Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[gsyzf]

This is only true if you believe IJS is and must be stuck in a 6.0 notion of 'artistic impression' that is leg-shackled to the technical score. :gaah:

I think spectators need to realize that they can't have everything. There will always be trade-off involved.

IJS went from quadless champ era 2006-2010 (with a huge outcry in vancouver olympics), to splatfest era 2010-2014 (which led to many controversies and flawed winning performances), to the current quad era (everyone is going for as many quads as possible). After 2018, it may increase deduction to discourage quads again. Eventually, different factions within the skating community will have to compromise and find an equilibrium, that can reward all of quality, cleanliness & quads to some degree (no over-reward).

 

[Serenetyne]

If you look back at the rise of Hanyu and Uno's PCS, you will notice that Chen's PCS rise in fact isn't any different from their PCS increase. Before Sochi, Hanyu's PCS went from high 70s, to low 80s, to mid 80s and to 92+. At GPF2013, many fans were complaining about Hanyu being overscored and his PCS was too close to Chan's. His PCS was only 2 points lower than Chan's and he had a fall in the LP. (Hanyu's GPF2013 win was in fact very similar to Chen's 4CC2017 win. Hanyu had a clean SP while Chan screwed up his SP. Hanyu had a near clean LP while Chan also had a near clean LP except one pop. Hanyu won overall. He even won the LP with a fall. Hanyu's PCS shot up from 87 to 92+.) His Romeo & Juilet 2 was hated even by his fans, his posture was not good back then and he often looked tired throughout the performance due to the high tech demand. By the time of Sochi, his PCS was only 1 point less than Chan's despite falling twice.

I know many fans don't want to accept this. But by the time of the Olympics, the PCS gap between medal contenders will be even smaller, so whoever skates the the most difficult programs with the cleanest execution will win. Judges are closing the PCS and GOE gap of top skaters/medal contenders. Judges won't let a flawed performance with super high PCS win over a much cleaner performance at the Olympics. (If that happens, it will be the biggest scandal in figure skating history. No judges dare to do that at the Olympics when the whole world is watching them and scrutinizing every score they hand out.)

It is rediculous to compare Hanyu's earlier years' rise in PCS with Chen's. Hanyu didn't blindly add more quads to his program. If I remember it right, he has only 1 quad in his sp from 2011 to 2014, 1 quad in his LP before 2013 and 2 after 2013. This leaves him enough room to improve skating skills, to put in more transitions and to improve the quality of his programs as a whole. I bet few people would appreciate his Zigeunerweisen, but a year later many were quite impressed by his RJ1.0 (I have to say I also like RJ2.0 though I really don't enjoy Notre Dame). The rise in his PCS can be justified by his improvement in every aspect however this should not be regarded as a rule/trend to be applied to all young athlete.
I was in Gangneung during 4CC and watched the competitions at the arena. Objectively, Chen's speed is good. I won't put him as a slow skater, but his skating is comparativly rough -- not very fluent and no clear/deep edge. About the transitions, I'd say there couldn't be any less. Seems apart from stsq and spins, he is either jumping or preparing for jumps. Obviously, he cut down transitions and minimized the energy to perform and interpret the music (compared to his previous competitions) to save energy for jumps. I love his selection of music though, I think Prince Igor has to some extent made his program more like a program rather than an exhibition of jumps. The question is, on what ground should the PCS go up with no improvment (if not regression)?
It is ironic that this sport is called Figure Skating. Figure has been cancelled for a long time, now it's the turn of Skating LOL

 

[Marin]

It is rediculous to compare Hanyu's earlier years' rise in PCS with Chen's. Hanyu didn't blindly add more quads to his program. If I remember it right, he has only 1 quad in his sp from 2011 to 2014, 1 quad in his LP before 2013 and 2 after 2013. This leaves him enough room to improve skating skills, to put in more transitions and to improve the quality of his programs as a whole. I bet few people would appreciate his Zigeunerweisen, but a year later many were quite impressed by his RJ1.0 (I have to say I also like RJ2.0 though I really don't enjoy Notre Dame). The rise in his PCS can be justified by his improvement in every aspect however this should not be regarded as a rule/trend to be applied to all young athlete.
I was in Gangneung during 4CC and watched the competitions at the arena. Objectively, Chen's speed is good. I won't put him as a slow skater, but his skating is comparativly rough -- not very fluent and no clear/deep edge. About the transitions, I'd say there couldn't be any less. Seems apart from stsq and spins, he is either jumping or preparing for jumps. Obviously, he cut down transitions and minimized the energy to perform and interpret the music (compared to his previous competitions) to save energy for jumps. I love his selection of music though, I think Prince Igor has to some extent made his program more like a program rather than an exhibition of jumps. The question is, on what ground should the PCS go up with no improvment (if not regression)?
It is ironic that this sport is called Figure Skating. Figure has been cancelled for a long time, now it's the turn of Skating LOL

If judges follow ISU bullets at his best day Chen's PCS should be 40/82. No need to wear pink glasses, the only reason of Chen's PCS and GOE is because he is considered USFSA's only hope for 2018. USA ladies are hopeless, Shibs maximum is getting medal, so they do their best for Chen. That is reality.

and I'd not argue with person who did her best to make people in Hanyu's own fanfest put her in ignore list in past 2 years, Now she has jumped to warm bandwagon of Chen and giving her irrational opinions in threads like this

edit: Now re bringing Hanyu here - Honestly nothing makes you realize Yuzu has been very rarely overscored as trolls that can bring up only Coc14 as their example :sarcasm:

 

[Sugiady]

As a newbie, I assume that basically PCS is connected with TES right? Because high PCS never go with low TES, at least I have never seem one.
But if PCS is connected with TES, what's the point to count the score separately？

 

[jinabee]

It depends on what you prefer to see. Do you prefer to see a clean but emptier program or do you prefer to see a messy, filled with falls but more packed programs? Do you prefer to see Sochi splatfest and GPF2016 splatfest again? Which performance left you most impressed? Chen and Uno's FS at GPF2016? or Hanyu, Fernandez and Chan's messy FS at GPF2016?

I see what you are getting at but emptier programs are dull to watch. Nathan's FS might be a technical achievement but I leave it without remembering anything about it and find myself getting distracted when watching it. If the men's skating becomes relatively clean programs with lots of difficult technical elements but little content inbetween, ISU can expect a big drop off in how many people want to see it. At the moment it's interesting to watch because there are skaters at the top trying for the big TES while still delievering skating skills, transitions, good composition, performance and interpretation. I'm new to figure skating and have only recently been learning how judging is supposed to work (so feel free to correct me or add anything I might be missing), but the impression I've got so far is that technical elements should be rewarded in the TES BV and GOE, not in PCS. I don't doubt that Nathan does have skating skills, but did he display outstanding skating skills in his FS? Did he show a variety of difficult steps and movements that linked his elements together to earn his a 8.75 for transitions? Did he give an outstanding performance that was physically, emotionally and interllectually present?
I'm not being biased against Nathan here, personally I think Hanyu's PCS for the fs was a bit high in places too considering he seemed rushed and unfocused towards the second half, but I'm not sure how Nathan earned the PCS he got, and I'm not interested in seeing a lot of programmes that are so reliant on jumps with so little content in between.

Do you want more consistantly performed technical elements with a sacrafice in programme complexity? Because I don't. If skaters can't perform 5 quads in a programme without throwing compexity and depth out of their programmes then I'd personally prefer they don't put 5 quads in their programmes to begin with.

As a newbie, I assume that basically PCS is connected with TES right? Because high PCS never go with low TES, at least I have never seem one.
But if PCS is connected with TES, what's the point to count the score separately？

I'm also a newbie who's had a week of work and thus a lot of free time to try to figure out how fs is judged and I am struggling to see how or why they would be linked. The only portions of of PCS the technical elements in a programme might influence is perhaps performance and maybe composition, skating skills is arguable but from what I've read there's not real indication that the technical ambitiousness of a programme should be rewarded in the PCS because...that is what the TES is for.

More seasoned fs fans please correct/educate me as you see fit

 

[Mathman]

As a newbie, I assume that basically PCS is connected with TES right?

Right.

But if PCS is connected with TES, what's the point to count the score separately？

Good question. It is kind of silly to have all these lists of categories and bullet points. Supposedly it provides some guidance, whether welcome or a nuisance, to the judges that helps them carry out their task of deciding who skated the best.

 

[Sugiady]

Right.



Good question. It is kind of silly to have all these lists of categories and bullet points. Supposedly it provides some guidance, whether welcome or a nuisance, to the judges that helps them carry out their task of deciding who skated the best.

But haven't they judged things like SS in steps of these programs already? How could it be a good step sequence with out having good skating skill?
If they have done that in TES, why they have SS point in PCS again?

 

[Fayruza]

But haven't they judged things like SS in steps of these programs already? How could it be a good step sequence with out having good skating skill?
If they have done that in TES, why they have SS point in PCS again?

A step sequence comes as a separate element - so it's scored separately.
What matters for transition and PCS score is how separate elements meld - what steps and moves are used between one jump and another, between a jump and a spin etc - and whether these add to the choreography of the program. Doing transitions and doing them well, exhibiting good skating skills and choreographic cohesion is hard work and demands lots of energy. So the whole issue is that Nathan strips these down to an absolute minimum in order to stuff his program with bombastic jumps - so should he get rewarded in increased PCS for that? If he does, then I'll claim Vancouver OGM for Plushenko!

 

[jinabee]

But haven't they judged things like SS in steps of these programs already? How could it be a good step sequence with out having good skating skill?
If they have done that in TES, why they have SS point in PCS again?

I thought the TES for the step sequence (and the levelling of it) would be how difficult/varied he sequence is, the number of movements and turns, the overlap really between PCS for SS and the TES of the step sequence is the GOE, but PCS is for the entire routine so the step sequence is only a factor rather than the full SS score...

 

[Sugiady]

I am always being very confused about the performance part in PCS.

I am learning dancing for years and a big fan of performing art. I think I do know something about performance.
For example. 2016 GPF men's single FS. Even Adam Rippon didn't do well on landing his jumps but who can say he didn't deliver a beautiful performance？But he get only 8.07 on performance, while Nathan Chen have 8.79 that time.
Nathan came after Adam in GPF‘s FS, so I remember clearly the huge gap between Nathan and Adam's performance. But, seriously?? The judges give Adam 8.07 but 8.79 for Nathan？？？
If the performance point is given on none mistake in the program, why they named it as performance????

 

[Sugiady]

A step sequence comes as a separate element - so it's scored separately.
What matters for transition and PCS score is how separate elements meld - what steps and moves are used between one jump and another, between a jump and a spin etc - and whether these add to the choreography of the program. Doing transitions and doing them well, exhibiting good skating skills and choreographic cohesion is hard work and demands lots of energy.

Thank you for answering!

 

[Fayruza]

I am always being very confused about the performance part in PCS.

I am learning dancing for years and a big fan of performing art. I think I do know something about performance.
For example. 2016 GPF men's single FS. Even Adam Rippon didn't do well on landing his jumps but who can say he didn't deliver a beautiful performance？But he get only 8.07 on performance, while Nathan Chen have 8.79 that time.
Nathan came after Adam in GPF‘s FS, so I remember clearly the huge gap between Nathan and Adam's performance. But, seriously?? The judges give Adam 8.07 but 8.79 for Nathan？？？
If the performance point is given on none mistake in the program, why they named it as performance????

And there you hit the proverbial nail on the head... That's the whole issue - not with just Nathan, but the whole PCS related to TES problem.

 

[Sugiady]

And there you hit the proverbial nail on the head... That's the whole issue - not with just Nathan, but the whole PCS related to TES problem.

Yep.
I don't hate Nathan personally, but his FS program for this season is not only empty but also boring. Extremely.
I believe he can performance well since I like his SP. But his FS is a hell of boring, the routine doesn't match the music at all!

 

[jinabee]

Yep.
I don't hate Nathan personally, but his FS program for this season is not only empty but also boring. Extremely.
I believe he can performance well since I like his SP. But his FS is a hell of boring, the routine doesn't match the music at all!

Totally agree.

I was actually kinda offended at 4CC that Nathan's PCS was higher than Jason Brown's. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[YesWay]

As a newbie, I assume that basically PCS is connected with TES right?

Right.

Wrong!

There are certain overlaps in some aspects of skating which they each evaluate - and a skater who is capable of earning high TES is often also capable of earning high PCS... but that is not the same as saying they are inherently and directly dependant on each other ("connected").

Because high PCS never go with low TES, at least I have never seem one.

It is indeed possible to get high PCS and low TES, and vice versa. It happens all the time. Look at occasions where top skaters pop/fail/fall/Zayak on their jumps in the short program. They get low TES (technical base value drops, and low Grades of Execution)... but they can still demonstrate enough high quality skating in the rest of the program to earn high PCS.

Conversely, we also often see skaters nail their elements (jumps, spins, steps etc), hit their levels and get positive GoE's for high TES - but in order to do that, their overall program may have been skated too cautiously, the program may have been "empty" in terms of choreography, transitions, projection, performance... may have lacked speed, deep edges etc etc... leading to a low PCS.

You seem to have a lot of questions regarding PCS. It might be helpful for you to read up on the criteria used to evaluate each PCS component:
https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

eg. The criteria for things like "Peformance" may not be quite what you expect, or perhaps there are more things to consider than you expect... and of course, unless you are a trained figure skating judge yourself, it's hard to know how they actually evaluate those criteria.

Having said that, even armed with such knowledge... you might still be puzzled at why judges rated Chen higher than Rippon for "Performance" in the example you gave...! LOL

 

[karne]

Totally agree.

I was actually kinda offended at 4CC that Nathan's PCS was higher than Jason Brown's. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

As was I. And as I was offended that Chen got 91 PCS at US Nationals this year when Max's near-perfect FS last year only got 84! - ah, but of course, I forgot, it's only Max, the USFS don't care about him, no-one cares about him, and they had their agenda to hand Rippon the title.

 

[synesthesia]

YesWay's post is a good explanation of how it should be, but unfortunately it's not always applied that way in reality.

The pheonmenon of interconnection of TES and PCS existed right from the very beginning of IJS and isn't some kind of recent development as quite a few people seem to believe. With some wins this problem has been more pronounced than with others. The thing is as much as people might try to objectify the matter, it's impossible and I fully admit, that the following is tinged by my own subjective perception as well. Imo ever since the days of Plushenko or Joubert - and I'm using these two skaters as non-exclusive examples (there are several more I could have chosen) - it has been quite obvious to me, that this connection between TES and PCS exists. Even leaving out the highly subjective interpretation and choreography components, Joubert did not exactly display outstanding SS, while Plushenko's transitions (at least during the part of his career, that happened during the IJS era) left a lot to desire, but because they left most of the field in the dust with successfully executing difficult technical elements (read jumps), they were awarded accordingly in their component scores. I fail to see why this would be any different from what is happening nowadays with a young quad prodigy like Nathan.

As a newbie, I assume that basically PCS is connected with TES right? Because high PCS never go with low TES, at least I have never seem one.

As YesWay said, it does happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nyc3B1hQIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOWJAazYnGY

Unfortunately this is again a case of the same rules not being applied to everyone in equal measure. Lambiel and Takahashi were established greats, who (imo with good reason) wore the "artist" label, but they had also proven to be able to deliver demanding technical elements (for that era) in the past. So when they partially failed to deliver their tech content in these instances above, they still received their justified PC scores, because they had built their reputation in other areas as well. A just as deserving skate by someone like Takahiko Kozuka for example, who had outstanding SS and good transitions, wouldn't get the same treatment. (There are several factors that come into play as to why he wasn't one of the "chosen ones" though.)

Bottom-line: Yes, FS judging is massively flawed and therefore confusing not only to new fans, but to anyone, who tries to get into those numbers really, because the PCS (and GOE) guidelines are being followed kinda arbitrarily - or at least very often not the way they are supposed to be applied. But I repeat - this issue is as old as the IJS.

 

[andromache]

I'm offended by some things going on in the world right now, none of which are figure skating related .

Lol @ the US's "agenda" to give Adam the title. No one was happy he won, not the judges and not USFS. It was an accident of scoring, and honestly, the top three at Nationals last year could've shaken out any sort of way. Aren't there so-called conspiracies that we just need to stop whining about because our faves lost?

That's not to say that Nathan's PCS aren't overscored, but it's nothing new in singles. Technically proficient and consistent skaters get a boost in PCS in both men and ladies. Nathan is making IJS work for him just like Evgenia does.

 

[Fayruza]

That's a new twist: It's ok to overscore Nathan because Zhenya gets overscored. You mean, people are generally happy with Evgenia's scores, aren't they?

 

[YesWay]

Nathan is making IJS work for him just like Evgenia does.

I don't think he's making it work for him the same way Evgenia is... because IMO Evgenia is WAY better at it...! :-D

She does not leave anything to chance (or to nebulous and unreliable concepts as "high TES will earn me high PCS")... she addresses all PCS criteria to a high standard, consistently skates clean, and leaves the judges little choice BUT to award high PCS...!