Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[Khoai]

I'd like to see what Chan's skating would be if he was able to land 5 quads in a FS (which he is not, by any stretch of the imagination). Would he have glorious transitions between the jumps? Would all the jumps be landed with pristine cleanness? Somehow I doubt it.
Hanyu might be able to eke out a skate with 5 quads and for sure it would have a higher degree of artistry than Nathan's, but I doubt it would be pristinely clean.

Mr. Chan is not young anymore. He doesn't have age on his side. I think 3 quads a program is maximum for him. However if he's clean, even if he can't win, I see no reason why he shouldn't deserve 98 PCS.

However I would want to see if Mr Nathan Chen can add anything other than just jumps in his programs. Because practically at the moment he is just doing crossovers in between, with some very ugly spread eagle. I would like to ask if Mr Chen hates spread eagle that much he has to torture this move that way.

Mr Hanyu is the only one currently capable of doing 4-5 quads and 3As with transitions and artistry (as some people call it), however it might not happen this season. He still needs more time to improve his stamina.

 

[4everchan]

I'd like to see what Chan's skating would be if he was able to land 5 quads in a FS (which he is not, by any stretch of the imagination). Would he have glorious transitions between the jumps? Would all the jumps be landed with pristine cleanness? Somehow I doubt it.

Hanyu might be able to eke out a skate with 5 quads and for sure it would have a higher degree of artistry than Nathan's, but I doubt it would be pristinely clean.

i'd like to see anybody skating with deep edges with power and speed for 4 minutes like Patrick does... Yuzuru said it's so demanding that he can at most do it for 1 minute ....

 

[chuckm]

Nathan is 17 years old. Chan is 26 and Hanyu is 22. I am sure in the coming years you will see more than jumps in his programs. Look up Nathan's 2015 JW freeskate on Utube and you will see some amazing skating other than jumps from the then-15 year-old. At the time Nathan was still recovering from injury and had iffy jumps.

 

[narcissa]

:clapper:

 

[Ares]

If PCS is everything, Patrick should win every competition. Even his falls look good. Give the gold to Patrick. Hanyu can't even compare to Patrick.

Patrick is a master in spectacular and nimble looking splats :sad4: He made that fall on Triple Axel in GPF this season looking as if it was planned creative exit. :sad4:

 

[Khoai]

Nathan is 17 years old. Chan is 26 and Hanyu is 22. I am sure in the coming years you will see more than jumps in his programs. Look up Nathan's 2015 JW freeskate on Utube and you will see some amazing skating other than jumps from the then-15 year-old. At the time Nathan was still recovering from injury and had iffy jumps.

Some people are very naive. Did Miss Lipninski stay for the love of figure skating and contribute for the development of the sport itself?
Mr Chen will just use the medal USFA will help him to get and move on to college scholarship and say bye. There is nothing wrong with that.
It is just naive for people to expect Mr Chen to contribute beautiful programs in the next several years. If you want beautiful programs from him, you should pray that judges won't reward him too much for what he isn't deserving right now. But I guess USFA and Mr Chen want it asap they won't care.

 

[Mathman]

But if you have PCS the way it's meant to be...

Here is how figure skating judging was meant to be. Or rather, was Meant To Be in the ultimate sense of keeping the Harmony of the Universe in balance.

You have the individual element scores. You get so many points for doing a level four flying combination spin with two changes of edge and eight revolutions on each edge. Add or subtract GOE according as to whether you did the element well or not.

Then you have the Program Scores. These measure the effectiveness of the performance as a whole. The ISU has seen fit to divide this score by five (before multiplying it by five) and to give a list of "bullet points" for the guidance of inexperienced judges who otherwise would not be able to decide which skaters are exhibiting outstanding skating skills and interesting transitions, showing mastery of complicated and pleasing choreography, and wowing the crowd.

That's it. That is how figure skating judging is meant to be.

 

[4everchan]

if you want to compare skating skills of Nathan at 17 years old and someone like Yuzuru and Patrick, it's easy... they have tons of videos of what they could do at 17... were they filling the programs with quads? No... they were skating. It was other times.

Right now, the trend is for the jumps. There's no denying Nathan deserves to win landing all these hard quads. However, saying that when he was skating less quads he was skating better (in terms of skating skills) you are just proving MY POINT : there is a huge sacrifice now in his programs : he is sacrificing skating to land quads because the system rewards that over the skating.

Is that where we want the sport to go?

I like it when people argue with me, and then prove my points with their own arguments

 

[chuckm]

Chan was the dominant skater in the pre-quad era but now he just is not technically competitive. As great as his edges and transitions are, he cannot win competitions on PCS alone unless he skates fairly cleanly while the top quad masters falter drastically. Whining about other skaters PCS scores won't change that fact.

 

[Mathman]

Young skaters will just look at their coaches and tell them shut up...

It's the American way!

 

[Khoai]

It's the American way!

And that's why Miss Lipninski contributed nothing to figure skating after that.
The truth is, rewarding too soon and too much for young skaters who don't have yet the top quality has always been the reason they keep dropping out of this sport so soon.

 

[Marin]

Patrick is a master in spectacular and nimble looking splats :sad4: He made that fall on Triple Axel in GPF this season looking as if it was planned creative exit. :sad4:

with Asian Winter Games panel he would have got a +2

 

[4everchan]

Chan was the dominant skater in the pre-quad era but now he just is not technically competitive. As great as his edges and transitions are, he cannot win competitions on PCS alone unless he skates fairly cleanly while the top quad masters falter drastically. Whining about other skaters PCS scores won't change that fact.

as far as I know, the pre quad era was before Kurt Browning.

as far as I know, Patrick won 3 world titles landing his combo 4t-3t in both the short and long programs.... that's why the younger generation started to bring more and more quads, because Patrick had 3 across both programs and it wasn' t possible to beat him without more content.. However, the skaters who were part of that group, worked on adding to their program WITHOUT losing PCS... a guy like Javier even IMPROVED his skating ... Yuzuru improved a lot in stamina and power.

Now, we see something different... it's a quad race... and you know, Nathan 's SP works so much better because he has only 3 jumping passes in it, and he does have "skating" content in between... but the set ups in the LP are so long..

I find it hilarious how people are so harsh when let's say, Duhamel and Radford try to include hard throws or jumps and "it ruins the flow of the program with long set-ups" but when Nathan does it, we shouldn't even mention it?

The difference between D/R is that they perhaps slow down once or twice during the program, but with Nathan it's 4 or 5 times... it gets a bit much and it gets intrusive...almost as much as a fall..

YMMV...

 

[Mathman]

About Julia Lipnitskaia. OK, maybe they were a few discordant voices here and there about her scores. But these were drowned out, at least on Golden Skate, by the torrent of fans and well-wishers. In the Fan Fest section, Julia was far and away the most popular skarer on the board, until Yuzuru Hanyu came along and broke the bank.

A little bit off topic, but here is the GS million views club.

Hanyu -- 11 million views
Lipnitskaia -- 2 million views.
Patric Chan and Yuna Kim - 1 million views each.

(That doesn't mean they all deserve high PCSs, of course, but just saying...)

 

[MaiKatze]

shinekitty, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. It is quite the difference to see skating live to see it on TV and compare the two. When I first saw Men's figure skating live, I cannot deny I was fascinated by the quads. I never really understood the difference between a triple jump and a quad. I am a quad fan, the sheer power of the jump, the height the skater gets, it really shows, this is a sport and it's a exhausting and powerful thing to do! I think this tends to be forgotten. If it was so easy to put in so many different quads, everyone would do it. But there are only a select few in this world who can do it, and they are and should be the top guys in the sport. So Nathan Chen is rightely there in the final flight. He skated two clean programs. He lost the Free to Yuzuru who made a costly mistake. His PCS is lower than Yuzuru's. I'm not a fan of Nathan, and as I didn't see this live I cannot comment on how he emotes. But I think he won this fair and square. How much PCS points would you give?

That said, I don't see much difference between a skater like Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen. I don't see the superior skills and choreography from Nathan compared to the Chinese. His consistency makes Nathan so dangerous for the top guys. Skating clean, time and time again will push his PCS even higher. We've seen it before. If it really is his goal to win the Olympics and then disappear, it is his prerogative. It's not what people want to see, but he's milking the system and playing by the rules. They won't be changed before the Olympics. Now it's on everyone else to decide on how to deal with it.

 

[el henry]

About Julia Lipnitskaia. OK, maybe they were a few discordant voices here and there about her scores. But these were drowned out, at least on Golden Skate, by the torrent of fans and well-wishers. In the Fan Fest section, Julia was far and away the most popular skarer on the board, until Yuzuru Hanyu came along and broke the bank.

A little bit off topic, but here is the GS million views club.

Hanyu -- 11 million views
Lipnitskaia -- 2 million views.
Patric Chan and Yuna Kim - 1 million views each.

(That doesn't mean they all deserve high PCSs, of course, but just saying...)

Never, until this moment in time, had I looked at views Looks like we Jason fans better get on the stick, he's the "best of the rest" for singles (at 850,000) but now we need to shoot for the million club

 

[4everchan]

About Julia Lipnitskaia. OK, maybe they were a few discordant voices here and there about her scores. But these were drowned out, at least on Golden Skate, by the torrent of fans and well-wishers. In the Fan Fest section, Julia was far and away the most popular skarer on the board, until Yuzuru Hanyu came along and broke the bank.

A little bit off topic, but here is the GS million views club.

Hanyu -- 11 million views
Lipnitskaia -- 2 million views.
Patrick Chan and Yuna Kim - 1 million views each.

(That doesn't mean they all deserve high PCSs, of course, but just saying...)

1) correct Patrick's name there

2) what does the popularity of a skater has to do with this current topic... ? I am trying to understand how your mind works mathman because you are confusing me lately I thought I could count (pun intended) on you ! LOL

 

[Arriba627]

Nice program, Nathan. Not bad for a 15 year old. Think I'll get out my scorecard and count crossovers and transitions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbKb3RVPVSw

 

[Mrs. P]

Never, until this moment in time, had I looked at views Looks like we Jason fans better get on the stick, he's the "best of the rest" for singles (at 850,000) but now we need to shoot for the million club

You got to post like 90 times a day.

Also are we counting BOTH Hanyu threads?

 

[Lys]

He skated two clean programs.

I don't really agree with that.
He skated a SP without a required element (solo jump out of MANDATORY steps/linking elements). He skated a FP with at least three messy jumping passes (both axel, first quad toe).

He wasn't evaluated right on any of this, but this is another matter.