Jump technique discussion

[jkun]

Can I ask some of the experts out there about one jumping technique I always found curious and it used to drive me mad - Elena Liashenko's jumping technique, particularly on the lutz. What was that curious leg raise all about?

I think it was just her way of getting ready. It is not pleasant to look at it. I think something similar is Mao sort of checking her knees (bobbing up and down on them) before her flip entrances--it drives me crazy. It used to be very bad when she was younger. Now it is less distracting as she doesn't do it as badly anymore. See this: https://youtu.be/iOwrOxjLRGE?t=69 if you want to know what I'm talking about.

 

[randomfan]

Yuna has the most assuring 3Lz3T but solo lutz wise, Tuks has the best height, speed and effortless coverage.

Are you talking about ice coverage? I've always thought that even with Tuktamysheva's great height, Yuna and Carolina still had more ice coverage than her on the lutz.

 

[oriquey]

That is the perfect technique. Mishin taught him the perfect technique this is the reason why he can jump after the so many pauses of his career...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AXhDgkKDfw&t=1m9s perfect! 1998 he was 15. ( I like Mr Button's unbiased comentary )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLVaQGV2BI&t=1m38s he was 17 perfect 3A. Listen to the American commentators...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieMEfklmuI&t=1m15s 2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqbQpiriYCU&t=1h14m50s 2010 difficoult outflow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NklNkWET0Y4&t=1m15s 2015 look at that flow!

Plushy's quads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7WXLsJlAiw&t=0m55s Seriously, what is it if that is not perfect technique???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aet6BM14kCU&t=0m20s also... When Plushy does a bad jump then most of skaters would fall...

Many skaters has lovely 3A. My favorites are Oda, Han Yan, Brezina, Hanyu's 3A..


I found it on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvtcifWsiE Best quad Toe Loop jumps compilation

Thanks for the links. These are amazing

 

[Ophelia]

Are you talking about ice coverage? I've always thought that even with Tuktamysheva's great height, Yuna and Carolina still had more ice coverage than her on the lutz.

Agreed. Tukt has the height, but not the ice coverage. Kim has the most ice coverage. She covers 1/3 of the ice rink during her 3-3s.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Agreed. Tukt has the height, but not the ice coverage. Kim has the most ice coverage. She covers 1/3 of the ice rink during her 3-3s.

That's why I'm not someone to get really stuck on height being the most important factor. I look for flow and IMO a jump that's moving east/west [horizontal] is usually better looking than one going north/south [vertical].

*This is an in general statement not geared toward any specific skater.

Wakaba comes to mind as a perfect mix. She doesn't really get amazing height but just carries a very powerful launch and rotation with unbelievable body position in the air. It's just so secure the way she executes them. I think she uses the strength from her core and hips to find such stability if I were to guess. Only thing I'd change on her is that she could start holding out the landings a bit more on a curved edge but that's just a personal preference.

Here are some highlights of her jumps from JWC that I put together.
https://youtu.be/CxHZmtUYbQY

3z-2t-2lo is very cool in my books.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think it was just her way of getting ready. It is not pleasant to look at it. I think something similar is Mao sort of checking her knees (bobbing up and down on them) before her flip entrances--it drives me crazy. It used to be very bad when she was younger. Now it is less distracting as she doesn't do it as badly anymore. See this: https://youtu.be/iOwrOxjLRGE?t=69 if you want to know what I'm talking about.

Mao is stroking the ice into her Flip, what is wrong with that (aside from it being less difficult than a "transition")? She's not just sitting on the edge with her free leg held up across half the rink length...

 

[blargmonster]

Are you talking about ice coverage? I've always thought that even with Tuktamysheva's great height, Yuna and Carolina still had more ice coverage than her on the lutz.

i thought yuna and carolina were considered the fastest too in terms of jumping

 

[jkun]

Mao is stroking the ice into her Flip, what is wrong with that (aside from it being less difficult than a "transition")? She's not just sitting on the edge with her free leg held up across half the rink length...

After the stroking, but before the mohawk turn doesn't she sort of bounce up and down as if she's trying to get ready to jump or making sure she's secure enough to jump? Maybe I'm crazy.........

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well she goes down in her knees a little, some sort of a "check" I guess if you want to look at it like that, but the movement is quite rhythmic and soft to me so I take no issue with it. I would prefer to see that flow and the overall good posture maintained rather than doing a rocker or whatnot for no reason before the jump and looking constipated while doing it.

 

[Interspectator]

That's why I'm not someone to get really stuck on height being the most important factor. I look for flow and IMO a jump that's moving east/west [horizontal] is usually better looking than one going north/south [vertical].

*This is an in general statement not geared toward any specific skater.

Wakaba comes to mind as a perfect mix. She doesn't really get amazing height but just carries a very powerful launch and rotation with unbelievable body position in the air. It's just so secure the way she executes them. I think she uses the strength from her core and hips to find such stability if I were to guess. Only thing I'd change on her is that she could start holding out the landings a bit more on a curved edge but that's just a personal preference.

Here are some highlights of her jumps from JWC that I put together.
https://youtu.be/CxHZmtUYbQY

3z-2t-2lo is very cool in my books.

I agree. Her jumps are clean, controlled and rotated. Good speed in and out. Hopefully she can keep them. Watching Wakaba jump is a pleasure.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I agree. Her jumps are clean, controlled and rotated. Good speed in and out. Hopefully she can keep them. Watching Wakaba jump is a pleasure.

Me thinks in five years time she'll be a standard that people who haven't even begun posting yet will hold as being a benchmark for others to follow especially in reference to jumps.

 

[lyverbird1]

Wow, thanks for posting about this lady. I didn't get to see any coverage of the junior circuit last year and missed Ms. Wakaba so have just acquainted myself with her performance at the GP final and am thinking that those Russian ladies had better keep their game on! I can't see another nation touching the Russians or Japanese in ladies competition for a few years.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well she goes down in her knees a little, some sort of a "check" I guess if you want to look at it like that, but the movement is quite rhythmic and soft to me so I take no issue with it. I would prefer to see that flow and the overall good posture maintained rather than doing a rocker or whatnot for no reason before the jump and looking constipated while doing it.

What do you mean by "no reason"? Points points points

 

[begin]

Hanyan's 3Lo is gorgeous. No squatting and excessive prerotating into the jump and no brick landing--just swoosh and flow

Well she goes down in her knees a little, some sort of a "check" I guess if you want to look at it like that, but the movement is quite rhythmic and soft to me so I take no issue with it. I would prefer to see that flow and the overall good posture maintained rather than doing a rocker or whatnot for no reason before the jump and looking constipated while doing it.

I agree. This is why I prefer Lutz jumps from the 90's with the long glide on the outside-edge. Much nicer to look at than the muscled lutz of today that comes after crammed, poorly executed transitions. That said, I HATED Mao's old flip. She was basically a seesaw w/ her assist leg stretched up and her torso dipping down before hammering into the ice.

 

[Krunchii]

Hanyan's 3Lo is gorgeous. No squatting and excessive prerotating into the jump and no brick landing--just swoosh and flow

Speaking of the 3Lo, this one from Carolina's Ave Maria has always been so memorable to me, fantastic entrance and great flow coming out, nice and big too

 

[begin]

Speaking of the 3Lo, this one from Carolina's Ave Maria has always been so memorable to me, fantastic entrance and great flow coming out, nice and big too

Yes! I'm not a fan of using several three-turns entering the jump but Caro's salchows and loops are great regardless.

Are you talking about ice coverage? I've always thought that even with Tuktamysheva's great height, Yuna and Carolina still had more ice coverage than her on the lutz.

I think their heights are also a factor when you're watching them from a screen. Liza's lutz is especially huge in respect to how tall she but having seen both Yuna and Caro live, I wouldn't say Liza actually goes higher.

 

[Meoima]

I think their heights are also a factor when you're watching them from a screen. Liza's lutz is especially huge in respect to how tall she but having seen both Yuna and Caro live, I wouldn't say Liza actually goes higher.

Well from this: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-Jump-Height&p=1054540&viewfull=1#post1054540

Tuktamysheva, Elizaveta
2014 Grand Prix Final (Barcelona) Free Skate
3Lz (1/3), 18 s: 0.64 s (50 cm)

Kim, Yuna
2014 Olympics (Sochi) Free Skate
3Lz (1/2), 21 s: 0.6 +- 0.04 s (44 +- 6 cm)

Kostner, Carolina
2014 Olympics (Sochi) Free Skate
3Lz, 27 s: 0.64 +- 0.04 s (50 +- 6 cm)

 

[begin]

Well from this: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-Jump-Height&p=1054540&viewfull=1#post1054540

Tuktamysheva, Elizaveta
2014 Grand Prix Final (Barcelona) Free Skate
3Lz (1/3), 18 s: 0.64 s (50 cm)

Kim, Yuna
2014 Olympics (Sochi) Free Skate
3Lz (1/2), 21 s: 0.6 +- 0.04 s (44 +- 6 cm)

Kostner, Carolina
2014 Olympics (Sochi) Free Skate
3Lz, 27 s: 0.64 +- 0.04 s (50 +- 6 cm)

That would be cherry-picked data in this context. For one thing, I saw them back in 2008/2009 and again in London. Caro I will concede but young Yuna, at least, was jumping higher at 17 than 22 (and certainly higher than in her Sochi FS).

 

[Meoima]

That would be cherry-picked data in this context. For one thing, I saw them back in 2008/2009 and again in London. Caro I will concede but young Yuna, at least, was jumping higher at 17 than 22 (and certainly higher than in her Sochi FS).

I think it's reasonable as Yuna at 17-19 was at her peak. But we need data about their jumps by that time.

As for now I believe in the data from Sochi onward provided by Vanshilar.

 

[Tutto]

One thing I think is part of good and bad technique is the use of arms. For example, one coach made me notice how Liza jumps. Her body is like a Block, rotating all together. She uses her arms the minimum she needs but its not how she create the rotation, its particularly noticeable in her axel.
It contributes to great technique with control.

That is probably due to a special device Mr Mishin invented: a vest (adjustable to each skater) which gives a buzzing sound when a skater's arm position is not correct during a jump. (Pavlov's dog comes to mind!)