- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
It's like throwing some sprinkles on a pile of mud.
I need to find a way to use this analogy in real life!
It's like throwing some sprinkles on a pile of mud.
this is impossible for anyone
This would not be a simple tweak to the existing system, but a completely different way of using numbers. It would be at least as significant a change in the scoring system between today's IJS and tomorrow's OS system as there was between 6.0 and IJS.
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Do you need to research all 30-40 skaters on the roster, or only those you think might be in contention for medals or top-10 placements? How do you determine which skaters to spend the effort on and which not to bother with?
So if a judge comes to the championships and is confronted by a skater who was not in the world top 20 prior to the event, it's OK that to know next to nothing about them when they show up to compete against the skaters you have researched thoroughly?
How is that fair or anything like an even playing field. Far from solving the problem of reputation judging, that approach would only exacerbate it.
I disagree. I believe that skaters should be judged on what they do that day.
But for many of those aspects, they are only relevant insofar as they support the relevant skills being judged.
There are no scores, no criteria for hair, makeup, costumes, or cultural awareness. It's perfectly legal to compete in a plain unadorned practice outfit with no makeup, no hair styling beyond keeping the hair out of the skater's eyes. No requirement for skaters to incorporate knowledge of the source of their music into their skating performance or even to know where it came from or what the lyrics (if any) are about. If the movement fits the sound of the music, if the rhythm and mood of the movement match the rhythm and mood of the music, that's all that figure skating asks for.
If a skater chooses to do more, they're welcome to do so. But they can't count on international audiences and judging pools to have the same associations.
If a female Korean skater chooses to skate to the theme music of a Korean TV show, should she expect all judges to be familiar with the characters and storylines? What if the music is beautiful enough that a male Swedish skater wants to choose the same music the following season? Does he need to go research the TV show and make sure to use music cuts and movement styles associated with male characters in the story? Or can he just use a piece of music that he loves and make up his own storyline or abstract concept reflecting the music as an isolated piece of music?
Would it make a difference if the music had been a classical composition (Korean or otherwise) that existed in its own right with no associated storyline before the Korean TV show chose it as their theme vs. having been composed specifically for the TV show?
If they're going to ensure that all skaters can compete against each other fairly within the rules, then it would be HIGHLY unfair to ask judges to research the competitive history of top skaters and not of other skaters who will be entered in the same events.
You said:
You tell me. Do ice dancing (a branch of figure skating, originated as ballroom dancing on ice) or rhythmic gymnastics require processes to develop self-awareness. Always in the works, alive, ever changing, not stagnant, not just an end result, not tracing the steps? Certainly, there have been times when ice dancers have chosen to prioritize artistic meaning. And the rules have often tightened up in response to decrease the subjectiveness of the scoring that led to inconsistent results and sometimes allowed weaker skaters to win on the strength of better choreography. And then at other times the rules have loosened up to encourage creativity. And even then the best skaters have not always taken full advantage of the artistic options open to them.
If they choose monotonous music, it's a lot harder to demonstrate variety and contrast. Does that mean that a skater who can find enough subtleties in such music to show contrast should be rewarded more for taking on a harder task? Or penalized for not showing as wide a range? Should skaters who choose music with very obvious contrasts, with very obvious phrasing, be rewarded for making those qualities exceptionally clear? Or penalized for choosing music that made it easier for them to do a good job?
Not impossible. How else are you suppose to justify risk and rewards under PCS? To distinct difficulty and quality like you would under TES (base value, GOE). A young ambitious/unknown prodigy like Hanyu can come up with an artistically/technically difficult (beyond TES elements), well constructed, well delivered original choreography that he is able to present in very polished format well beyond his years, should be at least be closer to the composition, PE, Interpretation vs 3 year Phantom of the Opera from Patrick Chan even with best SS in the field. The current judging trend doesn't allow this.
How do you think art appraisal works, antique dealer works? They don't need to be familiar with every single piece of art like the back of their hand, but they need to know enough the wide range of standard at the top for comparison, being familiar enough with all factors that can weigh into justifying these values, to base their decisions within objective criteria/framework to make accurate assessments.
5 black handbags of similar dimensions, what makes one better than another? How would you price them?
A good judging system should fit the level they are judging, not make all the levels fit the judging system.
By familiarizing everything with at least the Top 20 every season in their specialised components including their skating history, repertoire, pros/cons, they should hopefully have enough information to compare with unknown skaters on like by like basis.
How they came to deliver what they are able to, degrees of difficulty/quality they are trying to achieve should be just as important what they did.
Hence the conundrum of the PCS judging system. You say it doesn't matter, but it clearly does affect the overall impression and add to the score. PCS should not just be skill based, otherwise it is like reducing great paintings to perfect line strokes as long it fit inside the box.
Awareness of self is the higher learning of developing value in art.
But on the other hand if the repeated program was already performed to perfection, why do it again?
Maybe we should revive the compulsory dance but put it into single skating. Everyone skates the same program to the same music with the same steps and same jumps, so the focus can be on who masters the tech and interprets the music the best.
I think skaters are under an extreme amount of pressure and an Oly year is just over the top pressure.
If Ashley feels comfortable with Moulin Rouge I say go for it. The music fits her style and it has served her well.
I think at this point it may be easier to list who isn't repeating a program/ skating to a warhorse. I get that's it's the Olympics, but part of creating that moment is to have unique and original moment. Hard to do when people have already replayed your program for years.
There are people and then there are P.E.O.P.L.E..
She should feel extremely comfortable. These programs together will make a 5-peat.
I see some fans in here trying to have it both ways.
1. I'm so excited to see Seimei again! It was the best program ever, and I'm glad he is doing something he is comfortable with that we know people will appreciate.
2. Yuzuru is putting in just as much effort into "re-working" Seimei as someone who does a completely new program.
Um, if Seimei is going to basically be an entirely new program, why are you so excited to see it "again"? If it's going to be soooooo completely re-worked, how are we so sure that he will be as comfortable with it as the original? If that's the case, wouldn't it just be easier to get music from a new source? There are plenty of Japanese music sources that have gone unused by figure skaters, and many of them might not even be too different from Seimei, and will have plenty of mass appeal.
Skaters don't owe us anything and they can decide to do whatever they want - but we as fans are completely within our rights to be disappointed. We don't owe skaters our undying love and appreciation.
I'm usually 100% on board with skaters repeating a program, especially in an Olympic season when it's important to know what works and what doesn't work for such a huge, mainstream audience - but repeating two in one season goes a little beyond the pale for me, especially since he's already done the SP two season already. If Ashley Wagner was repeating Hip Hip Chin Chin AND Moulin Rouge, I think this entire board (Ashley fans included) would be dragging her choice through the mud.
I wouldn't mind Ashley repeating both her programs from the 2015-2016 season bec she's so good at interpretation that I wouldn't put it past her to be more than capable to pull it off (her FS at Worlds '16 gave me goosebumps regardless of the UR calls unclear edges), but if there's anyone I have faith in to capture La La Land, it would be her. Given how concussions have been a problem in the past for Ashley, I'd completely understand. Everyone has their reasons why they choose the programs they do.
I think if people were a lot more understanding for these hardworking people, we'd learn to be more appreciative of their contribution to the sport.