Why is the quad Axel so undervalued?

[DizzyFrenchie]

You can say this. Of course. Just like in some other thread, we used a different definition of "art"
To me it's more a correction based on supply and demand. More skaters are able to achieve a triple axel, so the value is adjusted.

Let's not forget how long it took for skaters to regularly land the big jumps, and I am talking here about the first ones : 3a, 4t and 4s.

Then, a couple skaters showed up (Boyang, Shoma, Nathan) with exotic jumps and then, many people started doing them.
So it took what 30 years for the first three big jumps to get regularly done, yet in the span of a decade the multiple quad programs are quite common within the top ten skaters at worlds. It's only in 2013 when Kevin Reynolds landed a SP with two quads... and now, ten years later, skaters with only one quads in the SP are at a disadvantage... and even more so, skaters with only a 4t and 4s have a 5 point deficit in BV compared to someone with one or two exotic quads

All in the span of a couple years... and not just by one skater but by several, Ilia, Nathan, Vincent, Shoma, Shun, Adam, Mikhail and others all sporting a two quad SP with an exotic quad.

So, perhaps, for once, the ISU is being a visionary by not over-valuating a jump that seemed impossible just a few years ago but has been tried by at least 3 skaters already in competition, and landed relatively regularly by Ilia. Perhaps that in 4-5 years, Ilia will be remembered as a pioneer but will have competitors with the same BV as his. So in light of that, why would the base value of the quad axel should be higher?
Supply and demand

I can very well understand why you forget Mroz's elusive 4Lz, if it was ever jumped correctly. But then, Shoma Uno's 4F has been quite forgettable, and please correct me, the best 4F until a few years ago were Nathan Chen's, except of course the stiffness of landing. Let's not speak of Shoma Uno's effectually forgotten 4Lz. The only one missing is, I'll help you, Yuzuru Hanyu's 4Lo. His 4Lz went later, the most beautiful but dangerous and he ditched it soon. He couldn't afford a 4F in competition because unlike Nathan Chen, an occasional wrong edge or unclear edge wouldn't be ignored by Tech Panel (I confess that I'm afraid that he'd have had more often a real edge error than Nathan Chen).
Then, you speak of "a couple of years later", you mention now officially (Misha Kolyada) or unofficially (Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhou) retired skaters, but you add Ilia Malinin, who was 13 in the 2017-2018 season, Shun Sato whose quads are way more recent and Adam Siao Him Fa who didn't have those quads when the former ones were active, and still forget... Who are you forgetting again? Will you guess?
This is a digression again, but it tells so much and I'm so, so sorry of your pointed dislike. I'd like to help you because you're depriving yourself of the very best of Figure Skating, but how could I? I feel so awkward and ignorant.

 

[TallyT]

Honest, I can't believe that anyone doesn't know exactly why there was no talk before of it wrong to drop it in value before but it's being brought up as oh so unjust and unfair now. It's bald-faced cynical politics and passports, Ari Zakarian style.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Honest, I can't believe that anyone doesn't know exactly why there was no talk before of it wrong to drop it in value before but it's being brought up as oh so unjust and unfair now. It's bald-faced cynical politics and passports, Ari Zakarian style.

I don't get it? There was no talk before because it wasn't relevant because nobody really had a 4A until Malinin came on the scene.

Personally I think the base value of the 4A is about right. I would like to see the 4A become accepted as the mandatory Axel jump in the men's SP though, of course together with 2A and 3A. This would open up the possibility of some exciting new layouts.

 

[TallyT]

I don't get it? There was no talk before because it wasn't relevant because nobody really had a 4A until Malinin came on the scene.

It was deliberately lowered when several skaters were working on it. And if anyone thinks this was the ISU giving a damn about skater health and safety, with everything we've seen in the last few years, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell them. Had the person who managed the 4A been from a minor fed with no powerful management, there wouldn't be a peep of protest about 'undervalue'.

(ps - edited because I think the 'you' might have been misconstrued, it was a general fandom-wide 'you' not targeted at @CrazyKittenLady as it might seem. My apologies to @CrazyKittenLady if so)

 

[Mathman]

Had the person who managed the 4A been from a minor fed with no powerful management, there wouldn't be a peep of protest about 'undervalue'.

I disagree. Skating fans of all stripes love to argue about all aspects of scoring, regardless. What is the proper factor to balance PCS and TES? How great sholud the penalties be for underrotations and edge calls? How can we improve consistency of judging? How can the scale of values by tweaked to produce a better sport.

Among American fans of men's skating (that vanishing breed), some admire Nathan Chen and his quads, some like Jason Brown. In terms of ISU politics and bullying by powerfaul federations, who are the more powerful and sinister players, the Brownies or the Chenites?

 

[4everchan]

I can very well understand why you forget Mroz's elusive 4Lz, if it was ever jumped correctly.

I didn't forget. I didn't list every single skater who jumped what I call an exotic quad. Is it mandatory to always list everyone in there? Seriously.

But then, Shoma Uno's 4F has been quite forgettable, and please correct me, the best 4F until a few years ago were Nathan Chen's, except of course the stiffness of landing. Let's not speak of Shoma Uno's effectually forgotten 4Lz. The only one missing is, I'll help you, Yuzuru Hanyu's 4Lo

I saw Yuzu's 4loop in person the first competition he landed it... so no... I didn't mention again.. because I am not doing a listing of all quadsters here... please...I also didn't mention Nic Nadeau who did land the 4 loop right in front of me at Nationals... or his instagram of the 4lz before his injury... nor did I mention that Conrad Orzel (MY BELOVED SON) landed all quads but the axel in training in one day... nor did I mention that as a junior, Stephen Gogolev had a very stable quad lutz... etc... I listed a few guys and never pretended to make a complete list... What's the matter really???? Now I understand the angry face I got from some Yuzu fans when explaining how the quads have become more and more present in the last ten years.... simply because I didn't list Yuzu.... Gotcha. Moving on. Some fans really need to lighten up.

. His 4Lz went later, the most beautiful but dangerous and he ditched it soon. He couldn't afford a 4F in competition because unlike Nathan Chen, an occasional wrong edge or unclear edge wouldn't be ignored by Tech Panel (I confess that I'm afraid that he'd have had more often a real edge error than Nathan Chen).
Then, you speak of "a couple of years later", you mention now officially (Misha Kolyada) or unofficially (Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhou) retired skaters, but you add Ilia Malinin, who was 13 in the 2017-2018 season, Shun Sato whose quads are way more recent and Adam Siao Him Fa who didn't have those quads when the former ones were active, and still forget... Who are you forgetting again? Will you guess?
This is a digression again, but it tells so much and I'm so, so sorry of your pointed dislike. I'd like to help you because you're depriving yourself of the very best of Figure Skating, but how could I? I feel so awkward and ignorant.

Oh please... this is very unnecessary. I was actually enjoying this thread until now.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I disagree. Skating fans of all stripes love to argue about all aspects of scoring, regardless. What is the proper factor to balance PCS and TES? How great sholud the penalties be for underrotations and edge calls? How can we improve consistency of judging? How can the scale of values by tweaked to produce a better sport.

Among American fans of men's skating (that vanishing breed), some admire Nathan Chen and his quads, some like Jason Brown. In terms of ISU politics and bullying by powerfaul federations, who are the more powerful and sinister players, the Brownies or the Chenites?

Well, it's clear that very little scoring favour has ever been done to Jason Brown in spite of his passport. My opinion is, that it may relate to of his upright character. Like Yuzuru Hanyu, he's always kind and polite, he always goes the extra mile even for skaters of his federation who were overscored to the point of getting medals he deserved, and even who denigrate him; yet he will strive for real excellence without yielding to opposite pressure. I believe that it would have been the same, had his spine shape been ideal for jumping quadruple jumps. In such a sport as Figure Skating, this is unforgivable. This may seem out of topic at first sight, but really, I do believe that it proceeds from the same causes as the recent fluctuations in value of the Quadruple Axel, while I can more easily get that the initial base values and their first changes were adjustments aimed at rewarding difficult jumps.

 

[Mathman]

OK, so I looked it up just to make sure I had the timeline right.

The earliest scale of values document that I kept (ISU Communications #1611) is for the 2010-2011 season. Even Lysacek had just won tyhe Olympic gold medal without a quad -- the last time this happened, and probably the last time it will ever happen. The values for Axel jumps were

1A =1.1, 2A = 3.3, 3A = 8.5, and 4A = 15.0.

These values continued in force up through the 2017/2018 season (ISU COmmunication #2089)

For 2018/2019 (ISU Communication # 2168) these were revised to

1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 2A = 8.0 and 4A = 12.5,

where they remain today for 2023/2024.

I think that this supports the view of 4everchan and other posters who raised the idea that up until the 2018 the ISU had no particular reason to re-evaluate the 4A because no one could do it anyway.

But then Yuzuru Hanyu came along and started talking about the possibility (in retrospect, even the inevability) of this jump. Plus, Hanyu had such perfect classic 3A technique that people started to say, yeah, he can do it -- or if not, then the next guy for sure. (Well, the next guy was Nathan Chen whose 3A was not his most impressive jump, but still...)

However, I do not believe that the ISU had any thought of conspiring to hold Hanyu back as an individual. For one thing, the powerful and influential Japanese Skating Association would have something to say about that. Though not perhaps a traditional skating power like Austria or Norway, they did hold, in 2018 and still today, the power of the purse strings (in the 1990s USA had been Mr. Moneybags, but no more.) Plus, Hanyu was the ISU's number one international box office draw -- they had no interest in cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

[WittGrittnGrace(y)]

So I was thinking how wild it is that the quad axel is seemingly undervalued and how much that sucks for Ilia but then I read some of the responses here and they’re some of the ones that make the most sense to me. I feel like his overall skating skills could potentially get a slight bump for being able to seamlessly integrate such a complex jump (most already think his pcs are over scored anyway) but giving more points for this jump is setting a bad precedent indeed. It reminds me of a skating game I played on AOL as a kid where the point was to create a skating program and you would get points for what your skater did in it and I quickly found out if I used the buttons to do constant double axels from start to finish would get me a perfect score, I kept doing that and then lost interest in the game and stopped playing it.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

OK, so I looked it up just to make sure I had the timeline right.

The earliest scale of values document that I kept (ISU Communications #1611) is for the 2010-2011 season. Even Lysacek had just won tyhe Olympic gold medal withpout a quad -- the last time this happened, and probably the last time it will ever happen. The values for Axel jumps were

1A =1.1, 2A=3.3, 3A = 8.5, and 4A =15.0.

These values continued in force up through the 2017/2018 season (ISU COmmunication #2089)

For 2018/2019 (ISU Communication # 2168) these were revised to

1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 2A = 8.0 and 4A = 12.5,

where they remain today for 2023/2024.

I think that this supports the view of 4everchan and other posters who raised the videa that up until the 2018 the ISU had no particular reason to re-evaluate the 4A because no one could do it anyway.

But then Yuzuru Hanyu came along and started talking about the possibility (in retrospect, even the inevability) of this jump. Plus, Hanyu had such perfect classic 3A technique that people started to say, yeah, he can do it -- or if not, then the next guy for sure. (Well, the next guy was Nathan Chen whose 3A was no his most impressive jump, but still...)

However, I do not believe that the ISU had any thought of conspiring to hold Hanyu back as an individual. For one thing, the powerful and influential Japanese Skating Association would have something to say about that. Though not perhaps a traditional skating power like Austria or Norway, they did hold, in 2018 and still today, the power of the purse strings (in the 1990s USA had been Mr. Moneybags, but no more.) Plus, Hanyu was the ISU's number one international box office draw -- they had no interest in cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I think that we must consider that the Base Value of all quadruple jumps was lowered in 2018. With this in mind, the Triple Axel change of value was coherent. The global quads-and-3A lowering value may (or may not) have had to do with the GOE going from +3/-3 to +5/-5, which would give so much weight to a (supposedly) perfect jump. The 3A's value was lowered in line with Quadruple jumps.
But the 4A, which at 15 was already statistically low, was further lowered to only one point over the 4Lz, while 4Lz was already jumped by several skaters. I don't know how ISU officials assessed the probability of Yuzuru Hanyu's landing a 4A soon, but his fans were quite optimistic that it wouldn't be long before he could.

Yuzuru Hanyu has never been supported by his Federation. Jason Brown hasn't been much supported either, but as early as Sochi, Yuzuru Hanyu had the dominant faction in his federation AGAINST him; mostly, seemingly, because he had dared to supplant a favourite skater (who was more a victim than anything, but that's another story). It didn't wane in time, it only became worse when Shoma Uno appeared. The narrative was, that Yuzuru Hanyu was "finished" and would be replaced by Shoma Uno, whose background made more compliant too. (And, anyway, mediocrity when they "take the big head", hate excellence and genius.) He was a milk cow for Japanese Skating Federation, but it seems that it only worsened things in their distorted minds? Having read very little, I have youth literature in mind, his relationship with the Japanese Federation best makes me think of that of A Little Princess' Sarah Crewe with Miss Minchin, the school owner who can't bear that Sarah is so clever, so kind, and speaks French so well (I won't pretend that Yuzuru Hanyu speaks English very well, but he's skating like a "native"), AND that, while being perfectly respectful and obedient (it worsens things too, in some ways), she's clearly not afraid of Miss Minchin's position and threats, she obeys freely, out of well considered duty, depriving Miss Minchin of the pleasure of inspiring terror. Sorry for this digression.

I'll give you an example, Judge M from the faction of the protector/abuser of the favourite skater. She was the referee at Japan Nationals 2020, inventing an invalid sit spin while it was in fact Level 3. (There was maybe a cruelty in the choice of the hit, as Yuzuru Hanyu's pretended rival had a "consistent" invalid (in Short Program) or V (in Free Skating) sit spin, never called, a 7-8 points "candy" overall, at every competition.) There was an uproar, fans went to the point of wondering if the Technical Panel hadn't mistaken his sit twizzle for a sit spin, and the Japanese federation issued a statement, that the spin had been declared invalid because there hadn't been 2 turns in the basic position, while video evidence showed well that he had held it about 2¾ turns; and while several other skaters had rotated less than 2 turns, without a call.
Where was this Judge M a 2019 GPF Robbery? Yes, she was a judge in Men's. Who was at her side? Judge W, who had previously been suspended two years for having copied marks from his then neighbour Judge E. Who was at Judge W's other side? You guess well, Judge E... That's just an example, one of those the public can see.
Somehow, Japanese Skating Federation has systematically made the choice of throwing Yuzuru Hanyu under the bus, in order to get lower medals (with overscoring; because there are federations who must also "buy" deserved medals) for "favourites". Men favourites, because Japanese Women were by no way supported in scores, and by then they had no Pairs or Ice Dancers among top skaters.

I know that it's hard to believe that a federation has the skater of the century and tries everything to crush him instead of "capitalising" on him, but it's the sad truth. You know, it's not their own money, but it's their own power/ego struggles, and I believe that it's not very different globally for ISU. That they don't care for the future of Figure Skating or ISU, just for their present personal power/ego, sometimes with financial advantages such as paid positions in their federation. I don't know if it has always been the same, because there has been a period with less of it, and more care for the common good? But maybe it was an island, or just the fact that there was more balance between federations?

 

[gkelly]

I'll give you an example, Judge M from the faction of the protector/abuser of the favourite skater. She was the referee at Japan Nationals 2020, inventing an invalid sit spin while it was in fact Level 3.

Just so you know, the referee has zero input into what elements are called by the technical panel.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Just so you know, the referee has zero input into what elements are called by the technical panel.

Come up with a different conspiracy theory if you must have one.

Oh, really. Yet they invented an error and emitted an official statement. Do you know that calling a conspiracy theory something well argumented/established, is the (not so) new Godwin point? Reductio ad conspirationem...

JSF has even published a part time job offer to denigrate Yuzuru Hanyu on social media...
They promised an investigation, never gave any information about this investigation... or any effectual recruitment:

 

[TallyT]

OK, so I looked it up just to make sure I had t For one thing, the powerful and influential Japanese Skating Association would have something to say about that. Though not perhaps a traditional skating power like Austria or Norway, they did hold, in 2018 and still today, the power of the purse strings (in the 1990s USA had been Mr. Moneybags, but no more.) Plus, Hanyu was the ISU's number one international box office draw -- they had no interest in cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Actually the JSF said through a spokesman that they did want Yuzu replaced by Shoma, and Rika (the top woman at the time) by 'someone new' because as he said, they didn't want superstar skaters to take credit for their success. Presumably they still feel this way re the men (and Yuma will benefit) though Kaori as the 'someone new' is luckier, no one on the immediate horizon.

But that's a diversion. Back to the 4A - again, it was deliberately reduced in value. If anyone does believe it was for safety reasons, except for one person that hasn't gone away. If for other reasons... what are they and why have they changed?

 

[skatingguy]

The reduction in base value of the quads was done as a reaction to the dramatic increase in the number, and types of quads being attempted in the two years prior to the change for the 2018/19 season. The ISU wanted to reduce the number of quadruple jumps attempted, and encourage skaters to attempt jumps that they had a good chance of landing cleanly, and at the same time balance the scores between technical, and components. At that time there was no reasonable believe that Hanyu, or any other skater would be attempting, let alone landing, a quadruple Axel any time soon as we'd only just started seeing lutz, loop, and flip. Hanyu was among the skaters for whom the change in base value was beneficial because it reduced the difference between the maximum technical score, and the maximum component score, and Hanyu scored higher, and deserved so, on the components than his closest competitors.

 

[TallyT]

My own opinion, by the way, is that it should stay where it is until at least half a dozen men have done it cleanly. I think that will come in the next quad. For the minute, Malinin should get the high GOEs deserved when he does it well.

 

[icetug]

The reduction in base value of the quads was done as a reaction to the dramatic increase in the number, and types of quads being attempted in the two years prior to the change for the 2018/19 season. (...) At that time there was no reasonable believe that Hanyu, or any other skater would be attempting, let alone landing, a quadruple Axel any time soon.

You are wrong. I clearly remember a Japanese TV broadcast right after the Olympics in South Korea in which Yuzuru, invited because of his second gold, directly said that he was working on 4A. He even provided graphs of the relationship between the height of the jump and the time in the air needed to make 4.5 revolutions.

 

[skatingguy]

You are wrong. I clearly remember a Japanese TV broadcast right after the Olympics in South Korea in which Yuzuru, invited because of his second gold, directly said that he was working on 4A. He even provided graphs of the relationship between the height of the jump and the time in the air needed to make 4.5 revolutions.

That's not the same as intending to use it in competition. Skaters always have jumps, and other elements that they try in practice to challenge themselves that aren't ready for competition.

 

[icetug]

That's not the same as intending to use it in competition. Skaters always have jumps, and other elements that they try in practice to challenge themselves that aren't ready for competition.

Sure, but your comment was that in 2018, when the ISU was deciding the BV for 4A, no one thought Yuzuru would try to land it. Meanwhile, Yuzuru made it clear immediately after the Olympics that his goal now was to land 4A. So when the new BV values were announced, it was already known that he is determined to land 4A. And judging by his 3A and his success in landing various quads shortly after he started practicing them, it was assumed that he would also be able to land 4A quite soon.

 

[Mathman]

Anyway, Yuzuru got the last laugh on his tormentors within the Japanese skating establishment. He has two Olympic gold metals and a few billion yen in the bank.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

You are wrong. I clearly remember a Japanese TV broadcast right after the Olympics in South Korea in which Yuzuru, invited because of his second gold, directly said that he was working on 4A. He even provided graphs of the relationship between the height of the jump and the time in the air needed to make 4.5 revolutions.

Indeed. In fact, I think that he had said it as young as 12? That he would win an Olympic Gold and jump 4A, and he repeated it all along his career. Actually, he really wanted and expected to have it for PyeongChang Olympic Winter Games, he really wished to stop competing after these Games (he said it as early as 2015), having won two Olympic Gold and landed the 4A, but it proved more difficult than he had planned, and he went on competing with the sole motivation of landing a 4A. It was a personal lifelong quest, which he hasn't abandoned yet, but his solo shows are really incompatible with risk-taking, so he mustn't train it intensively. He's never hidden his goals.
Again, I have no idea of the likeliness that he would jump it anytime soon in the minds of those who changed this jump's base value, because of course they're more familiar with that level of training and jumping, but in the minds of fans, it was very near.