program. Nor did they mind the concomitant rise in his component scores, whatever the bullet points may say.

 

[4everchan]

whole post

In my eyes there is a rift.

I agree with what you are saying. It's like as if the scoring remained in 6.0.
If the technical content is wow... they get a good TES mark... and then, if there is something crowd pleasing or if they skate clean, they get very close to perfection in PCS, no matter the skating skills.

I am with you also about story telling. It's not part of the sport per se. It's not mandatory. If it's there and it's well done (piper and paul for instance) then great.... but a team skating to the musical line and emotion without a story should be rewarded just as well.

Don't get me started on those who cannot skate a step sequence to save their lives and get high 8s in skating skills and even presentation.

So yes, there are different schools of thought about this. French CBC commentator has talked a lot about the topic prior to 2022 games. He was warning the casual fans that there was a huge revolution in content, especially with Russian women skating. He mentioned that in Canada, skating skills were the focus in the early stages, not the jumps and not to expect another Kaetlyn Osmond kind of success for quite a while because our young women, the ones already in juniors had not pushed the technical content early enough compared to Russian women but also Japanese and Korean women. He mentioned that there was a completely different approach to skating (a lot more use of the calves versus the thighs) that is just starting to be taught to the younger Canadian girls. So in ten years or so, our Canadian athletes, the babies who are starting right now, would probably be on par with the others but not before then, and not with the current athletes. At the same time, the 3-3 combo revolution we saw about ten years ago has finally arrived to Canada. Most of our top junior women have a 3-3 now.

So for Canadian skaters, judges and even fans, there was a different style of skating versus in some other parts of the world. I think that's why I also appreciate Japanese skaters as well as some skaters from everywhere in the world with good basic skating rather than jumpers. It's culture but not nationalistic, rather athletic culture. In the end, it's great to see a variety of styles as they can mutually influence one another. But indeed, the judging can get messy.

 

[readernick]

I think it's just about going with what has worked for you in the past. Russia has had a lot of very successful beautiful pairs skaters. I still see that pairs in Russia are judged more on their artistry than purely their technical skills and many Russian pairs skaters have good SS. The reigning Olympic silver medalist are the gold standard in SS for pairs.

OTOH, in recent history, the successful Russian singles skaters haven't been particularly artistic. They won through technical content. This might still work for them in women's skating because the senior field is still not combining the technical and artistic that well. But, it's not going to work well against Shoma, Adam, and Yuma. So, it would be wise to rethink this approach. But, change takes time.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I think that a lot depends on what you've got. Russian fans and supporters once were all about exquisite artistry -- for instance when Gordeeva and Grinkov were leading the way. "Of course no other country can do it -- other countries don't have the tradition of the Bolshoi Ballet!"

American fans suddenly became a lot more interested in quads when it was Nathan Chen who was doing five per program. Nor did they mind the concomitant rise in his component scores, whatever the bullet points may say.

It must be taken into account that for many years now (in fact, since the time of Plushenko), the main problem of Russian men has been, first of all, the small number or insufficient stability of quads. No matter how good Kolyada was at skating, he went to every international competition in order to lose. He had no chance against Nathan Chen, Yuzuru Hanyu and many other skaters. And every time a skater appeared capable of demonstrating at least 4 quads in a free, both fans and sports officials in Russia began to look at him with hope. And this is quite natural - most people try to solve the main problem first, and then move on to the details. That's what this so-called "split" is all about. Yes, Samarin, for example, is (to put it mildly) not a standard of artistry. But what difference does it make if his content is still not competitive enough compared to the best American or Japanese skaters? In any case, he will lose to them, even if he sharply improves his artistry.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

OTOH, in recent history, the successful Russian singles skaters haven't been particularly artistic. They won through technical content. This might still work for them in women's skating because the senior field is still not combining the technical and artistic that well. But, it's not going to work well against Shoma, Adam, and Yuma. So, it would be wise to rethink this approach. But, change takes time.

The success of Russian singles skaters over the past 10 years is the success of women. Are you saying they had no artistry? This is correct only in relation to Alexandra Trusova. And it was she who was never able to win a single gold medal in senior competitions. In Kostornaya, Shcherbakova, and Valieva, artistry, involvement, musicality and the transfer of emotions were fully present and in harmony with strong technical content. Moreover, Shcherbakova could have done not a single quad in her Olympic program, replacing it with ordinary triple jumps - and she would still have been ahead of figure skaters from all other countries. She only needed the quads to defeat the girls from her own team.

It is in any case impossible to compensate or disguise the obvious and clearly visible technical regress in women's singles skating with soft knees, deep edges and artistry. Kaori Sakamoto may very well become world champion for the third time, but that just shows how bad everyone else is. Combinations 1+3 and chronic under-rotations do not make a performance great, it destroy any artistry. We can only hope for a new generation of skaters who will no longer justify their shortcomings with soft knees.

 

[DancingCactus]

As if the Russian girls had that great tech content. Their "quads" were also underrotated as hell and their landings dubious. Shcherbakova's jumps were dodgy and did you forget about the full-blade assist for her toe jumps? Not to mention her basic skating skills. And so on. Trusova too.

The Russian girls were overscored both in PCS AND TES.

 

[TallyT]

In Kostornaya, Shcherbakova, and Valieva, artistry, involvement, musicality and the transfer of emotions were fully present and in harmony with strong technical content.

A lot of people see artistry where they want to; I disagree that they were 'fully' present, because as art it was immature and often jejune (Shcherbakova's die away airs and expressions, for instance). It was sometimes good but Valieva's was especially overpraised because of her position.

Back to the OP question - I think when and if the Russians are readmitted, it will be difficult but I also think they will have to adjust more than the rest of the world, especially their men.

 

[readernick]

The success of Russian singles skaters over the past 10 years is the success of women. Are you saying they had no artistry? This is correct only in relation to Alexandra Trusova. And it was she who was never able to win a single gold medal in senior competitions. In Kostornaya, Shcherbakova, and Valieva, artistry, involvement, musicality and the transfer of emotions were fully present and in harmony with strong technical content. Moreover, Shcherbakova could have done not a single quad in her Olympic program, replacing it with ordinary triple jumps - and she would still have been ahead of figure skaters from all other countries. She only needed the quads to defeat the girls from her own team.

It is in any case impossible to compensate or disguise the obvious and clearly visible technical regress in women's singles skating with soft knees, deep edges and artistry. Kaori Sakamoto may very well become world champion for the third time, but that just shows how bad everyone else is. Combinations 1+3 and chronic under-rotations do not make a performance great, it destroy any artistry. We can only hope for a new generation of skaters who will no longer justify their shortcomings with soft knees.

Some Russian female skaters have good artistry. But, those weren't the ones winning. The skaters at Eteri's school focus on one thing which is rotating jumps. Some came to her with good basics specifically Aliona and some of the juniors. But, artistry and SS are clearly of far less importance than anything else. A skater never improved basics skating after arriving and the programs were just checking boxes. So, no I don't see any artistry in that. And, good SS aren't a justification. They are the foundation of skating. When you don't have that, nothing else looks good. Anna S. is musical but her basics are so bad that all her programs and her elements refected that. So, no I see no focus on artistry in the Russian winners.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

As if the Russian girls had that great tech content. Their "quads" were also underrotated as hell and their landings dubious. Shcherbakova's jumps were dodgy and did you forget about the full-blade assist for her toe jumps? Not to mention her basic skating skills. And so on. Trusova too.

The Russian girls were overscored both in PCS AND TES.

you know, it’s absolutely enough for me that neither the judges nor the technical controllers share your opinion in any way. All these conversations, which lasted for years, about “pre-rotation”, “ugly jumps”, “cheating jumps”, “edge calls” - all of this was, to call a spade a spade, just hopeless attempts to somehow justify the problems in technique of those skaters who were loved by non Russian fans. This is clearly evident now, when from year to year there is a deterioration in the quality of the most common jumping elements - it’s not worth talking about quads, this simply doesn’t exist yet.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Some Russian female skaters have good artistry. But, those weren't the ones winning. The skaters at Eteri's school focus on one thing which is rotating jumps. Some came to her with good basics specifically Aliona and some of the juniors. But, artistry and SS are clearly of far less importance than anything else. A skater never improved basics skating after arriving and the programs were just checking boxes. So, no I don't see any artistry in that. And, good SS aren't a justification. They are the foundation of skating. When you don't have that, nothing else looks good. Anna S. is musical but her basics are so bad that all her programs and her elements refected that. So, no I see no focus on artistry in the Russian winners.

This is just your subjective opinion. And it is very biased. It’s ridiculous to talk about Shcherbakova’s lack of artistry when the audience literally cried at her performances. In general, I have the impression that those who deny her artistry do not even try to see her program. Instead, they peer intently to the point of mania at the “edges”, at the blades of the skates, that is, they try, in essence, to detect technical flaws. At the same time, the desire to see a mistake simply kills even hints of objectivity in such fans - it’s like self-hypnosis.

Therefore, of course, such fans are ready to recognize the presence of artistry in Russian figure skaters - but only in those who obviously do not claim first place at international competitions. For example, it was very strange for me to read praise for Tuktamysheva’s artistry. She is a good skater, but her PCS is low. She was probably only praised because she could have been beaten by Sakamoto.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Back to the OP question - I think when and if the Russians are readmitted, it will be difficult but I also think they will have to adjust more than the rest of the world, especially their men.

Well, just watch the short program Voila by Adelia Petrosyan (and given her age, she could already perform at the 2023 worlds) and the program Voila by Kimmy Repond. Do you really think that Adelia would have to “adapt to the rest of the world”? I think that the “rest of the world” wouldnt compete with Adelia - neither in technique nor in artistry, because artistry in the entire “rest of the world” is increasingly turning into fear of each next jumping element - and this is the only feeling that is conveyed to the audience . Maybe, there is also pity for the poor fellow. The only way to somehow equalize the chances is through gross arbitrariness of the judges. Just set PCS = 0 and GOE = 0, if the skater is from Russia - this approach will work. As I understand it, a lighter version of this progressive method of judging is now being tested on Gubanova.

As for Russian men, in fact, before the ban, they were not leaders in the world. At best, they will return to the same positions.

 

[readernick]

This is just your subjective opinion. And it is very biased. It’s ridiculous to talk about Shcherbakova’s lack of artistry when the audience literally cried at her performances. In general, I have the impression that those who deny her artistry do not even try to see her program. Instead, they peer intently to the point of mania at the “edges”, at the blades of the skates, that is, they try, in essence, to detect technical flaws. At the same time, the desire to see a mistake simply kills even hints of objectivity in such fans - it’s like self-hypnosis.

Therefore, of course, such fans are ready to recognize the presence of artistry in Russian figure skaters - but only in those who obviously do not claim first place at international competitions. For example, it was very strange for me to read praise for Tuktamysheva’s artistry. She is a good skater, but her PCS is low. She was probably only praised because she could have been beaten by Sakamoto.

No one thinks Tuk is "artistic" she has great jump technique and has good performance quality at times but certainly not great SS or musicality. People like her because she has longevity.

I think skaters like Ksenia Snitsnya have had some great programs and quite nice basics. Frolova is another one who is impressive at times. Sofia Muravieva has good skating skills and musicality.

Anyway your theory doesn't work because everyone loved Aliona and she was beating everyone for a period of time. What was different about her compared to the others from that school? Her basics. SS matter. She managed to make bad programs look good. You may not value that but clearly international audiences do.

Anyway, this isn't the focus of this thread. The OP was saying Russian audiences and judges value different things and interpret (misinterpret) the bullet points differently. I think your answers show that to be true.

 

[TallyT]

It’s ridiculous to talk about Shcherbakova’s lack of artistry when the audience literally cried at her performances.

People have cried for Shirley Temple, ET, Dumbo and Little Nell. Try again.

 

[DancingCactus]

Shcherbakova had "artistry" in her upper body. What was going on with her legs was another matter.

Also, I don't care that the audience was crying. There are also people who cry when they watch soap operas or melodrama.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I almost never see the Russian posters speak about deep edges or such. Such points are absolutely irrelevant to them, it seems. And I see that reflected in the Russian scores. Sure there are many non Russians who don't value such either, but the complete absence of any such aspects in the "Russian speaking" discussions, or if it's discussed, in a marginalizing way, is remarkable.

In my eyes there is a rift.

I value deep edges posture and knee bend, but the fact is - those stuffs are not the only criterion of good skating skills. They are actually only one part of it, especially now when some of 'old' transition mark is translated in today skating skills score. It's the same if i ask why i never see posters value turns, steps, speed, balance, one-foot skating, variety and other 'quantitative' criteria of SS - those are all equal part of the same criteria. Someone will (choose to) demonstrate specific criteria more than the others (because it's simply not possible to have the same flow with more different steps and one foot skating as without it), but all are equally important for the mark we are calling SS... What you are 'suggesting' is that we should judge skaters skating based only on a skaters cross-overs, or only on 'that one something' we choose to recognize. But, for example, when we are talking about Kostornaya SS we would talk about flow and glide, when we are talking about Zagitova SS we would talk about steps and turns and one-foot skating etc etc

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Anyway your theory doesn't work because everyone loved Aliona and she was beating everyone for a period of time. What was different about her compared to the others from that school? Her basics. SS matter. She managed to make bad programs look good. You may not value that but clearly international audiences do.

If you now open the old threads where Kostornaya’s performances during the period of her greatest success were discussed, you will see that not everyone expressed their admiration. For example, you were not there. But there were those who did not consider her the best. Your assessment of Kostornaya today is an assessment after the fact.

And by the way, about the “split with the rest of the world,” the presence of which is supposedly proven by my posts. The same thing - open the threads where Anna Shcherbakova’s performances are discussed. Or in even earlier times - the performances of Zagitova and Medvedeva. You will see that there was a lot of praise, including for artistry, both to Zhenya, and to Alina, and to Anna. And this was not written by Russian users, of whom there have always been few. That is, the “rest of the world” also liked Russian figure skaters. I don’t know where the split is between Russia and the “rest of the world.” The same (and even to a much greater extent) applies to refereeing. In Russia, of course, judges work differently than in other countries, but these differences hardly relate to judging jumps or judging artistry.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Back to

People have cried for Shirley Temple, ET, Dumbo and Little Nell. Try again.

trying to convince you is absolutely pointless, because you are biased. Let me just say that one of the main features of art is that it evokes emotions. And if the creators of the cartoon about Dumbo evoked an emotional response from the audience, then they solved their problem. In order to evoke an emotional response in the audience, Anna has no computers, no special effects, no animation, no big screen, no dialogue, no script - she only has herself, ice and skates. And if she, using these means, evokes a strong emotional response from the audience in 4 minutes, it means she is very artistic.

What does the soft knees you are raising to the absolute level have to do with artistry - by the way, this is a big question. In the old days, athletes had to draw figures on the ice with skates before starting their short and free programs - and during these exercises, gliding and even “soft knees” were perfectly practiced. But there was approximately zero artistry in this.

 

[icewhite]

I value deep edges posture and knee bend, but the fact is - those stuffs are not the only criterion of good skating skills. They are actually only one part of it, especially now when some of 'old' transition mark is translated in today skating skills score. It's the same if i ask why i never see posters value turns, steps, speed, balance, one-foot skating, variety and other 'quantitative' criteria of SS - those are all equal part of the same criteria. Someone will (choose to) demonstrate specific criteria more than the others (because it's simply not possible to have the same flow with more different steps and one foot skating as without it), but all are equally important for the mark we are calling SS... What you are 'suggesting' is that we should judge skaters skating based only on a skaters cross-overs, or only on 'that one something' we choose to recognize. But, for example, when we are talking about Kostornaya SS we would talk about flow and glide, when we are talking about Zagitova SS we would talk about steps and turns and one-foot skating etc etc

Oh I'm surely not someone who doesn't value steps and turns and one foot skating. Look at my avatar man, he is usually someone who works with sharp turns much more than long glides.
That's just not my point.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

So if I'm correct, the gist is that the culture of the country the judge is from will influence how the interpret the IJS? That's probably true. But I don't think that can be changed. Because who's really 'right'? How do you even determine that? And those biases would still be there.


Though perhaps it's actually a good thing? A variety of viewpoints and stuff?