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Guess I'll remember to add the sarcasm smily next time, I thought I was obviously enough not trying to call Jackie a hater, but okay. I'll learn from this.
Shoma Uno's quad Lutz
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Guess I'll remember to add the sarcasm smily next time, I thought I was obviously enough not trying to call Jackie a hater, but okay. I'll learn from this.
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- Jan 25, 2013
If a RFO-RBO counter is possible, why would a RFO-RBO counter straight into a loop jump be impossible? Unless you think RFO-RBO counters are impossible in the first place?
Yyyskate, considering a RFO-RBO counter is executed by starting out on an outside edge and changing to an inside edge right before turning onto an outside edge, I see what you're saying about the RFI being too prolonged and thus alternately assessing it as a a rocker-change of edge - 3 turn into a loop. But, hey, "it's a series, if you count it".
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- Aug 17, 2017
pre-rotation
under rotation
https://imgur.com/1FOHhxM
pre-rotation
https://m.imgur.com/wLA8l31
https://m.imgur.com/U8DmTxe
under rotation
https://imgur.com/1FOHhxM
pre-rotation
https://m.imgur.com/wLA8l31
https://m.imgur.com/U8DmTxe
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- May 17, 2017
Have you ever seen anyone does counter directly into a 3Loop without any 3 turn into the Loop?If a RFO-RBO counter is possible, why wouldn't a loop out of a RFO-RBO counter be possible? Unless you think RFO-RBO counters don't exist?
Yyyskate, I see what you're saying about the RFI being too deep and thus considering it a rocker-change of edge - 3 turn into a loop. But that's a series, if you count it.
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- Jan 28, 2013
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Thank you for sharing this!
The examples with GOE presented are interesting. They show what I'd call "general" agreement on what is a poor or OK loop jump, and what is a good or excellent loop jump.
There are, of course, variation in individual judge's GOE awards, but overall, these were scored similar to my "at-home" judging.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Okay, let's start with the basics. Do you think it is possible to do a RFO-RBO counter?
If yes.... then you acknowledge that the skater completes the counter on a RBO edge, which means they could immediately do a loop (CCW jumper).
If no... please feel free to look up what a counter is and the 8 different ways they can be executed. (RFO to RBO, RFI to RBI, RBO to RFO, RBI to RFI, LFO to LBO, LFI to LBI, LBO to LFO, LBI to LFI). http://usfigureskating.org/content/Glossary of Turns.pdf (again, note the diagram they have for a counter -- which, if you picture it as the skater moving forward on the right foot, could be a RFO-RBO counter -- that the entry edge right before the actual cusp of the turn changes edge from outside to inside).
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- May 17, 2017
Nah, I don't have time for that. i ask you the video in which it does happen. If not then bye.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I'm asking you if you think it is possible to do a RFO to RBO counter turn.
If you think that's possible, then it's possible for a skate to do a loop out of it.
If you don't think it's possible to do a RFO to RBO counter turn, and are unwilling to look up what a counter turn is, then you'll never understand that it is in fact possible to do a loop jump out of an RFO to RBO counter, and we're done here.
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- May 17, 2017
Ya know people ask for video. That's it. No time to type it long. If you can't give us video then bye.
i found a tumblr post giving their two cents in what they think the entry is and it looks like shoma does a RFI-RBO, which means it's not a counter since counters have a change of curve with no change of edge. to quote them "now, for what it is, i'd call it a not well done three-turns (right forward inside to right backward outside). Not well done, because three turns should be done on one foot alone while shoma does graze the ice/slightly put his free foot on ice, probably to check stability. There's no real weight transer from right to left, so it's not a Mohawk, but the result is a hybrid between the two"
dunno if this clears anything up since i actually dont know squat about turns and steps and the such lololol, also if you would like the URL to the tumblr user im talking about you can message me privately since i dont think they would appreciate me giving out their information so publicly
dunno if this clears anything up since i actually dont know squat about turns and steps and the such lololol, also if you would like the URL to the tumblr user im talking about you can message me privately since i dont think they would appreciate me giving out their information so publicly
Pre-rotation or Under-rotation means, that the skater jumps for example a triple jump and doesn't rotate all 3 turns in the air.
Pre-rotation: rotates a little on his pick or blade when the skaters jumps
Unter-rotations: rotates a little on the landing of the jump
There are jumps that naturally are allowed to have 1/2 turn of a pre-rotations, for example the toe loop, the loop and the salchow.
An Axel usually naturally has a pre-rotation of 1/4 turn.
The flip and the Lutz do not naturally have pre-rotations, but can have 1/4 turn, too. A Flip or Lutz with for example 1/2 turn pre-rotation is not a fully rotated jump.
Sam-Skwantch has made a nice compilation of jump take-offs with examples of what pre-rotation is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZOTRsyspAw
Eric's response
Rabit1234 I'm not sure what you want to achieve here, but the gifs you linked are not pre-rotations in the sense of how that term is used in this thread and are a little unfit to explain the term to someone who doesn't know what was meant with that term.
As I have written above, toe loop, loop and salchows are naturally allowed to have 180 degree pre-rotation. These jumps are taught that way. It is the standard that these jumps pre-rotate 180 degrees and if someone pre-rotates these jumps less than 180 degrees, it's nice but has no impact at all.
Pre-rotation in this thread has meant that Shoma pre-rotates his 4 lutz, a jump that doesn't naturally has any pre-rotation at all and is not taught with pre-rotation.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Yes, the best lutzes, like Jin's vault straight up without pre-rotation on the pick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWHsNt_RO1o
This practice 4Z from Kolyada is also a great example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ATG7leQ8M
This one from Kim is also an excellent example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxZsB3QUU60
However, there are a number of skaters (including Uno) that have some pre-rotation on the toe pick during their takeoff (as in, the moment where the pick leaves the ice the blade is no longer backwards). Including some of the best ones:
Kwan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44JXNGSID1s#t=5m40s - this is considerable pre-rotation
Plushenko:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7pEX2g7Jpg
(Watch in slow-motion)
Read my whole post, I wrote above and I quote myself here:
The flip and the Lutz do not naturally have pre-rotations, but can have 1/4 turn, too. A Flip or Lutz with for example 1/2 turn pre-rotation is not a fully rotated jump.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Those examples appear to have more than a quarter turn - especially Kwan's (it almost looks 180, actually). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44JXNGSID1s#t=5m40s (slow it down)
But I wouldn't consider that as "cheating the jump".
Nor would I consider Kwan's/Plu's where the picking foot's blade is pretty much touching the ice (akin to Uno's) a "lutzberger" or whatever Yataragasu calls it, even though it is subpar lutz technique.
I'd be curious to see what people faulting Uno have to say about those two lutzes by Kwan and Plushenko in those videos, and if they hold them to the same scrutiny.
Uhm, yes I would call that a pre-rotated jump to an extent of a not fully rotated triple. I'm sorry to say, but if that:
http://imgur.com/a/MWEg7 (arguably even that: http://imgur.com/a/3dWzv)
is the point of take-off of a lutz, then yes, even all mighty Michelle has pre-rotated that jump too much.
And the take-off does indeed look like the take-off of a loop.
Just like Shoma's 4lutz take-off looks like the take-off of a loop (thus flutzberger = flutz + rittberger)
http://imgur.com/a/3P8Yn
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Thanks for acknowledging. But it's going to be called a lutz (or flutz).
Even if those who want to see Uno marked down for it, the ones making the call will call it as they see it. The ISU is not going to call it a flutzBerger or whatever, no matter how cute Shoma critics think they are being. And he's not going to get called on his jumps that have pre-rotation, no matter how much breath has been wasted on it - and undoubtedly will continue to be wasted on it by his critics. Will be fun to see them try though.
Also, this is a practice video and there's a lot of time before the season begins. So I'm not going to assume that Shoma isn't going to improve this element - or even include this element.
If his team deems it's acceptable enough for the judges/tech specialist then he should include it, since those evaluators are the ones making the final call... while we're welcome to laud or criticize as fans, ultimately our (invariably biased) opinions about these calls are meaningless to the judges, and to Uno, from a competitive assessment standpoint.
Michelle skated that program in the 6.0 era. OF COURSE it wasn't called UR or pre-rotated because rotation in jumps weren't that important back than. That's how Sarah Hughes could win her Gold in 2002.
But we have 2017 now, CanadianSkaterGuy, and rotations do play a big role now.
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- Jan 25, 2013
To qualify your statement, landing rotation plays a big role now. But pre-rotation scrutiny is still not a big deal. Just like UR and Pre-rotation scrutiny wasn't a big deal back in the day, as you said. Were people calling on the judges to mark down Michelle? Should we say that Kwan "cheated" her way to medals/higher placements with the judges not calling out her pre-rotation and vilify her as not attempting to fix something she wasn't getting marked down on?
Pre-rotation should be and will be scrutinized more in the future.. but the reality is, it isn't now. So just like Michelle not getting docked for it, neither will Shoma. I'm almost certain his pre rotation won't be getting called in an Olympic season, much to the chagrin of those who want him to be less of a threat. And much to delight of people that don't consider his pre-rotation particularly egregious.
No, it was your argument that Michelle's lutz was not called out, to which I answered yes, during 6.0 not. And yes, that lutz was cheated in rotation and that should have been reflected on the marks.
You seem to still live in 6.0 times when rotation was not important. But now rotation is. And that naturally and logically includes pre-rotation.
Sadly, I have to agree with you that pre-rotation probably won't get called in an Olympic season. But well, who knows? Now that the US has Nathan chances are there.
@CSG theoretically, you can do a counter-loop, along as you have a RBO and a counter turn can produce one. but I was asking for cases that people has done it, videos. event it is a double loop or single loop, i never saw one, i am curious about it.
agree with your examples regarding pre-rotation of lutz jump, I will provide another skater's case, Nathan's 4LZ, also has NO pre-rotation, straight up! https://youtu.be/NEDyIIpwslQ?t=259
agree with your examples regarding pre-rotation of lutz jump, I will provide another skater's case, Nathan's 4LZ, also has NO pre-rotation, straight up! https://youtu.be/NEDyIIpwslQ?t=259
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