Who would likely get hit by puberty?

[plushyfan]

It's a very interesting question and, of course, there can never be a clear answer.

But when the gymnastics age limit was lifted from 15 to 16, it changed the entire sport. The 1992 Olympics was dominated by 15 year olds. There was Butyrskaya at 19, Onodi at 18, Zmeskal 16. And a slew of 15 year olds, who took home most of the medals. The problem was not that the 15 year olds won, IMO. The problem was that there were very few gymnasts staying in the sport later than age 16.

When the age limit rose, only by one year, a huge change occurred. By the following Olympics, a multitude of 18 & 19 year old athletes were not only competing but medaling & winning. Today we have competitive medal-worthy gymnasts in their 20s right alongside the 16 year olds. That would have been all but unthinkable in 1992.

Today's gymnastics rules & scoring system have altered the sport for the worse in many ways, but IMO the age limit shift of only one year was a rule change that clearly turned out to benefit the entire sport. Are there 15-year-old girls out there being denied their shot at an Olympic gold medal? No doubt. But today's 15-year-old gymnasts know they have a chance at a far fuller career in the long run than those prior to the rule change.

So I would say that one measuring stick should be the typical retirement age. When you see too many athletes getting out too fast or after a mere season or two in seniors, too few athletes lasting past the minimum age allowed. That's a sign that the ideal age cutoff should be higher.

I don't like to watch the women gymnastics today .. lacks of artistry. So many incredible strong and muscular women and if I want to be sincere some of them are overweight.
I know you will kill me because of these sentences.

 

[Perfume]

I don't like to watch the women gymnastics today .. lacks of artistry. So many incredible strong and muscular women and if I want to be sincere some of them are overweight.
I know you will kill me because of these sentences.

They're not overweighted. They're muscular so they can do the difficult elements. They don't look like ballerina. That's all. Too bad this world isn't exclusive for ballerina body type.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

OK, I hadn't been visiting this thread because of the title. But, when I saw gkelly's name as the last poster, I realised that this had probably turned into a serious conversation, rather than the silly one that it seemed to be at the start.

I had been planning on bringing this story up in a different thread during the summer when there's not much happening. But seeing the way that the conversation has gone, this seems an appropriate time to bring it up.

A few years ago, I was a big advocate of having competitions based on more but narrower age groups. It seemed unfair to have 15 year olds competing against 30 year olds. I even made a mock up of how the Majors could be reformed to reflect this (see this thread).

But, earlier in the season, I heard a story that changed my opinions completely.

I heard about a skater who had been competing at Novice level for a good few years. But, she had now turned 16, and so was too old to continue competing at Novice level.

The thing is, she didn't feel she was good enough to move up to Junior level. But, she wanted to continue competing. So, the only option that was available to her was to drop back to Beginner level, as this was the only level below Junior that she was not too old for.

Given that she is a very experienced skater, it is probably unsurprising that she won her Beginners competition at Nationals this season.

So, hopefully winning a National title will be the boost to her confidence that she needs to progress her skating career.

But, it is awful that the way the rules are written mean that there is no allowance for this sort of situation.

About a year after my suggestion of reforms, I started a thread (which is still open in the Reference Forum) clarifying the age limits for each level, and asking if it is possible to skip levels. And gkelly gave a VERY informative answer explaining the whole level system that is used in America.

So, after hearing this story, I am now a believer in the American system, which is based more on ability, rather than the age based system we use in Europe.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[GrandmaCC]

I don't like to watch the women gymnastics today .. lacks of artistry. So many incredible strong and muscular women and if I want to be sincere some of them are overweight.
I know you will kill me because of these sentences.

And yet, the gymnasts of today - the US girls especially - are much older than they used to be back in the "artistic" era ( Although of course this calls into question "what is art?" and...let's not go there!! Lol)
But taking out the fact that the gymnasts are catering to a different code, what does your example say for the "maturity" argument? That age alone surely does not make someone "better"? I buy that.

Some thoughts - what is "maturity"? Is it the performing of a heavy piece of music? Is it the level of skating ability? Connection to the music? The emotion they put onto the ice? I honestly can never figure out what it is about some performances that make people scream "junior!!".
It seems to be very subjective and often based on whether someone's favourite skater was beaten - see, Kwan '98. What about Tara's skate was immature? I remember watching that at the time and the feeling of joy and triumph she projected (and I was actually rooting for Kwan!) was tangible IMO. She certainly had musicality, personality...and if you want to get picky about ages (say, a no under 18 rule), we'd have to take Michelle out of the comp too and just have Maria, Surya and LuLu slugging it out.
Youthful emotions are still powerful, such as Mai's Cinderella skate - that was (to me) beautiful, and certainly not something that she could probably pull off convincingly in a decade's time. Same as Evgenia's SP with the coming-of-age storyline - she's got a narrow window of time to put that narrative on the ice.
If we removed all the skaters capable of giving us pure joy, innocence etc we will be left with not much variety in programs, just a tonne of tangos and Scherezade.

Again in her case (Med) we see personal preference come into play, people calling her miming juniorish...yet I don't believe anyone's complained about Javi's dice-rolling/give me the brush mining in Guys & Dolls.

I did hear a commentator say at world's that Elizabet was skating "juniorish" in her short, and yet I've not seen anyone here say anything like that (correct me if I'm wrong). Personal preference again?

As for the concerns re pushing young athletes too soon, what about the flip side - a skater who has peaked in time for the Olys but due to a few lousy weeks (ie, Mao - how many people would've killed to have had her in Torino??) has to continue to train arduously and perhaps damage their health trying to maintain this level for another quad, as opposed to skating at their prime, retiring if need be, and letting their bodies heal.

I dunno guys, I know I'm gonna get blasted for this but in any other sport (besides gym) if you're the best - you go to the games.

 

[GrandmaCC]

My understanding

Thank you so much for this reply!!
That is a brilliant explanation and one that has really got me thinking (as well as cursing my parents for not putting me in skating lessons as a child lol). Thank you so much for that insight.

Goes to show what an intricate sport skating is. I had teammates join swimming in their early teens and reach national level, however these were always boys and they only excelled at sprint freestyle, so pretty much just pure power. Interesting to reflect upon now!

 

[Ice Dance]

I dunno guys, I know I'm gonna get blasted for this but in any other sport (besides gym) if you're the best - you go to the games.

Per this article, there are age limits for diving, judo, & equestrian as well. And here is an age requirement listed for ski jumping. (I'm not surprised. These sports have young phenoms).
http://www.olimpiyatkomitesi.org.tr/PyeongChang2018_Branslar/kayakla_atlama.pdf

The reality is that age restrictions are rarely an issue for discussion until it becomes apparent that young pre-adolescent athletes have a physical advantage within the specific sport over post-adolescent athletes. Or until a young phenom starts winning. That's when people start asking questions about whether athletes that young are making their own choices about their lives, etc. It's absolutely a reactionary topic. But that doesn't mean there aren't positive outcomes. As I mentioned with gymnastics, moving the bar up one year didn't just move the bar. It didn't just result in a slew of 16-year-old competitors. If it had, I would be right there arguing with you. But it resulted in more competitors staying within the sport from ages 16-24 or so. That's a pretty big plus for the entire sport, I think.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Thanks for that link. I wasn't aware of the diving restrictions - we (Australia) have sent a few 14 year olds off to the Olys/Com games (although with 14 being the age limit I guess that was totally fine). We certainly have plenty of swimmers in their early teens, when I was 14, one of the girls in my age category was competing at the Sydney games, along with teens from other countries, and there's never to my knowledge been talk of bringing in an age limit.
That's a difficult point about the physical advantage...it's definitely one to think about, but on the other hand, can you imagine if everyone who had a physical advantage was prohibited from competing, such as a tall person being banned from basketball?

In terms of changes that help girls have the risk of eating disorders lessened and that reduce the expectations on them to be pre pubescent to succeed, I would probably look to changing the code of points in such a way that, say strength moves etc are given a higher value (I'm thinking here of how the gymnastics COP values skills that take strength to achieve and allows older athletes to excel). That way a super talented athlete isn't penalised by a birthdate, but the sport kind of self selects more "adult" competitors.

(How this could be applied to skating in an objective way though, I have no idea. People more learned than me, feel free to comment/criticise)

 

[Ice Dance]

That's a difficult point about the physical advantage...it's definitely one to think about, but on the other hand, can you imagine if everyone who had a physical advantage was prohibited from competing, such as a tall person being banned from basketball?

This editorial argues that Olympic basketball players should have an age limit that requires the majority of team members to be younger. And says there is already such a rule for Olympic soccer. The majority of Olympic soccer players can only be age 23 or younger in order to compete.
http://thesportsquotient.com/nba/2016/8/25/its-time-to-add-an-olympic-basketball-age-limit

There are all kinds of age restrictions in different levels of basketball. Per wikipedia, you must be 19 to be eligible for the NBA.

 

[pexcornel]

everyone.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

This editorial argues that Olympic basketball players should have an age limit that requires the majority of team members to be younger. And says there is already such a rule for Olympic soccer. The majority of Olympic soccer players can only be age 23 or younger in order to compete.
http://thesportsquotient.com/nba/2016/8/25/its-time-to-add-an-olympic-basketball-age-limit

Just want to point out something that the article does not make clear.

It is only the Men's football that is essentially an U-23 tournament at the Olympics.

The Women's Olympic football tournament is for the full Senior teams.

Hope this clears things up

CaroLiza_fan

 

[moriel]

And yet, the gymnasts of today - the US girls especially - are much older than they used to be back in the "artistic" era ( Although of course this calls into question "what is art?" and...let's not go there!! Lol)
But taking out the fact that the gymnasts are catering to a different code, what does your example say for the "maturity" argument? That age alone surely does not make someone "better"? I buy that.

Some thoughts - what is "maturity"? Is it the performing of a heavy piece of music? Is it the level of skating ability? Connection to the music? The emotion they put onto the ice? I honestly can never figure out what it is about some performances that make people scream "junior!!".
It seems to be very subjective and often based on whether someone's favourite skater was beaten - see, Kwan '98. What about Tara's skate was immature? I remember watching that at the time and the feeling of joy and triumph she projected (and I was actually rooting for Kwan!) was tangible IMO. She certainly had musicality, personality...and if you want to get picky about ages (say, a no under 18 rule), we'd have to take Michelle out of the comp too and just have Maria, Surya and LuLu slugging it out.
Youthful emotions are still powerful, such as Mai's Cinderella skate - that was (to me) beautiful, and certainly not something that she could probably pull off convincingly in a decade's time. Same as Evgenia's SP with the coming-of-age storyline - she's got a narrow window of time to put that narrative on the ice.
If we removed all the skaters capable of giving us pure joy, innocence etc we will be left with not much variety in programs, just a tonne of tangos and Scherezade.

Again in her case (Med) we see personal preference come into play, people calling her miming juniorish...yet I don't believe anyone's complained about Javi's dice-rolling/give me the brush mining in Guys & Dolls.

I did hear a commentator say at world's that Elizabet was skating "juniorish" in her short, and yet I've not seen anyone here say anything like that (correct me if I'm wrong). Personal preference again?

As for the concerns re pushing young athletes too soon, what about the flip side - a skater who has peaked in time for the Olys but due to a few lousy weeks (ie, Mao - how many people would've killed to have had her in Torino??) has to continue to train arduously and perhaps damage their health trying to maintain this level for another quad, as opposed to skating at their prime, retiring if need be, and letting their bodies heal.

I dunno guys, I know I'm gonna get blasted for this but in any other sport (besides gym) if you're the best - you go to the games.

I usually, for myself, call juniorish performances where the skater skates like a kid. You know when they got a theater in school, and they go out and seriousy do their best with that serious face that totally shows their effort? There is no joy in this, just a few well trained kids. For me, Liz is juniorish because of this, she totally looks like a kid trying to do herbest on ice.
Also, sometimes they are just visibly rough, the movements are awkward and unfinished. When its an obviously adult skater, people call it bad skating pure and simple. When its a 14-16 years old, they call it junior because it kinda looks like the skater is just starting to learn the stuff. This is the case of Mai, for me, she still looks like lacking some polish - which she may - and will - gain maybe already next season. This is why Zagitova looks juniorish to me too, its just too raw and unpolished. This is why Med does not look juniorish.

 

[Perfume]

I don't think Medvedeva's performances are junior-ish. I think she is very mature and her performances are all very neat. She has much maturity for her age. The point is the vehicles they're giving her, that short program with skipping movements was just so weak for her level. Her exhibition at World Championships was much better and it suited her more.

 

[moriel]

I don't think Medvedeva's performances are junior-ish. I think she is very mature and her performances are all very neat. She has much maturity for her age. The point is the vehicles they're giving her, that short program with skipping movements was just so weak for her level. Her exhibition at World Championships was much better and it suited her more.

I pointed her out as example of how a "young" theme does not make a performance junior-ish. See her short this year, and her sailor moon ex.
I mean, the SP may be not very good, but it does not look childish. Honestly, Zagitova's FS looks way more juniorish even though the theme is more grown up.

 

[Perfume]

I pointed her out as example of how a "young" theme does not make a performance junior-ish. See her short this year, and her sailor moon ex.
I mean, the SP may be not very good, but it does not look childish. Honestly, Zagitova's FS looks way more juniorish even though the theme is more grown up.

The SP didn't look childish. It just looked like a mature lady trying to act like a kid. Which doesn't ring well in my ears.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Just want to point out something that the article does not make clear.

It is only the Men's football that is essentially an U-23 tournament at the Olympics.

The Women's Olympic football tournament is for the full Senior teams.

Hope this clears things up

CaroLiza_fan

It does, thank you!

 

[LRK]

This editorial argues that Olympic basketball players should have an age limit that requires the majority of team members to be younger. And says there is already such a rule for Olympic soccer. The majority of Olympic soccer players can only be age 23 or younger in order to compete.
http://thesportsquotient.com/nba/2016/8/25/its-time-to-add-an-olympic-basketball-age-limit

There are all kinds of age restrictions in different levels of basketball. Per wikipedia, you must be 19 to be eligible for the NBA.

Just to note that (men's) Olympics football/soccer also holds quite little value when it comes to importance. (The person responsible for the Swedish Olympic men's team, said that he got - I believe - 54 refusals from footballers whom he had approached. And that's Sweden.) It's the World Cup that really matters. (Which also is every 4th year, and it takes a team around two years of qualifying rounds to get there.)

I have no idea what relevance - if any - this has to the subject at hand; however I just thought it worth noting. After all, in figure skating, the Olympics is of the utmost importance.

 

[yyyskate]

I don't think Medvedeva's performances are junior-ish. I think she is very mature and her performances are all very neat. She has much maturity for her age. The point is the vehicles they're giving her, that short program with skipping movements was just so weak for her level. Her exhibition at World Championships was much better and it suited her more.

are you talking about Med's Meditation from Thais EX. if that is the performance you are talking about, Well, I must say, I was literally "horrified" *3 by her interpretation while I watched it for the first time. And I know many skating fans share the same feeling as mine. If that is what maturity means nowadays, well, I don't know what to say.

 

[Ice Dance]

Just to note that (men's) Olympics football/soccer also holds quite little value when it comes to importance.

I'm sure the professional soccer competitions are part of what is behind the age restriction rules in soccer and part of the discussion regarding adding them to basketball as well. Though the editorial on basketball is actually trying to argue that the current Olympic tournament is too unbalanced, with the professional U.S. NBA players, and that the Olympic basketball event would be more interesting if athletes were younger with less experience. Considering that pro/am competitions were partly blamed for the "end" of the professional skating circuit in North America, I guess we can see where soccer might be coming from also. Though this too-old age restriction is a complete 180 from how we think about age restrictions in skating.

 

[Alchamei]

Back to the topic here, I wanted to post a part of interview with Anna Dušková and Martin Bidař from Czech site idnes.cz - I think It's possible no one has posted the translation yet. She made a very interesting point about weight.

''It's still the same - school, training, sleep. Sometimes I manage to have dinner,'' jokes Dušková. She tries to keep her weight at 45 kilograms.

''So no McDonalds and fried food.Even half a kilogram would have an impact. It's not like Martin wouldn't lift me, but my body centroid would change and I would jump worse.''

Link to full interview here - http://sport.idnes.cz/krasobrusleni...-fdr-/sporty.aspx?c=A161220_213005_sporty_ten

Anna is 158 cm tall and 17 years old. I hope she won't grow more since she is on the taller side of pair skaters already!

 

[GrandmaCC]

Back to the topic here, I wanted to post a part of interview with Anna Dušková and Martin Bidař from Czech site idnes.cz - I think It's possible no one has posted the translation yet. She made a very interesting point about weight.

''It's still the same - school, training, sleep. Sometimes I manage to have dinner,'' jokes Dušková. She tries to keep her weight at 45 kilograms.

''So no McDonalds and fried food.Even half a kilogram would have an impact. It's not like Martin wouldn't lift me, but my body centroid would change and I would jump worse.''

Link to full interview here - http://sport.idnes.cz/krasobrusleni...-fdr-/sporty.aspx?c=A161220_213005_sporty_ten

Anna is 158 cm tall and 17 years old. I hope she won't grow more since she is on the taller side of pair skaters already!

Medvedeva made that same remark about only 500 grams being a noticeable weight gain as far as jumps are concerned.
That's such a small amount, how on earth does a female manage to avoid a 500 gram weight fluctuation? Surely the "fully grown" ladies would need to be taking contraception pills to ensure minimal hormone fluctuation, and plan when to take inactive pills with their coaches (so that they're not suffering with fluid retention etc during competition or an important training block)?
^ this brings to mind an article by a Japanese figure skater - name is escaping me atm, maybe Seguri? - who spoke about the importance of girls being able to discuss subjects such as contraception pills and the effects their cycles have on their skating abilities with their coaches.