2016 Lombardia Trophy Mens FS

[Raomina]

I really didn't like Shoma's FS when he debuted it and the vocals at the end didn't help at all but I'm appreciating it more here. The choreography really captures the variations in the tempo in the first half of the program and I liked the step sequence. The music in the second half seems to overpower him though and he doesn't seem to skate 'big' enough to match the vocals. Maybe there's just too many jumps and they didn't really fit the music. It would've been better if the order of his 3A-3T was switched with his 3A as well, just to match the high point and when the music stops.

Jason's FS music lacks variation in tempo and dynamics in comparison, so it was really weird to see so many spirals all over the program when the music doesn't change. Those spirals and hydroblading moves seem more like filler transitions (?) than choreographic movements. He could've been skating to any soft piano music with this choreography to me... However, he does have very good speed on the ice and nice flow out of his jumps that is very pleasant to watch. His speed doesn't really fall off even towards the end of the program, which I guess matches the unchanging music.

 

[Heleng]

Yes, it did seem Max was lost at certain points. I'm sure this program will shine more with some mileage.

I'm not as effusive as Karne, and have only watched it once, but I think Max's program has the potential to be his best so far. He's clearly working on his artistry and it seems more natural in this program than last year's. And I think the patterned top (versus a solid color) with black pants is a good choice to deaccenuate his long torso in comparison to his relatively short legs to make his legs appear longer and improve his body line.

 

[karne]

I agree. This program has bad music cuts, not great choreo and a really bad costume. The top looks like it came from the Halloween costume store rack. I really don't understand why a top coach like Tom Z can rarely produce good choreo and costume packages for his skaters. Max's strengths are not on the lyrical side. Max is an Elvis Stoko type. He needs big music, strong rhythm, powerful music that builds. What's with Tom Z that he can't see this? Picking programs that may seem to be the going thing with the judges is always a mistake. It's so obvious when a program does not suit a skater.

Wut? Did we watch the same program? The gorgeous, detailed shirt - from a Halloween costume rack? The bad music cuts - that sound seamless to the ear? Bad choreo - when it is the fullest and most beautiful of all Max's programs, even at this early time when he clearly had a few moments of "hang on, gotta remember this bit"?

Z does not pick Max's programs - oh good grief, this is going to be yet ANOTHER season where this has to be repeated over and over, doesn't it? What is so offensive to you about Max having an artistic soul that you refuse to listen to what he has to say? Over and over again he tells people that HE chooses his programs, yet you accuse him of lying? HE developed this concept. HE came up with this program idea. He's been sitting on this one for years.

After watching both of Jason Brown's programs here, I believe I see him jumping up into the air much higher than before. Those triple axels especially reflected that improvement.

He has a lot more power and strength. I like it.

Are you kidding me? You can clearly see his blade turning on the ice, which ultimately caused him the fall.
Perhaps, one of his better attempt....

Coming from a poster called "mirai4life"? Calling someone out on URs is a bit pot-kettle-black, isn't it?

including in this 2012 joint-interview with Joshua Farris.

(And that interview makes me sad Joshua isn't around anymore. While it took me a while to warm up to his skating, I absolutely loved their rivalry and how it pushed them to do better).

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH now I am sadkarne again :sad21:

I'm not as effusive as Karne, and have only watched it once, but I think Max's program has the potential to be his best so far. He's clearly working on his artistry and it seems more natural in this program than last year's. And I think the patterned top (versus a solid color) with black pants is a good choice to deaccenuate his long torso in comparison to his relatively short legs to make his legs appear longer and improve his body line.

I think it will be his best! I am so excited! How long til Autumn Challenge?

 

[4everchan]

3 weekends till the Autumn Classic... his costume needs fixing though.. .didn't we see his pants or undies band ?

 

[Tavi...]

Jason's FS music lacks variation in tempo and dynamics in comparison, so it was really weird to see so many spirals all over the program when the music doesn't change. Those spirals and hydroblading moves seem more like filler transitions (?) than choreographic movements. He could've been skating to any soft piano music with this choreography to me... However, he does have very good speed on the ice and nice flow out of his jumps that is very pleasant to watch. His speed doesn't really fall off even towards the end of the program, which I guess matches the unchanging music.

The Piano isn't my favorite piece of music ever, but it has a lot of long legato phrases and subtle variations in dynamics that Rohene's choreography emphasizes beautifully, IMO. The sequence of the two spirals, falling leaf, hydroblade, and loop jump starts when the piano is replaced with full orchestration, and it describes a series of decreasing circles before expanding out with the 3 jump combo and then coming back to center for the final spin. Honestly, the more I see the choreography the more I love it. Something else that's very special is how beautifully Jason times his movements to emphasize the music: some of that's built into the choreography, but quite a lot of it is simply his innate musicality.

 

[noskates]

My opinion of Jason's music is yet another genius move by his team. He clearly has to show up others with his sterling performance value.....the music is only a backdrop to that. You focus on his skating and not necessarily his interpretation of the music which is, as usual, stellar. I found myself watching him instead of listening. I don't think there is another man out there with the flexibility and smoothness that he exhibits (and my second favorite male skater is Patrick Chan who has the smoothness but not the flexibility) I think Kori Ade and Rohene Ward have emphasized Jason's strengths and possibly the advantage he has over other skaters that don't have the same strengths but have others like the quads. Jason always starts out slow and builds toward Nationals. I think this is going to be a phenomenol program as the season progresses.

Unfortunately I think Max has missed the target again. I'm not sure what his team is thinking but I really wish they would choose music and choreo that emphasizes HIS strengths. You didn't see Elvis Stojko skating to classical and Broadway. Max has mad talent but I always feel like his team is trying to turn him into someone he isn't. Long ago I promised someone on this board I would no longer comment on Max's performances but Lion King.....whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

 

[karne]

3 weekends till the Autumn Classic... his costume needs fixing though.. .didn't we see his pants or undies band ?

Three whole weekends? *whine* How am I going to live?

I think they do need to fasten the shirt down, or give him an undershirt ala Black Swan.

Unfortunately I think Max has missed the target again. I'm not sure what his team is thinking but I really wish they would choose music and choreo that emphasizes HIS strengths. You didn't see Elvis Stojko skating to classical and Broadway. Max has mad talent but I always feel like his team is trying to turn him into someone he isn't. Long ago I promised someone on this board I would no longer comment on Max's performances but Lion King.....whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Oh. My. Freaking. God. Not. This. Stupid. Ignorant. Comment. Again. :gaah:

For the ten billionth time: MAX CHOOSES HIS MUSIC. HE CHOOSES THE CONCEPTS AND THE WAY HE WANTS TO GO. Max's "team" is NOT CHOOSING FOR HIM. Once again: MAX HIMSELF IS CHOOSING HIS MUSIC.

He even said earlier this year that he developed the concept for the Lion King program a couple of years ago and figured now was the appropriate time. Oh but wait, that doesn't fit with your narrative, because obviously Evil Ex-Hockey Player Unartistic Max can't POSSIBLY have an artistic soul and ideas about what HE wants to skate to!

 

[4everchan]

^^ hehe Karne,

please calm down.... see.... I have read your comments about Max a few times and I know that he "unfortunately in my opinion" chooses his music...

sometimes, as artists, we want to explore and discover things that are far away from us... as going for things that are too close to us makes life pretty dull.

So i commend Max for trying out new things for him, exploring other horizons, and going for broke with opera or broadway or what not...


However, he could do that in his ex... when I see him skate, i long for a very athletic max... i long for some power... i want him to be at his best.

so I sort of agree with noskates here. I'd like to see Max in something very powerful... you know, Elvis is indeed a good example and right now, Max would stand out because nobody really skates like that right now, right?

anyways, whatever makes him happy but somehow, we fans, are more into, whatever will make us happy , and to me, it would be for him to skate to something where he can be 100% powerful and athletic... I don't mind if he keeps the tights though

 

[ice coverage]

... Unfortunately I think Max has missed the target again. I'm not sure what his team is thinking but I really wish they would choose music and choreo that emphasizes HIS strengths. You didn't see Elvis Stojko skating to classical and Broadway. Max has mad talent but I always feel like his team is trying to turn him into someone he isn't. Long ago I promised someone on this board I would no longer comment on Max's performances but Lion King.....whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Hi, noskates.
I do sincerely appreciate that you have been trying to limit your comments about Max.
And in return, I will try to limit my response.

You always feel as if Max's team is trying to turn him into someone he is not -- but I feel as if you and others on GS often are trying to turn him into Elvis Stojko. And Max is not Elvis Stojko. Elvis was a very successful skater. But I repeat: Max is not Elvis Stojko.

---

I'm not as effusive as Karne, and have only watched it once, but I think Max's program has the potential to be his best so far. He's clearly working on his artistry and it seems more natural in this program than last year's. And I think the patterned top (versus a solid color) with black pants is a good choice to deaccenuate his long torso in comparison to his relatively short legs to make his legs appear longer and improve his body line.

:agree: Thanks, Heleng. Hoping that The Lion King will become Max's best ever.
Last season, he placed second at Collegiates (to R. Dornbush) and second at Nebelhorn (to Elladj) ... and then he won Skate America.
So I hope Max once again is just getting started on his way to making the World team this season.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I watched Shoma, Jason, and Max, and then Shoma again to verify my impression and comparison to Jason. Not interested in watching the other two performances again from this event.

Jason and Shoma are impressive for this very early outing. Shoma, especially, has the potential to score much higher. His 4F problems, not huge, dragged down his marks this time, but Patrick's comment on his easy 4F has me believe his 4F may actually be quite consistent and he may prove so in later competitions. I also like his program which keeps the flavour throughout, including the vocal section, unlike Max's music cuts, especially the vocal interjection. He also had ice coverage and skated much bigger than his stature.

Jason, of course, has been steady in his rise and improvement. I'm not so keen on this choreography, finding it boring even with all the arm movements, spirals, and some interesting moves. I agree with Raomina's observation that the music did not vary and the variety of movements seemed more fillers to suit his skating skills and flexibility than relevant to the music. I didn't see deep or sustained edges.

As usual, Max's music is irrelevant. I'm glad he can't blame anyone else for his music choice, the awful cuts, and the choreography.

 

[msteach3]

Hate Uno's music. Not just dislike but actively hate.

Why? Why?

I'm so disappointed in his music choices this season. The free skate music is just simply awful. :noshake:

 

[badknees]

Wut? Did we watch the same program? The gorgeous, detailed shirt - from a Halloween costume rack? The bad music cuts - that sound seamless to the ear? Bad choreo - when it is the fullest and most beautiful of all Max's programs, even at this early time when he clearly had a few moments of "hang on, gotta remember this bit"?

Z does not pick Max's programs - oh good grief, this is going to be yet ANOTHER season where this has to be repeated over and over, doesn't it? What is so offensive to you about Max having an artistic soul that you refuse to listen to what he has to say? Over and over again he tells people that HE chooses his programs, yet you accuse him of lying? HE developed this concept. HE came up with this program idea. He's been sitting on this one for years.



He has a lot more power and strength. I like it.



Coming from a poster called "mirai4life"? Calling someone out on URs is a bit pot-kettle-black, isn't it?



WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH now I am sadkarne again :sad21:



I think it will be his best! I am so excited! How long til Autumn Challenge?

Please excuse my ignorance and lack of knowledge on who chooses Max's music. I was not aware of this. I just assumed that his team would have some input into his packaging. You seem to have first hand knowledge of this so I will not post again until I read all of your posts for the correct information.
I do apologize for upsetting you however your comment about accusing Max of lying is way off base. I did nothing of the sort. I simply gave my opinion on this program. My opinion remains the same no matter who chose the music and did the choreo.
I do thank you for correcting my incorrect assumption however, I humbly request that you tame the anger in your posts. Screaming at posters simply because they had incorrect information and assumptions is never productive.

 

[cinnamon]

I'm not sure if Uno can grow so fast to catch up with that music. They try to make Daisuke out of Uno. It seems to me that he is too young for Tango.
And Jason, I know his quality and Rohene's choreo, but isn't it a better strategy to pick music with more ups and downs?

 

[Arriba627]

I watched Shoma, Jason, and Max, and then Shoma again to verify my impression and comparison to Jason. Not interested in watching the other two performances again from this event.

Jason and Shoma are impressive for this very early outing. Shoma, especially, has the potential to score much higher. His 4F problems, not huge, dragged down his marks this time, but Patrick's comment on his easy 4F has me believe his 4F may actually be quite consistent and he may prove so in later competitions. I also like his program which keeps the flavour throughout, including the vocal section, unlike Max's music cuts, especially the vocal interjection. He also had ice coverage and skated much bigger than his stature.

I thought Jason and Shoma looked much more polished than everyone else, which makes sense since Jason is using the same program and Shoma debuted his in June during Japan's ice show season. I haven't been able to watch Max's program yet -- but I love Max and I love the Lion King, so I'm excited to see it. I saw in another thread a Tweet that was showing Max admiring Shoma's costume - maybe we can get a Shoma style costume for Max?!

 

[Arriba627]

I'm not sure if Uno can grow so fast to catch up with that music. They try to make Daisuke out of Uno. It seems to me that he is too young for Tango.

This tango has more Stephane Lambiel than Daisuke. I know Shoma really admires Uncle Dai and looks up to him, but I find them very different.

 

[noskates]

If Max chooses his music than perhaps he needs some guidance. I realize there is an uber fan on this board with regards to Max but that doesn't prevent some of the rest of us from having an opinion. I stand by my post!!!!!!!!!!! The music cuts are awful and the choreo is mundane.

Furthermore, calling someone's post stupid and ignorant is not only disrespectful but immature. We all have our favorites for different reasons but I don't think any of us should be subjected to this type of ridicule.

Can't we keep this thread and future threads at least civil?

eta: I only mention Elvis Stojko in that Elvis had much the same style of skating. I realize Max is not Elvis nor would I want him to be.

 

[MaxSwagg]

The judging here was a mess. Between Shoma's spins and Jason's 4T (no way in hell that was rotated)...just a mess.

Max is just a disaster, as per usual.

 

[Tavi...]

The judging here was a mess. Between Shoma's spins and Jason's 4T (no way in hell that was rotated)...just a mess.

Max is just a disaster, as per usual.

You know it's the technical panel, not the judges, who call jump rotations, that they have replay at their disposal, and that in borderline cases the call is supposed to go to the skater, right? Also that the exact same technical panel had absolutely no problem in << Jason's 4T attempt in the SP?

 

[karne]

so I sort of agree with noskates here. I'd like to see Max in something very powerful... you know, Elvis is indeed a good example and right now, Max would stand out because nobody really skates like that right now, right?

But he doesn't want to be Elvis. He's never wanted to be Elvis. Why should he? He's better than that.

I don't mind if he keeps the tights though

Well, that's a given. :

Hi, noskates.
I do sincerely appreciate that you have been trying to limit your comments about Max.
And in return, I will try to limit my response.

You always feel as if Max's team is trying to turn him into someone he is not -- but I feel as if you and others on GS often are trying to turn him into Elvis Stojko. And Max is not Elvis Stojko. Elvis was a very successful skater. But I repeat: Max is not Elvis Stojko.

Well said, ice coverage.

Please excuse my ignorance and lack of knowledge on who chooses Max's music. I was not aware of this. I just assumed that his team would have some input into his packaging. You seem to have first hand knowledge of this so I will not post again until I read all of your posts for the correct information.
I do apologize for upsetting you however your comment about accusing Max of lying is way off base. I did nothing of the sort. I simply gave my opinion on this program. My opinion remains the same no matter who chose the music and did the choreo.
I do thank you for correcting my incorrect assumption however, I humbly request that you tame the anger in your posts. Screaming at posters simply because they had incorrect information and assumptions is never productive.

Do you not understand why I am frustrated? Max has stated over, and over, and over again in interviews that he is the one who chooses his music. Mills has backed it up. This is not new information. He has been having to say this for more than a year. And every time, people choose to ignore it because it does not fit their narrative about who he is. He is the ex-hockey player, the jock, he's not supposed to be artistic, he's not supposed to love classics, or aspire to be anything more than he is.

You cannot tell me that these are new people who've got no idea about Max. It is experienced posters, knowledgeable fans like you who are repeating it over and over, even though time and again Max himself has said otherwise. If I must scream to stop this ridiculous, nasty little gossip that persists in going around that people are trying to force Max to do these things when it is completely the opposite, then so I shall.

I thank you for accepting the correction with grace and I hope that we can discuss how well the program is coming later in the season.

Furthermore, calling someone's post stupid and ignorant is not only disrespectful but immature. We all have our favorites for different reasons but I don't think any of us should be subjected to this type of ridicule.

Is it not disrespectful and immature to completely discard everything a skater has said and to keep perpetuating an untruth about that skater's plans?

Is it not disrespectful and immature to demand that a skater stays in the box that the fans and judges have shoved him into, merely so you can disparage them for not trying to break out of it?

 

[Sugarpova]

But he doesn't want to be Elvis. He's never wanted to be Elvis. Why should he? He's better than that.

he should skate to Elvis!:agree: (if he hasnt already)