Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[cjsk8fan]

I haven't read most of this thread for one reason: it was set up to bash Nathan Chen.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Thanks for that. Please read the part where I said I would have given in +2.


Lol @ "the new rules" helping Nathan. I bet they would have loved for his 3A combo to be Zayaked and give Hanyu the win. No bias against Nathan, whatsoever. :sarcasm:

 

[Altie]

Thanks for that. Please read the part where I said I would have given in +2.

Would you mind doing the same GOE bullet analysis/critique for Hanyu's FS jumps?

And here we have the proof you don't read posts entirely since the same analysis for Yuzuru is in the same post ...

 

[YesWay]

Also feel free to tell me why his 2S+1L combo was given mostly 0 GOE (and wasn't marked 2S+1L<<

If the TECH PANEL don't call an underrotation, then there is no automatic GoE penalty, and the JUDGES do not reduce GoE for something that "officially" didn't happen. Simple. You answered the question yourself.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And here we have the proof you don't read posts entirely since the same analysis for Yuzuru is in the same post ...

I just edited it after clicking through to the link. I was referring to your post on here.

 

[Altie]

I just edited it after clicking through to the link. I was referring to your post on here.

Well, it is in my post too...

And it's interesting to see the way you edited your post. Just sayin'.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If the TECH PANEL didn't call an underrotation, then the JUDGES do not penalise GoE. Simple. You answered the question yourself.

It was an error. He doubled a quad (with a form break) and landed the 1L on the wrong foot! The tech specialist also doesn't call two foots and stepouts - the judges have to use their eyes and see the error made on the landing/combo of which there obviously were two errors. Landing a jump on the wrong foot is a mandatory GOE reduction, and the form break on the 2S is also a deduction. So, unless they were going to give that 2S+half loop combination +3s, there's no business in them giving a GOE of 0 or 1.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

-good height/distance
-good flow
- good extension on the landing
- effortless throughout from entry to exit
- matched the musical structure

It definitely deserves a +2 (it was a textbook combination)... and while +3 is generous,he's not the first skater to get +3s for a perfect jump that lacks transitions and had no tano/varied air position.

Speaking of which, since I answered one of yours, what GOE bullets would you say Hanyu hit on his solo 4T in his 4CC LP such that he earned +2s and +3s?

Also feel free to tell me why his 2S+1L combo was given mostly 0 GOE (and wasn't marked 2S+1L<< -- I mean, he finished the combo on the wrong foot!) for what was an obvious error, including +1.

One more FYI - as outrageous as it is for me to say - there are skaters *other* than Hanyu who are allowed to receive +2/+3 on their jumping passes. :sarcasm:

You still didn't answer the first and way more important part of that post - and as long as you don't, I'm just going to assume you're stuck with interpreting a narrative into peoples posts that isn't there to devalue actual arguments, because that's apparently the only way you can argue with people.

Lol, you're giving Nathan all those bullet points for his 4Lz3T (really, what is good extension on the landing to you?) and then don't agree with the GOE on Yuzu's 4T? :roll9: Eh, for starters, I'd give Yuzu all the bullet points you'd give to Nathans 4Lz3T (under the assumption Nathan did deserve those points). Yuzu's 4T was actually not telegraphed either but coming out of steps (one bullet point more) and he has better flow/speed coming out of it. I don't think it should have gotten +3's at all, but I seem to have a way stricter view about this than you do in general.

Regarding all the bullet points:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

IMO, Nathan has no 'good extension on the landing' at all - this is for example good extension, not just the fact that your free leg didn't hit the ice (to be fair, rarely any man has good extension coming out of their combinations - but then nobody gets that bullet point, easy as that). And 'good flow' looks very questionable to me, given that he didn't have much speed in between the jumps or coming out of the 3T (again, a quite common problem with jump combinations and quad combinations in general, but if nobody hits it, nobody hits it). 4 and 8 make sense, which is a +1, which is what I think that combination should have gotten.
Regarding Yuzu's 4T, I'd definitely give him 2, 4 and 8. Arguably 6 - there's a lot of ice flying on the landing and his free leg is far from ideal, but he still has really good speed/flow coming out. Overall, I'd place it between a +1 and +2, which is pretty close to what happened. Seeing them next to each other, I really don't get why Nathan ended up with higher GOE for his combo :confused2:

And to highlight this again:
"One more FYI - as outrageous as it is for me to say - there are skaters *other* than Hanyu who are allowed to receive +2/+3 on their jumping passes."
So you're still just trying to say I'm just being biased about this to try to shut me up/get me to agree with you/discredit what I say? This really is the only thing you can do I guess. Sadly, some people are just lame like that.

 

[andromache]

Well, it is in my post too...

And it's interesting to see the way you edited your post. Just sayin'.

I'm not any side here, but picking on people for editing their posts or having some confusion when reading long posts is really not cool. Lots of people multi-task while browsing/posting on the forums and other use mobile. It's easy to miss things. Being smug about it when someone makes a mistake like that doesn't help you win your argument.

 

[Lambari]

(...)

Unnecessary.

__________________

Deleted by the user so I might as well just delete it too.

 

[YesWay]

It was an error. He doubled a quad (with a form break) and landed the 1L on the wrong foot! The tech specialist also doesn't call two foots and stepouts - the judges have to use their eyes and see the error made on the landing/combo of which there obviously were two errors. Landing a jump on the wrong foot is a mandatory GOE reduction, and the form break on the 2S is also a deduction. So, unless they were going to give that 2S+half loop combination +3s, there's no business in them giving a GOE of 0 or 1.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

You don't actually know what a half loop is?

He landed on the CORRECT edge and foot.
He landed on the edge and foot you use to take off on a salchow or flip.
(That's the whole point of doing a half loop in a combination)
No mistake = no GoE penalty.

Reference

A related jump in figure skating is the half loop. In spite of its name, it is a full rotation jump. It differs from a regular loop jump in that it is landed on the opposite foot, on a backward inside edge. Half loops are only done as single jumps and are primarily used as connecting elements in a jump sequence, before a salchow jump or flip jump which take off from a back inside edge.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Looking at that link, that poster very blatantly scrutinizes anything about Chen's and automatically gives bullets like "recognizable free skating steps"/ "great height/distance"/"effortless throughout" to every one of Hanyu's passes when things like the 4T were not effortless and the 4S was a bit forward. And says things like Chen's 3Z having flow and being effortless is "debatable"?! Give me a break. They are clearly in the camp of Hanyu can do no wrong while nitpicking Chen. "Some sort of spread eagle" preceding Chen's first quad toe and claim it's not immediately preceding (wth?!)... Meanwhile they give 2) bullet to Hanyu's solo 4T which is pretty much stroking into it with a simple Mohawk or two.

They say a step out on Nathan's 3A is a -3, and say Hanyu's popped/half loop combo should be given 0 GOE ("a pop [with his leg breaking form] *might* be considered bad air position") and doesn't incorporate the fact the loop was landed on the wrong foot. LOL

You'd almost think this "dearly beloved" fan doesn't apply the same level of critique to Hanyu as they do to others - especially someone who beats Hanyu. I am thoroughly surprised and shocked. :sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

You don't actually know what a half loop is?

He landed on the CORRECT edge and foot.
He landed on the edge and foot you use to take off on a salchow or flip.
(That's the whole point of doing a half loop in a combination)
No mistake = no GoE penalty.

Reference

A half loop is only considered a loop when it is in combination with a salchow or flip after it. Otherwise you're basically saying a 2S+half loop and 2S+single loop are to be assessed the same. That link itself says it right there - it is considered a loop when used as a connecting jump - if there is no salchow or flip attempt immediately after, how is it a connection?

It's mind boggling that people are trying to justify that botched combo as having 0 or +1 GOE -- let me guess, it matched the musical structure and was effortless throughout -- oh and he landed on the opposite foot, so that definitely means he should get a creative exit bullet!

 

[Pamigena]

So you're still just trying to say I'm just being biased about this to try to shut me up/get me to agree with you/discredit what I say? This really is the only thing you can do I guess.

But you have to admit that this is probably the best imitation of a one-trick pony with four broken legs that you will ever see in your life.

 

[Mathman]

Wrong!

There are certain overlaps in some aspects of skating which they each evaluate - and a skater who is capable of earning high TES is often also capable of earning high PCS... but that is not the same as saying they are inherently and directly dependant on each other ("connected")...

I think we should distinguish between fantasy and fact. In the fantasy world there are all these divisions, bullet points, etc., and the judges pay attention to them. In the real world, this is not the case.

This is completely obvious by even a cursory glance at the judges' actual protocols. In all five of the program components, for instance, a skater almost always gets the same average mark for each.

The reason for this is that the judges are judging the program as a whole. Varied and interesting Transitions contribute to effective Choreography. in fact, they are of little value to the program if they do not. Skating Skills (secure flowing edges, etc.) provide the necessary skill set the allows the skater to Interpret the music. Big jumps help the skater build his connection to the audience; conversely a fall destroys the mood and adversely effects his Performance/Execution.

Many of the posts on this thread are of the form "But the judging should be thus-and-so." Well, OK. Coulda woulda shoulda. That's what Internet discussion boards are for. But sometimes I think that the only thing that the IJS has accomplished is to make people mad. Half of the posters to this thread are angry at the judging. The other half are angry at the first half.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I haven't read most of this thread for one reason: it was set up to bash Nathan Chen.

This could not be more apparent. Anyways, he still got the deserved win.

I look forward to future unbiased posts where people actually assess skaters equally - although I guess some people can't help but believing their faves can do no wrong and are actually meeting every criteria (in their eyes, mind you) while any skater who challenges or beats them is clearly the beneficiary of shady judging.

Oh well, whatever makes them feel better about the results, I guess.

 

[YesWay]

A half loop is only considered a loop when it is in combination with a salchow or flip after it.

So the answer is - no, you do not know what a half loop is.

Even after I gave you the definition of a half-loop, and HOW IT IS DIFFERENT TO A LOOP

Here it is again:
"A related jump in figure skating is the half loop. In spite of its name, it is a full rotation jump. It differs from a regular loop jump in that it is landed on the opposite foot, on a backward inside edge. Half loops are only done as single jumps and are primarily used as connecting elements in a jump sequence, before a salchow jump or flip jump which take off from a back inside edge"

And it is still a half loop whether it is used in a combination or not, whether it is followed by a flip or salchow or not.

Hanyu landed his half loop on the correct foot, and correct edge.
No error = no GoE penalty.

 

[andromache]

FWIW, if I were a judge I would consider a half loop with nothing after it to be a step out, because it basically looks like one. Heck, even half loops with jumps after them still look like step outs half the time.

ETA: I really think this whole argument can be summed up as: top skaters from big federations oftentimes receive the benefit of the doubt from judges. It's true for Yuzu, it's true for Nathan, it's true for Javier, it's true for Evgenia and for Ashley and for Satoko. And many more.

 

[Mrs. P]

This could not be more apparent. Anyways, he still got the deserved win.

I look forward to future unbiased posts where people actually assess skaters equally - although I guess some people can't help but believing their faves can do no wrong and are actually meeting every criteria (in their eyes, mind you) while any skater who challenges or beats them is clearly the beneficiary of shady judging.

Oh well, whatever makes them feel better about the results, I guess.

I'm going to stand up for the OP here. The OP seems to have a genuine concern about the judging and scoring based on her observations in the 4CC arena. The OP expressed that opinion here and many posters agreed with it. I think it's fine to question the premise of those opinions, but I take issue that people think the OP is out to get Nathan or something.

 

[Lys]

A half loop is only considered a loop when it is in combination with a salchow or flip after it. Otherwise you're basically saying a 2S+half loop and 2S+single loop are to be assessed the same. That link itself says it right there - it is considered a loop when used as a connecting jump - if there is no salchow or flip attempt immediately after, how is it a connection?

Now, I can understand you have some difficulties understanding me - my English is not the best, after all, but it seems you have same difficulties understanding ISU rulebook, too.

In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump combination.
If the jumps are connected with a non-listed jump, the element is called a jump sequence. However half-loop when used in combinations/sequences is considered
as a listed jump with the Value of a Loop.

and again, in the handbook:

If the jumps are connected with a non-listed jump, the element is called as a jump sequence. However half-loop (Euler) (landing backwards) when used in combinations/sequences is considered as a listed jump with the Value of a single Loop. When executed separately, half-loop stays as unlisted jump.

Care to share where ISU rules say you must use half-loop only with a salchow or a flip after it otherwise you incur in a penalty?