Why skating in the U.S. is strugglng
- Thread starter badknees
- Start date
:thumbsup:
Rewind two years to 2013 when the US World Team (Gold and Wagner) placed 5th and 6th (IIRC) to get back the 3rd spot that was missing for 5 years prior. US skate fans were relatively happy, and for good reason. Teams before them had chances to get back the 3rd spot, but for reasons similar to now, collapsed under the pressure or had "suspect" timing with "injury". Even though Wagner ultimately underperformed (as usual), she still did well enough to hang on and lean on Gold's solid debut in order to get it back. At the time, it was a big thing and worth celebrating.
Now that 3 spots have been in place for a couple years, it is time to raise the stakes and ask to get back on the medal stand. Anything less to me at this point seems like underachieving, particularly when the talent is there (i.e. the "potential" is actually there now).
I think Wagner and Gold (Wagner in particular...) recognized this and talked a good game after Nationals about us having a good chance (and they weren't necessarily wrong about that TBH) - and in turn, this raised hopes and expectations. Wagner wanted people to take her seriously as a medal contender but when they did, she ultimately couldn't deliver (walk the walk). She makes a big deal about her critics and doubters but they seem to have the tendency to fire her up in a way that almost nothing else can. Once the critics were silenced and people became more hopeful about her, she reverted to Vintage Wagner again.
If Wagner truly wants to silence her naysayers forever, she has to not give them any reason to doubt her at any moment. She must become dependable, someone that can be counted on to deliver the goods even under pressure. She must thrive not only as the underdog, but as the favorite. As it is, 8 years of similar up/down competitive patterns gives them plenty of fodder. Hard to argue with 8 years of history too.
Gold is also getting a similar reputation- unable to deliver under pressure/when it counts most. And it is all mental. But unless Edmunds suddenly undergoes some dramatic transformation, or Chen lives up to the crazy hype around her, Gold may be the only game in town as far as any US designs on a Worlds medal are concerned...for some time. This drought could easily extend to a decade and a half. In which case you can wake me up once it ends.
RD
Now that 3 spots have been in place for a couple years, it is time to raise the stakes and ask to get back on the medal stand. Anything less to me at this point seems like underachieving, particularly when the talent is there (i.e. the "potential" is actually there now).
I think Wagner and Gold (Wagner in particular...) recognized this and talked a good game after Nationals about us having a good chance (and they weren't necessarily wrong about that TBH) - and in turn, this raised hopes and expectations. Wagner wanted people to take her seriously as a medal contender but when they did, she ultimately couldn't deliver (walk the walk). She makes a big deal about her critics and doubters but they seem to have the tendency to fire her up in a way that almost nothing else can. Once the critics were silenced and people became more hopeful about her, she reverted to Vintage Wagner again.
If Wagner truly wants to silence her naysayers forever, she has to not give them any reason to doubt her at any moment. She must become dependable, someone that can be counted on to deliver the goods even under pressure. She must thrive not only as the underdog, but as the favorite. As it is, 8 years of similar up/down competitive patterns gives them plenty of fodder. Hard to argue with 8 years of history too.
Gold is also getting a similar reputation- unable to deliver under pressure/when it counts most. And it is all mental. But unless Edmunds suddenly undergoes some dramatic transformation, or Chen lives up to the crazy hype around her, Gold may be the only game in town as far as any US designs on a Worlds medal are concerned...for some time. This drought could easily extend to a decade and a half. In which case you can wake me up once it ends.
RD
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2014
I am not sure I think it is fair to say that the pressure was off. But it was a different kind of pressure. Which is another reason why a sports psychologist could likely help. In theroy, they should be able to help them channel that ability to manage into other areas.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Country
-
Yes I am aware and that was the joke. If she had been born in Russia, then the puberty monster would have swallowed her up. Since she was born in the US...albeit with some strong Russian genes
....she won't have to suffer "severe" puberty like the Russians girls. I was trying to be a smarty pants 
#humorFAIL
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Yes I am aware and that was the joke. If she had been born there instead, then the puberty monster would have swallowed her up. Since she was born in the US...albeit with some strong Russian genes
#humorFAIL
Ooops .. sorry, Sam-S. Joke's on me.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
Ultimately I'm not too concerned with the US medal drought. I'm American and have some nationalistic feelings for our skaters and I like seeing them do well. Putting out good performances matters more to me than the medals they do not receive, because I enjoy their performances more than I do their medals. Of course, I want them to be happy too, so if they win a medal that's amazing too. But Ashley and Gracie being able to put out great performances in the LP at Worlds is more important to me than focusing on the fact that neither of them medaled here. I would rather focus on the positive aspects of US skating rather than the negatives; I'll certainly celebrate ending the drought when it finally happens, but I'm not going to let the drought bother me too much while it's going on.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2014
It is not that the skaters are not strong enough to get a medal. Just mental toughness is appreciated.
Besides, the World Championships will be held in Boston 2016. I don't doubt that US will have at least a medal in any of single disciplines.
Besides, the World Championships will be held in Boston 2016. I don't doubt that US will have at least a medal in any of single disciplines.
Didn't say they watch "her" for poise. Said our crop watches Peggy and Dorothy for poise and edging.
I absolutely agree. We should enjoy moving performances and good skating and let the medals happen (or not).
In my opinion this is a big part of the problem. In the US figure skating is seen as something only women do, which means fewer people going into the other three disciplines. Because we rarely see or hear about male figure skaters, boys who might turn out to be talented skaters don't even give it a try. Girls who might prefer ice dance or pairs quit because there aren't partners for them. We've put all of our eggs into the ladies' singles basket and when the discipline goes through a periodic slump, figure skating becomes a failing sport.
I also think that the ice princess image makes figure skating seem like less of a sport and more of beauty pageant, which limits its appeal to males and to more traditionally athletic women. Showing more of the other disciplines, pairs in particular, with it's difficult and dangerous throws and side-by-side jumps would showcase the remarkable strength and skills of these athletes, both women and men.
Last edited:
I find myself wondering whether Ashley's outspoken defensiveness about her age works against her in some way. I think all top skaters get criticized in one form or another, i.e. Jeremy ("head case"), Jason ("no quad"), Adam ("inconsistent"), Gracie ("nerves get in the way") etc. but imho Wagner seems to be particularly vocal about defending herself. If she were able to ignore the criticism better would that take some pressure off her to perform? These are rhetorical questions, obviously, because we have no way of knowing.
Yes, it was very impressive how she fought back to win the bronze in the GPF and the gold at US Nats. She's a real fighter and much admired for that. But perhaps blowing her own horn about it too much put some added pressure on her. "All those people who said I was too old should shut their mouths and watch me skate". This is just my opinion of course, and many will surely disagree.
Yes, it was very impressive how she fought back to win the bronze in the GPF and the gold at US Nats. She's a real fighter and much admired for that. But perhaps blowing her own horn about it too much put some added pressure on her. "All those people who said I was too old should shut their mouths and watch me skate". This is just my opinion of course, and many will surely disagree.
Last edited:
I have a question to those who may know:
Is the problem that skating as a whole is down--in other words, at every level, are there less girls taking skating lessons? Or quitting somewhere along the line? Or are the numbers basically stable overall?
Or is the problem that there is no one who is able to get a medal at Worlds? In other words, is it a problem just at the highest level? These are two different problems. A bad economy would affect #1 but not necessarily #2. At the level where they qualify for Worlds, they will probably not drop out due to financial reasons.
I believe that for whatever reason, there just has not been a star. Our top girls are like Jenny Kirk, Angelica Nikodinov or Tonia Kwiatkowski--good, but not great. Nobody cared if those three underachieved because there was Michelle or Tara. Actually, the current crop of skaters may be a little better than those three, because they usually came in around 8th and not 4th or 5th.
4th and 5th people, female edition.
Kimmie--2007--not at level of Yuna and Mao.Then fell apart.
Rachael--2009--seemed promising, but never moved up. Probably wrong body type, never a ballerina type for sure.
Mirai--2010--should have medaled. Choked. Then fell apart.
Alissa--2011--over achieved. Never a good competitor, at least won GPF.
Ashley--really not sure. I think she's a hard working overachiever who moved up from her natural 8th place finish by grit and determination.
Gracie--I think she's a choker, or she is trying to be some sort of princess when she's not. The biggest disappointment.
Is the problem that skating as a whole is down--in other words, at every level, are there less girls taking skating lessons? Or quitting somewhere along the line? Or are the numbers basically stable overall?
Or is the problem that there is no one who is able to get a medal at Worlds? In other words, is it a problem just at the highest level? These are two different problems. A bad economy would affect #1 but not necessarily #2. At the level where they qualify for Worlds, they will probably not drop out due to financial reasons.
I believe that for whatever reason, there just has not been a star. Our top girls are like Jenny Kirk, Angelica Nikodinov or Tonia Kwiatkowski--good, but not great. Nobody cared if those three underachieved because there was Michelle or Tara. Actually, the current crop of skaters may be a little better than those three, because they usually came in around 8th and not 4th or 5th.
4th and 5th people, female edition.
Kimmie--2007--not at level of Yuna and Mao.Then fell apart.
Rachael--2009--seemed promising, but never moved up. Probably wrong body type, never a ballerina type for sure.
Mirai--2010--should have medaled. Choked. Then fell apart.
Alissa--2011--over achieved. Never a good competitor, at least won GPF.
Ashley--really not sure. I think she's a hard working overachiever who moved up from her natural 8th place finish by grit and determination.
Gracie--I think she's a choker, or she is trying to be some sort of princess when she's not. The biggest disappointment.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
Or it could be because we haven't had a ladies on the Worlds/Olys podium since 2006.
In Dance, we had Marlie (and Belbin/Agosto before them). In Men's we had Lysacek (and Eldridge/Goebel before him... I know Goebel isn't the greatest, at least he got silver twice at Worlds and bronze at Olys). I don't think US Pairs ever had that big of a presence at the top, so nobody cares about our Pairs.
But Ladies - we were used to many ladies on the podium. Consistently. Over the last 2 decades. We're brats
and Michelle really spoiled us. And suddenly we go into a drought. Not even a bronze, let alone gold. I see the same thing happening with Ice Dance & Russia. It was the discipline they used to dominate for decades. Ilinykh/Katsalapov was their hope to challenge the top, but they split.--edit: I quoted the wrong post, oops!
Last edited:
I don't know the exact numbers. USFS may have statistics handy, but I don't know where to find them.
I would say that the high point in terms of participation in regionals occurred in the early 2000s and the numbers now are lower than they were 10-12 years ago.
The total number of USFS members may not be much lower, may even be a bit higher (as I said, I'd have to research the overall numbers), but more of those skaters are focusing on something else besides the qualifying toward Nationals in singles skating.
I think there are multiple reasons for this change and it's hard to say which have had the most impact.
Consider that it takes roughly 5 years for a serious skater to get from first steps on the ice to juvenile or intermediate level, and roughly 10 years to get to senior level. The move from intermediate to novice and higher levels is approximately where mastering the double axel and at least having realistic hope of mastering some triples, if not having already mastered some, becomes important.
Most skaters -- even talented skaters who work hard and have been taught good technique -- will never get those triples. This is also often about the age when girls' bodies change significantly, often in ways that makes rotating jumps harder than when they were younger. So the more important triples have become over the past 40ish years, the more skaters have to give up their dreams of success at that transitional age. Some just quit the sport entirely, some redirect their goals, some keep dreaming but get frustrated, a small percentage succeed.
*For various reasons there was a huge spike in US interest in skating in the mid-1990s. Skaters who started at that point started to reach competitive levels in the late 90s and some of them elite levels in the early 2000s. Hence the peak participation in those years.
*US ladies were winning world/Olympic medals through the mid-00s, but for various reasons -- some having to do with the specific skaters on top, some with the way the sport was changing, some with the way media and entertainment options outside the sport were changing -- there was not quite as much of an allure ca. 2005 for young kids to get enchanted by the sport and commit their lives to training toward elite levels as there had been ca. 1995.
*First the increase of the importance of triple jumps, and then IJS with the increased emphasis on difficult positions and complex programs made competitive track skating more technically challenging and increased the likelihood of injury. So some skaters left because of injury or fear of injury, others because they just didn't like the direction the sport was going -- although they may have kept skating but not competitively.
*Synchronized skating was growing in popularity, and the US also introduced showcase, competitive test track, and solo dance competition tracks. So a lot of skaters have stayed in the sport past learn-to-skate, or past juvenile/intermediate level, but not in competitive singles skating.
*In some parts of the country, ice dance has attracted skaters who might otherwise have gone into singles or pairs. Or not taken up figure skating at all. Compared to 10 or 15 years ago, ice dance is doing just fine. But the total number of competitive ice dancers in the country is still a small fraction of all competitive skaters, let alone all skaters. (And pairs is almost always the smallest discipline.)
*The US economy went through some tough times. Some skaters had to drop out or readjust their goals from competitive to recreational for financial reasons; some kids who might have liked to take up the sport couldn't afford it.
Regionals participation also fluctuates from year to year depending on where in the region the competition is located -- how far do skaters need to travel to enter?
I don't know how the total number of skaters or competitive skaters in the country translates into the skaters who do make it to the top of the US standings going on to win medals.
One other thing to keep in mind is that (except in ice dance) there hasn't been a single US star who can always be counted on to dominate the field domestically and challenge for medals internationally. And IJS makes it harder for judges to hold up a skater they might consider more talented if s/he doesn't deliver at Nationals. When there are 5 or more skaters within the country who are all competitive with each other, without a clear leader, it's hard for any of them to build momentum at an international level.
There are still enough talented US ladies, and sometimes men in some sections, that for those trying to break into the top tier nationally, just getting to Nationals in any given year is not a given. (Once they do break through and earn byes, that part gets easier.) So even domestic momentum can be hard to maintain.
Could someone clarify what the levels are for young skaters who are beyond basic beginners, but aren't yet at the novice, then junior stages? I'm assuming there are more steps between, such as "intermediate" or is this the same thing as the novice level?
Interesting that it takes 5 years to reach juniors and 10 years to reach seniors. I didn't realize it took that long, but it makes sense when you think about it. I'm sure that has something to do with young skaters dropping out too. In the US we're all about instant gratification, and if someone can play travel soccer and be on a winning team right away, as opposed to working for years to become a winning figure skater, it would make the other sports more appealing.
Interesting that it takes 5 years to reach juniors and 10 years to reach seniors. I didn't realize it took that long, but it makes sense when you think about it. I'm sure that has something to do with young skaters dropping out too. In the US we're all about instant gratification, and if someone can play travel soccer and be on a winning team right away, as opposed to working for years to become a winning figure skater, it would make the other sports more appealing.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2006
USFSA levels (after Basic. Usually you have an axel in practice by the time you start up the ranks):
Pre-Preliminary
Preliminary
Pre-Juvenile
Juvenile
Intermediate
Novice
Junior
Senior
The standard track US test levels, from lowest to highest, are
Pre-Preliminary Preliminary Pre-Juvenile Juvenile
Intermediate Novice Junior Senior
Skaters are required to pass Moves in the Field tests (stroking exercises, patterns testing mastery of turns and steps) before they can take the corresponding freestyle test.
Freestyle tests determine what level a skater is allowed to compete in as a singles skater. Skaters are allowed to test ahead in Moves in the Field as far as they want. (E.g., it's not uncommon for intermediate competitors to have passed their Senior MITF.)
There's also a No-Test level for skaters who haven't yet passed their Pre-Preliminary freestyle test.
Moves in the Field tests are also required for other disciplines of competition, and of course pair skaters need to pass pair tests and ice dancers also need to pass pattern dance and free dance tests instead of freestyle tests.
You can download forms that show what is required on each test
The first two links under "Singles" here show what is required and allowed in short programs and free programs at each level.
You'll note that as the levels get higher, the difference between what's required on the test and what's allowed in competition (or required in the short program) gets larger and larger. For the serious competitors, the higher level tests are not nearly as challenging as what they need to do in competition -- just a formality to establish when they officially move from one level to the next. Once they've passed the junior test, for example, they're not allowed to go back and compete novice any more.
That's how it works in the US. Different countries break up their developmental levels in different ways and may or may not require tests to advance to the next level.
Pre-Preliminary Preliminary Pre-Juvenile Juvenile
Intermediate Novice Junior Senior
Skaters are required to pass Moves in the Field tests (stroking exercises, patterns testing mastery of turns and steps) before they can take the corresponding freestyle test.
Freestyle tests determine what level a skater is allowed to compete in as a singles skater. Skaters are allowed to test ahead in Moves in the Field as far as they want. (E.g., it's not uncommon for intermediate competitors to have passed their Senior MITF.)
There's also a No-Test level for skaters who haven't yet passed their Pre-Preliminary freestyle test.
Moves in the Field tests are also required for other disciplines of competition, and of course pair skaters need to pass pair tests and ice dancers also need to pass pattern dance and free dance tests instead of freestyle tests.
You can download forms that show what is required on each test
The first two links under "Singles" here show what is required and allowed in short programs and free programs at each level.
You'll note that as the levels get higher, the difference between what's required on the test and what's allowed in competition (or required in the short program) gets larger and larger. For the serious competitors, the higher level tests are not nearly as challenging as what they need to do in competition -- just a formality to establish when they officially move from one level to the next. Once they've passed the junior test, for example, they're not allowed to go back and compete novice any more.
That's how it works in the US. Different countries break up their developmental levels in different ways and may or may not require tests to advance to the next level.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
In men's it will be very tough (especially if Chan returns) - simply because the US men are technically not strong/consistent enough to medal... their best jumper isn't very artistic, and their best artistic skater isn't the strongest jumper (well, we'll see if Brown gets his quad). In ladies, it's possible -- Ashley is still hungry, and Gold regained some confidence -- however you'd have to think that with Medvedeva possibly joining Tukt and Radionova and even Lipnitskaia returning to form hopefully, the Russians will monopolize the podium.
Similar threads
