Shoma Uno's quad Lutz

[Yatagarasu]

This is not a Lutz jump.

Honestly, we've argued over edge calls and URs and DGs for so long, I take it as a part of figure skating by now. It's even fun in some ways. But I do not recall a situation such as this.

The way he jumps this one, has nothing to do with the very definition of a Lutz jump. Not a thing. He obviously cannot do it in any other way, so he has this strange take off that makes it a mash of several jumps. It's some sort of Lutzberger with maybe even a tad of the Sal thrown in there, and perhaps even a somewhat weird Axel entry.

At what point is the ISU going to start calling these jumps of his (his flip is the same)? I really want to know because for me, if he does this, and he is not called, this opens up a very large issue that is way beyond Shoma himself. It boils down to a simple question - are all the other current skaters fools? Yes, very harsh and blunt, but that's exactly what it is. If the ISU is going to allow this type of improper jumps, then everyone should know that they are free to reap the benefits of this type of take offs.

There are plenty of skaters who are not capable of quad jumps (and heck, even triples!). The question then is, with this type of melding of jumps, would they be able to though? The answer is of course yes, because what Shoma does there, in order to jump his quatriple Lutzberger, makes the jump far easier. It's not a quad, it's not a toe jump, it's not even a Lutz!

If this is how things are, then please ISU make this clear and open up the field so that

a) skaters know that this type of jump melding is now allowed
b) skaters know not to waste their time with proper technique
c) skaters know that pre-rotation is no longer to be an issue at all
d) fans can play around with naming new hybrids

That way it evens out the playing field for everyone and everyone can benefit from the now much less strict conditions. Of course, then we won't have actual specific jumps any more, and what's a quad/triple/double will be somewhat loose in definition but at least it's there for all.

 

[Tahuu]

You can't hardly find a jump, other than the 3A, that's not forward take-off from Shoma. Not calling out 180 pre-rotation by the tech panels is a disservice to the sport and other skaters.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Pretty harsh statement, isn't it?

What do you think then? Lutz edge okay? Rotation okay?

I don't think it's a harsh statement. Shoma might have issues with pre-rotation, but there are certainly people on here with pre-opinions... which, of course, they're entitled to. I'm sure even if Shoma had the best technique, there would be those who simply refuse to acknowledge it.

It's difficult to see, since it's far away and the quality isn't ideal. Freeze framing it, it definitely isn't <<. And the takeoff edge looks to be on a flat, but again, hard to tell. Might be a slight inside edge/!

It's still an excellent attempt, and certainly a cleaner landing than other skaters who have done quad lutz attempts.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You can't hardly find a jump, other than the 3A, that's not forward take-off from Shoma. Not calling out 180 pre-rotation by the tech panels is a disservice to the sport and other skaters.

You mean a disservice to the other skaters who Shoma has defeated, and their fans who are invested in them.

There is nothing in the rules about pre-rotation (not that Shoma is the only skater to have pre-rotation on some of his jumps), as far as I know. So everything he's doing, while not ideal technique (which should be reflected in GOE), is completely within the current rules. << and < are with regards to the landing -- which, are usually sufficiently rotated, in Shoma's case.

Rather predictably, this thread has devolved into a Shoma bashing fest, since it's impossible for (certain) fans of other skaters to view Shoma objectively, and give him a fair shake, when they obviously do not want him to beat their faves. Even with better technique, they would find something to criticize him for, with the hopes that the judges are actually listening to their pleas (lol). But whatever, the trained judges and tech specialists -- who are ultimately the decision makers that a competitive skater should foremost care about -- will do their thing, irrespective of what fans think... or what fans want them to think.

I think Shoma is pushing himself, and on his terms. He could care less about what haters who want him to fail think about his technique/skating, and would rather cater to those who appreciate his skating, while doing whatever it takes to win. It's clearly working.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I'm sure even if Shoma had the best technique, there would be those who simply refuse to acknowledge it.

It's difficult to see, since it's far away and the quality isn't ideal. Freeze framing it, it definitely isn't <<. And the takeoff edge looks to be on a flat, but again, hard to tell. Might be a slight inside edge/!

What makes you so sure of that?

So you agree that it at least isn't a clear attempt in terms of edge or rotation (and difficult to make out due to quality), yet for another poster questioning edge/rotation you condemn them to an ulterioir motive? That's... interesting. One could certainly say you have your pre-opinions as well.

 

[largeman]

Let's be honest. You (and, most definitely, other folks) were thinking that before you even watched the clip.

I really wasn't :angry1: lol...

I was just freeze-framing it to look at prerotation, and then I spotted what looked to me like forward touchdown and a half-revolution hook. But you are right that it's too hard to say, given the distance and video quality.

I do believe it's definitely < though. And between the past 180-degree takeoff and the over 90-degree UR landing, it's just... lacking compared to what Boyang does and what Nathan does

 

[Li'Kitsu]

There is nothing in the rules about pre-rotation (not that Shoma is the only skater to have pre-rotation on some of his jumps), as far as I know. So everything he's doing, while not ideal technique (which should be reflected in GOE), is completely within the current rules. << and < are with regards to the landing -- which, are usually sufficiently rotated, in Shoma's case.

Especially for you, straight from the Official Technical Handbook of the ISU:

"Cheated take-off: A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)"

So now you know better.

 

[Sorrento]

Rather predictably, this thread has devolved into a Shoma bashing fest...

Or maybe we just want to see a clear by the book technique from an athlete that is propelled by judges to the top without proper calls on his edge work and << on not fully rotated quads? Maybe we are bashing the judges and the system that allows winning by all blind judges means in fact? Sure we want a no falls winner at Olympics. But could we just ask for a favor from those who decide- could you please finally after all these OMG NEW QUAD! seasons reward the best techique out there for the young athletes to have a proper example before their eyes?

 

[Tahuu]

You mean a disservice to the other skaters who Shoma has defeated, and their fans who are invested in them.

There is nothing in the rules about pre-rotation (not that Shoma is the only skater to have pre-rotation on some of his jumps), as far as I know.

He could care less about what haters who want him to fail think about his technique/skating, and would rather cater to those who appreciate his skating, while doing whatever it takes to win. It's clearly working.

My previous impression is you are a fair poster to most skaters. How do you become thinking of it is OK for Shoma to cheat out medals and placements from other skaters?

The rule on pre-rotation is forward take off (=/>180) should be down graded. However, it's a mistake in the rule not allowing to use slo-mo to review pre-rotation. There is no logic to this no slo-mo review rule for pre-rotation while it allows slo-mo review of under-rotation. Shoma has clearly taken advantage of it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This is not a Lutz jump.

Honestly, we've argued over edge calls and URs and DGs for so long, I take it as a part of figure skating by now. It's even fun in some ways. But I do not recall a situation such as this.

The way he jumps this one, has nothing to do with the very definition of a Lutz jump. Not a thing. He obviously cannot do it in any other way, so he has this strange take off that makes it a mash of several jumps. It's some sort of Lutzberger with maybe even a tad of the Sal thrown in there, and perhaps even a somewhat weird Axel entry.

At what point is the ISU going to start calling these jumps of his (his flip is the same)? I really want to know because for me, if he does this, and he is not called, this opens up a very large issue that is way beyond Shoma himself. It boils down to a simple question - are all the other current skaters fools? Yes, very harsh and blunt, but that's exactly what it is. If the ISU is going to allow this type of improper jumps, then everyone should know that they are free to reap the benefits of this type of take offs.

There are plenty of skaters who are not capable of quad jumps (and heck, even triples!). The question then is, with this type of melding of jumps, would they be able to though? The answer is of course yes, because what Shoma does there, in order to jump his quatriple Lutzberger, makes the jump far easier. It's not a quad, it's not a toe jump, it's not even a Lutz!

If this is how things are, then please ISU make this clear and open up the field so that

a) skaters know that this type of jump melding is now allowed
b) skaters know not to waste their time with proper technique
c) skaters know that pre-rotation is no longer to be an issue at all
d) fans can play around with naming new hybrids

That way it evens out the playing field for everyone and everyone can benefit from the now much less strict conditions. Of course, then we won't have actual specific jumps any more, and what's a quad/triple/double will be somewhat loose in definition but at least it's there for all.

Completely incorrect to say that his jump technique has nothing to do with the very definition of a lutz. He's picking off his back right foot, he's using counter-rotation, even the entry is a classic lutz entry riding the outside edge into the corner. Yes, the edge isn't as clean as others, and he doesn't have perfect lutz technique (again, there are a number of skaters who don't), but his lutz technique is acceptable enough for those judging him objectively (versus those who would complain about him one way or another because he's a threat). The fact that you would say Uno's lutz has not a thing to do with a lutz leads me to believe that you're not a fan of him?

Oh, and if you believe that Uno is executing a brand, new type of jump, well then he should be credited for inventing this new jump type! That is true innovation -- being able to combine various jumps into a singular jump. If anything, he should be given more credit for doing a hybrid jump, combining features of multiple jumps... rather than doing a plain, old, regular jump. The other skaters are clearly fools for not trying anything innovative like this.

Loving how the Uno technique discussion has amped up, and the season hasn't even begun. You'd almost swear that he's a World Silver medallist who is a legit threat to win the Olympics over other skaters -- and evidently certain non-Uno fans are totally shook by the thought of it.

 

[shine]

Shoma advertising that he can jump a quad lutz just makes my head blow :dev2:

his quad technique in toe jumps is purely relying on pre-rotation, making only a little more than 3 rotations in the air! That's the reason why it's absolutely impossible for him to acquire a quad lutz in this short amount of time, because a real lutz makes pre-rotation impossible as it's counter-rotated. It's just impossible. He can't jump a 4 toe without pre-rotating. It's just impossible that he can jump a quad lutz without pre-rotation!

Actually, I didn't think it was possible until I saw Miyahara's 3lutz. Love her and all.

 

[Sorrento]

Loving how the Uno technique discussion has amped up, and the season hasn't even begun. You'd almost swear that he's a World Silver medallist who is a legit threat to win the Olympics over other skaters -- and evidently certain non-Uno fans are totally shook by the thought of it.

Where have you been all these years that we discuss his prerotations and under-rotations too? This convo is pretty old already. Shoma- by all means- is not a threat, he is one of the contenders. But his technique should be judged properly, without the OMG NEW QUAD! affection. We hate it as well as we all hated winning with falls. What is this- they can't fall but they can cheat the rotations. Stop this ISU! We've fed up already!

 

[Leonardo]

Also, if he added the 4S (which he's landed in practice before), he would be the first guy to land 5 different types of quads in a program.

Not to mention, it would further infuriate his haters, which is always a nice little bonus.

Yes!!
Cry out louder haters, Shoma can't hear your complains because he's too busy landing every kind of quad ang getting medals.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

My previous impression is you are a fair poster to most skaters. How do you become thinking of it is OK for Shoma to cheat out medals and placements from other skaters?

The rule on pre-rotation is forward take off (>180) should be down graded. However, it's a mistake in the rule not allowing to use slo-mo to review pre-rotation. There is no logic to this no slo-mo review rule for pre-rotation while it allows slo-mo review of under-rotation.

Can you point out where specifically in the rules it says a take-off should be down-graded? Like, an actual link/paragraph?

In the case of a toe axel, sure, but that's when the toe is placed onto the ice while the skater is facing forward. Plenty of jumps (e.g. the salchow) have skaters taking off from forward as they leave the ice. You slow down many a skater's flip/lutz/toe, and you'll see that the moment they leave the ice, they're facing forward, not backwards.

I don't think Shoma is cheating. And calling it cheating is unfair to him. As if he is deliberately doing something that contravenes the rules. He is skating within the rules, he is not the one giving himself scores or calling his own jumps. If he isn't getting called out for technique issues (and he is - look at his GOE on things like his 4F), then obviously what he's doing is acceptable in the eyes of the judges and technical specialist (emphasis on "specialist"), who are very well-versed in figure skating and its rules. I know that you would rather see Shoma marked down and receive downgrades because that would lower his score and allow others to defeat him, but that is not how the professionals who are judging the sport see it. I also, think that judges should mark down Shoma on technique issues, by reducing GOE, and they're doing that. Even when his lutz has had no edge call, it hasn't been given sensational GOE. In 19 instances of a no-edge call lutz, he's only gotten 0.7 (the equivalent of +1's across the board) or above 5 times. Now, I know that's not the deduction you WANT him to get (30% for an e), but the judges are still acknowledging his lutz isn't strong.

Judges don't care about pre-rotation they way other people (who want to see Shoma marked down and have less chance to win, mind you) seem to. And I'm sure there are those who would LOVE to see Shoma get negative GOE on every jump and stay far behind their favourite skater(s), but it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I don't think Shoma is cheating. And calling it cheating is unfair to him.

Since you ignored it the first time, let me help you out again.

Official Technical Handbook of the ISU:

"Cheated take-off: A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)"

 

[Leonardo]

Where have you been all these years that we discuss his prerotations and under-rotations too? This convo is pretty old already. Shoma- by all means- is not a threat, he is one of the contenders. But his technique should be judged properly, without the OMG NEW QUAD! affection. We hate it as well as we all hated winning with falls. What is this- they can't fall but they can cheat the rotations. Stop this ISU! We've fed up already!

With all that hate you could start a street protest against prerotations, the people vs. Shoma's prerotated quads. Such a relevant issue. We should stop Shoma's evil planning on world's ice domination by letting everyone notice this. :dev2:

 

[icybear]

Yes!!
Cry out louder haters, Shoma can't hear your complains because he's too busy landing every kind of quad ang getting medals.

You mean "landing every kind of quad" toppled with as much pre-rotations and wrong edges he needs to land it. I wouldn't call that a quad and neither does the rulebook

 

[Leonardo]

You mean "landing every kind of quad" toppled with as much pre-rotations and wrong edges he needs to land it. I wouldn't call that a quad and neither does the rulebook

Too bad, dozens of isu technical specialists call them quads and don't agree with you.

 

[largeman]

There is nothing in the rules about pre-rotation (not that Shoma is the only skater to have pre-rotation on some of his jumps), as far as I know. So everything he's doing, while not ideal technique (which should be reflected in GOE), is completely within the current rules.

Strictly speaking, I agree with you on this. And we should recognize that all skaters technically take off "forwards" on their loop, salchow and toeloop jumps (basically 180-degree or close to 180-degree prerotation). In addition, most ladies take off forwards on their lutz and flip jumps as well. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I understand the rule in the rulebook about cheated takeoffs as referring to the takeoff direction of the skating foot rather than th picking foot (although the rule doesn't explicitly spell it out), e.g. toe axel.

The problem I personally have with Shoma's prerotation is that it's much more than 180 degrees, with his toe jumps. When you look at how other top male skaters do the lutz and the flip, with hardly any prerotation on the toe pick, the difference is just hard to overlook. But it is true that today there's no rule to deduct points. And the judges don't reflect it in GOE either. It's frustrating for some fans of the sport (myself included) to see certain skaters' jumps awarded high GOEs.

 

[icybear]

Too bad, dozens of isu technical specialists call them quads and don't agree with you.

Well they're wrong and everyone who isn't blind physically or a deluded Shoma fangirl can see that. I'm saying what the rulebook says so I'm right so :dev3: