2016 Autumn Classic Men's Free Skate

[Violet Bliss]

Thanks for this VB.

I'm struggling with the way the Ref handled it.

In my, albeit limited, experience at the music and announcing end of the stand, we would have been looking to the Ref for a decision to stop the music as soon as he stopped, pulled up his pant and pantomimed pulling st his laces and looked for a signal.

In this case, I was wondering if the Ref wasn't concerned to be transparently fair and waited for him to skate over to the stand as indicated in the rule. But it didn't take him 40 seconds to get to the stand, and the music just kept going and wasn't returned to the correct point.

And some say Hanyu suffers unfair treatment competing in Canada. This Canadian skater certainly didn't fare any better.

 

[Khoai]

Except 4everchan didn't say anything like your "examples". His words

His/her words are insults to the composer all the same.

I think it's a well qualified (grammatically) statement and not dismissive of Hanyu.

Except that I did not talk about Mr. Hanyu and his music.

As to your prediction of his future unequivocal praise of Patrick's LP music, be informed that 4everhan is an equal opportunity music purist/snob. He is reserving judgement on Eric Radford's composition, but, IIRC, has categorized it as elevator music from a few seconds sampled. I have to wait to see if he would call it really good elevator music like Hanyu's..

It is sarcasm about his/her biased tone all the same.

Everybody here, including yourself, judges figure skating without bothering with qualifications. Some even consider themselves the ultimate authorities having the final say about skaters and their performances.

But most people here do not go around telling people from time to time that "I am a musician so in my opinion this is cheap music."

 

[HanDomi]

I actually thought 86 was quite reasonable for that FS. I'm not a fan save for the last minute or so - not like last year's program which immediately captivated me. And he didn't seem committed (the arms in particular were noticeably lazy/sloppy) or comfortable with it (I'm sure the errors were not helping). I mean, come on.. The guy has 4 errors including two falls, so-so quality of spins (please get rid of the butt spin Yuzu!), and just an okay performance elsewhere, and people are expecting 90 PCS?!

As for saying he came unprepared (a la Trump), that's too harsh -- remember, he still did 2 quads and 2 triple axels, and landed the 4L in both programs. I also notice he's getting more into his edges. He's got miles to go but this was a solid effort at this point in the season at a competition that didn't have any stakes.

Really love his SP and when he's more comfortable and commits more to it I can totally picture him emulating Prince to the t. The white outfit is a bit WWHT, but it IS Prince, so I think it arguably suits Prince's eccentricity. Love the colours/gradient of his LP outfit, but could do without the shredded white fabric over his shoulder.

If it's about me I am definitely not saying he should get higher PCS. I think everyone agree here that was not yet performance on a level that he can be. That will come later in season. I think he is prepared in terms of jump technique, he was nailing those quads in practices like nothing, but it's visible that he doesn't have stamina yet. Long time out of traning didn't helped for sure, but some training and it will come

 

[Mrs. P]

So I decided to forgo the men's event so i could catch up with some friends, so just starting to watch the programs one at a time. I watched Hanyu first.

I think this is a good program for him. I think this is exactly the sort of program he needs to do at this point of his career. We know he can do passionate, powerful pieces -- this one -- as the music is more gentle --forces him to work on things like extension and posture (and to hold his moves more), but yet the music I think is still pretty powerful and passionate, it's just that he doesn't have the stamina and extension to pull it off perfectly yet.

This is going to be interesting to see how he will balance working on the program's choreography while trying to pull off four quads in a program.

ETA: Since my post is still the last post, Max Aaron next (watching in FS ranking order).

I think the replacement of the second cut was great. It's actually my favorite part of the program cause there's some fun playful choreography and I can see Max's personality. However, I'd like to see the program have more cohesion. To me it felt like the first part was the "jumping" part where he was focused on getting enough speed to pull off the quads... then the new section was the performance part into the step sequence and then the third part was -- oh hey I have a few more jumping passes left (though there was more choreography then at the first part).

In any case, much improved from Lombardia.

 

[TGee]

If it's about me I am definitely not saying he should get higher PCS. I think everyone agree here that was not yet performance on a level that he can be. That will come later in season. I think he is prepared in terms of jump technique, he was nailing those quads in practices like nothing, but it's visible that he doesn't have stamina yet. Long time out of traning didn't helped for sure, but some training and it will come

Hi Handomi,

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and put something out to you because you seem to be a fairminded supporter of Yusu and other Japanese skaters.....

Is there a possibility that Canadians (and potentially Russians) may have a difference in perspective on PCS due the fact Canada is strong in 4 skating disciplines, while Ice Dance has not reached the same level in Japan as singles freeskate? Are we genuinely seeing things differently?

Skating skills benefit so much from ice dance training right from the lowest levels, especially now that figures are no longer compulsory. My understanding is that a large proportion of higher level singles skaters in Canada now join in the regular stroking training that is in place for the competitive ice dancers in their clubs.

Toronto Cricket isn't a club currently focussing on elite ice dance, but Tracy Wilson reportedly ensures that all the freeskaters have solid skating skills. Lubov Ilyushechkina recently commented in an interview that, despite having been a coach herself, and having skated for over 20 years, Tracy is still working with her to improve her basic cross cuts. So, your comment that Yuzu's PCS usually rises through the season with increasing training seems in line with that.

BTW in my experience, difference in skating skills is noticeable when one attends in person. I happened to live in the US some years back and had the chance to attend an ice show with high level skaters from different countries. A few Canadians were performing. Even in the warm up, I was really surprised by how much silkier and fast the Canadians moved, and they were silent, while the squeaks and scratches of the other freeskaters was noticeable. I hadn't expected it to be that obvious, especially at that level.

 

[Tavi...]

His/her words are insults to the composer all the same.


Except that I did not talk about Mr. Hanyu and his music.


It is sarcasm about his/her biased tone all the same.


But most people here do not go around telling people from time to time that "I am a musician so in my opinion this is cheap music."

I'm sorry but I think you are over reacting. Everyone, musician or not, has the right to like or not like music. The fact that Mr Hisaichi is a well known composer doesn't mean that everyone is going to like his compositions. What I took from 4everchan's comment was that he thought the music was pretty but forgettable. You may disagree, but it's his opinion, and he has a right to it. It seems as if you found the phrase "elevator music" particularly insulting, but it's generally used as "shorthand" and if you remember, 4everchan was giving his impressions of all the men he saw skate, not doing a detailed musical analysis of the music Hanyu used for his free skate.

 

[HanDomi]

Hi Handomi,

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and put something out to you because you seem to be a fairminded supporter of Yusu and other Japanese skaters.....

Is there a possibility that Canadians (and potentially Russians) may have a difference in perspective on PCS due the fact Canada is strong in 4 skating disciplines, while Ice Dance has not reached the same level in Japan as singles freeskate? Are we genuinely seeing things differently?

Skating skills benefit so much from ice dance training right from the lowest levels, especially now that figures are no longer compulsory. My understanding is that a large proportion of higher level singles skaters in Canada now join in the regular stroking training that is in place for the competitive ice dancers in their clubs.

Toronto Cricket isn't a club currently focussing on elite ice dance, but Tracy Wilson reportedly ensures that all the freeskaters have solid skating skills. Lubov Ilyushechkina recently commented in an interview that, despite having been a coach herself, and having skated for over 20 years, Tracy is still working with her to improve her basic cross cuts. So, your comment that Yuzu's PCS usually rises through the season with increasing training seems in line with that.

BTW in my experience, difference in skating skills is noticeable when one attends in person. I happened to live in the US some years back and had the chance to attend an ice show with high level skaters from different countries. A few Canadians were performing. Even in the warm up, I was really surprised by how much silkier and fast the Canadians moved, and they were silent, while the squeaks and scratches of the other freeskaters was noticeable. I hadn't expected it to be that obvious, especially at that level.

I was thinking more about conditioning progress trough season. Here he was basically done half way trough program, he started to loose posture, his legs were very heavy after quad attempts , he was loosing speed so it affects SS mark too. But it was the same last season comparing autumn classic -> nhk progress

 

[Khoai]

I'm sorry but I think you are over reacting. Everyone, musician or not, has the right to like or not like music. The fact that Mr Hisaichi is a well known composer doesn't mean that everyone is going to like his compositions. What I took from 4everchan's comment was that he thought the music was pretty but forgettable. You may disagree, but it's his opinion, and he has a right to it. It seems as if you found the phrase "elevator music" particularly insulting, but it's generally used as "shorthand" and if you remember, 4everchan was giving his impressions of all the men he saw skate, not doing a detailed musical analysis of the music Hanyu used for his free skate.

It's Hisaishi, not Hisaichi.
And I did not say people have to like his music. I do not like his music either.
He/She often mentions from time to time "I am a musician" whenever he/She talks about his/her preference of music. I find it obnoxious. Whatever your defend is, it does not change that it is an obnoxious remarks about music.
I think most of Prince's songs is boring, but it is not because I am a musician, it is because personally I find it boring.

 

[Tavi...]

It's Hisaishi, not Hisaichi.
And I did not say people have to like his music. I do not like his music either.
He/She often mentions from time to time "I am a musician" whenever he/She talks about his/her preference of music. I find it obnoxious. Whatever your defend is, it does not change that it is an obnoxious remarks about music.
I think most of Prince's songs is boring, but it is not because I am a musician, it is because personally I find it boring.

I apologize for the misspelling. I disagree that 4everchan's comments are "obnoxious" or that referencing the fact he's a musician is obnoxious but you're entitled to your opinions.

 

[TGee]

I was thinking more about conditioning progress trough season. Here he was basically done half way trough program, he started to loose posture, his legs were very heavy after quad attempts , he was loosing speed so it affects SS mark too. But it was the same last season comparing autumn classic -> nhk progress

Thanks...

Conditioning is definitely an enormous factor. But it's not just an off-ice activity.

I'd like to note that skaters training in competitive ice dance do an intense 20-30 minute workout 4-5 times a week in what's called stroking class in the ice dance focussed clubs here. I only watch occasionally but it's incredibly riveting. Wish some TV program would cover this. I think it would change folks impressions of ice dance as a sport.

My understanding is that Zoueva's school in Canton is on this model also. Can't say about other US programs as much has changed since I was there. Stroking class develops cardiovascular capacity and endurance as well as skating skills.

 

[unico]

Hi Handomi,

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and put something out to you because you seem to be a fairminded supporter of Yusu and other Japanese skaters.....

Is there a possibility that Canadians (and potentially Russians) may have a difference in perspective on PCS due the fact Canada is strong in 4 skating disciplines, while Ice Dance has not reached the same level in Japan as singles freeskate? Are we genuinely seeing things differently?

Skating skills benefit so much from ice dance training right from the lowest levels, especially now that figures are no longer compulsory. My understanding is that a large proportion of higher level singles skaters in Canada now join in the regular stroking training that is in place for the competitive ice dancers in their clubs.

Toronto Cricket isn't a club currently focussing on elite ice dance, but Tracy Wilson reportedly ensures that all the freeskaters have solid skating skills. Lubov Ilyushechkina recently commented in an interview that, despite having been a coach herself, and having skated for over 20 years, Tracy is still working with her to improve her basic cross cuts. So, your comment that Yuzu's PCS usually rises through the season with increasing training seems in line with that.

BTW in my experience, difference in skating skills is noticeable when one attends in person. I happened to live in the US some years back and had the chance to attend an ice show with high level skaters from different countries. A few Canadians were performing. Even in the warm up, I was really surprised by how much silkier and fast the Canadians moved, and they were silent, while the squeaks and scratches of the other freeskaters was noticeable. I hadn't expected it to be that obvious, especially at that level.

I can name off two top Canadian skaters with comparatively weaker skating skills: Kevin Reynolds and Nam Nguyen. All the current top Japanese skaters have wonderful knees and deep edges and it's evident even with their juniors. Traditionally with Japan that seems to be the case even without popularity in Ice Dance... Rika Hongo is maybe one of the weaker ones. I don't think there's any national pattern to behold here.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It's Hisaishi, not Hisaichi.
And I did not say people have to like his music. I do not like his music either.
He/She often mentions from time to time "I am a musician" whenever he/She talks about his/her preference of music. I find it obnoxious. Whatever your defend is, it does not change that it is an obnoxious remarks about music.
I think most of Prince's songs is boring, but it is not because I am a musician, it is because personally I find it boring.

So, as long as it's just based on personal opinions, it's not obnoxious to insult, bash, and slander others like what is regularly done to some skaters, and maybe posters you just dislike personally?

 

[Khoai]

So, as long as it's just based on personal opinions, it's not obnoxious to insult, bash, and slander others like what is regularly done to some skaters, and maybe posters you just dislike personally?

It's one thing to say 'I don't like this music, because I presonally find it boring and repetative'

And it's another thing to say 'I'm a musician, I know what a real music is and what is just a filler'

It's like she/he tells that he/she knows better than other people because he/she musician. He/she slams music left and right many times.

This is music, there is no right or wrong, you like or you do not like it. To call yourself a musician and slam some music as cheap and filler is obnoxious.

 

[TGee]

I can name off two top Canadian skaters with comparatively weaker skating skills: Kevin Reynolds and Nam Nguyen. All the current top Japanese skaters have wonderful knees and deep edges and it's evident even with their juniors. Traditionally with Japan that seems to be the case even without popularity in Ice Dance... Rika Hongo is maybe one of the weaker ones. I don't think there's any national pattern to behold here.

Hi unicorn,

I definitely agree that there is a great deal of variation within countries.

I can't comment on Nam as I last saw him in person as a Junior, but agree that Kevin's skating skills could really be strengthened. But you will find no lack of comments within Canada expressing a desire for Kevin to work more on those. And his PCS tends to come from other things than SS. But he'd had a hip issue and boot problems so it's been hard to know what to attribute lack of progress to.

Great to hear that the Japanese juniors are strong in skills, my question was whether there might be a gap with the figures training falling away, or whether the prevalence of ice dance here gives us a different way of seeing?

Considering things along the lines of 4everchan's comments that are raising so much concern, I'm thinking that the way we are trained forms the way we perceive...not to put down others' ways of seeing (or hearing). But just to say it affects how we perceive.

I'm trying to ask the question whether we are sincerely perceiving things in a different way. If we do "see" differently, it's not a matter of unfairness or bias, but something that the international judging community would need to sort out.

 

[4everchan]

For me it was not Yuzu's pcs that were too high, but Misha's that were too low. 4everchan, what did you think about Misha's speed? It seemed to me that though everything was done neatly and visibly clean, on the live feed he seemed to be going slow-ish till that last burst of speed at the end and also backing into his jumps carefully without too many transitions. Loved the way it ended though. It was a great building of music and Misha Drama.
The one that seemed fastest to me out of the last group was Keegan.
Daniel is all drama and no substance to me, in contrast to Misha. I know he can do much better. When he does his programs and his jumps work out, it has impact.

Max was such a plesant surprise, I caught myself smiling through that program. It's a winner. The shirt is hillarious with the muscles spray-painted on.

In the last group, the one who really was bringing it home was Keegan. Yuzu, well we know him, it is early in his process after the injury. He had brilliant moments but didn't have a LP of quality yet in him... Still, I am sure we all agree that he is above the others. Misha, he was slow and extremely cautious going into his jumps. Some people complain about pairs telegraphing throws, well, Misha was like : ladies and gentlemen, here is my triple axel and as you know he speaks at lest 3 languages and had time to say it in all the languages he speaks before the jump would happen. Very little flow out of them too... WHAT WAS AMAZING with Misha, and finally, when he started having flow and speed was the last minute or so of his program. He was flying over the ice and the skating was indeed beautiful. Maybe his PCS reflect the 3/4 of his program or also that the nutcracker ballet idea wasn't conveyed enough. If I had to pick over watching Misha or Daniel skate again : Misha by a landslide, no hesitation. I know it wasn't Daniel's best, but I didn't get a positive feeling from his skating. I would suggest he switches environment to go with a team of coaches focused on basic skating and choreography. He will land the jumps and has done so in the past. He is extremely powerful but this program looked like power skating... go to the end of the rink, pop a jump and go to the other side, land a quad and go to the other side, etc.

Max is an odd cookie. I have a like-dislike relationship with him. There were some really good moves in his program. But in general he was a bit slower and stiffer than the other guys. I thought he was pretty well rewarded here as some of his big elements lacked quality. However, it's hard not to like what he brings to skating because he is different and after seeing 15 guys, it's nice to see other styles.

 

[4everchan]

you are hilarious. I have already expressed concern about Patrick's potentially elevator music in the fan fest.

I am not saying that because I am a musician i have the right to judge some music.... I am simply saying that what can look perfectly beautiful to some, looks simplistic to others who live in that field. It's not a question of judgment just of refined taste.

Once Mr Patrick Chan's free skate come out with another kind of elevator music composed by Mr. Eric Radford, you will say: "Oh this music should get a grammy".

Coming from a family of musicians, this comment irks me the wrong way. "Because I am a musician... I have the rights to judge some music."

"Because I am a writer, this book is a trash to me."

"As I am a designer, this design is totally crap."

Great contribution.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It's one thing to say 'I don't like this music, because I presonally find it boring and repetative'

And it's another thing to say 'I'm a musician, I know what a real music is and what is just a filler'

It's like she/he tells that he/she knows better than other people because he/she musician. He/she slams music left and right many times.

This is music, there is no right or wrong, you like or you do not like it. To call yourself a musician and slam some music as cheap and filler is obnoxious.

The reason I try to reason with you is that putting words into someone's mouth according to negative impression and interpretation is what is frequently done to skaters too. 4everchan usually qualifies his comments as based on his personal preferences as a musician, as probably more sensitive or nitpicking than most. He does not unequivocally call some music right or wrong or cheap, or that only his opinion is right and others have to agree with them.

I will stop this argument now and just hope there will be less word twisting against skaters and posters.

 

[4everchan]

well-known or not has no incidence for me in terms of liking music. Franz Liszt a very well-known classical music composer is also on my list of ERM....

I also appreciate other music from other genres. Film music. Jazz... But honestly, I didn't like what I heard in Yuzu's soundtrack. You may be correct, once the program performed as expected, it may be better but it was difficult yesterday to look at an exhausted skater, skating on that kind of music that is soft and has very little power or emotion.

Well, musician or not, while I get not liking this type of music, Joe Hisaishi as he is better known (or Fujisawa Mamoru) is a well known composer and it is kind of really offensive to call it elevator music. The LP music is a combo of his View of Silence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-GPay8lSZs
and Asian dream song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiEyKrUl5yQ

As I said, I totally get not liking it, tastes and all, and I am still not used to the cut they made and I don't think Yuzuru is expressing it well right now, except perhaps during the first two minutes or so considering the issues. One thing about Hisaishi's music for me is that he allows the story to speak for itself. I think this is where Yuzuru needs to do more in order to truly work with Hisaishi's pieces. Anyway, elevator music it is not.
(for anyone not familiar with him check out the Budokan concert, some of my favourite pieces were done there, the man is a master https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9mGQU7rGGM)

One important point for me in Yuzuru's choice of music is that it is a famous Asian composer. I am very happy new people are being introduced to it (whether they end up liking it or not). BTW, Elizabet Tursynbayeva's FS is also to his music.



Thank you very much for the rest of the report! I was wondering if he looked exhausted live too because he looked knackered on my screen and the jumps seemed to go as a consequence of that. I do think it'll settle down and he'll be able to express more as he gets a hold of it.

Thanks for talking about Misha too, I loved both his programs so was curious to see how it looked like live. I'm glad you had fun!

 

[4everchan]

please watch your language

There is no such thing as music purist. Either you are an obnoxious musician or not, that is all.

Adding to clarify : i've never been trying to convince others about their musical taste. I am not imposing my preferences on others. However,lets say you'd ask a vegetarian how they like their steak, you'd be understanding if they said, I'm vegetarian I dont eat dead animals. I dont listen to this kind of music for similar reasons but I am not preaching

 

[ice coverage]

... I'm struggling with the way the Ref handled it.

In my, albeit limited, experience at the music and announcing end of the stand, we would have been looking to the Ref for a decision to stop the music as soon as he stopped, pulled up his pant and pantomimed pulling st his laces and looked for a signal.

In this case, I was wondering if the Ref wasn't concerned to be transparently fair and waited for him to skate over to the stand as indicated in the rule. But it didn't take him 40 seconds to get to the stand, and the music just kept going and wasn't returned to the correct point.

Just my two cents (and I am not a skater), but I think you are misunderstanding the rules.
The way I read the rules, they basically were followed.

(Disclaimer: I have nothing against Keegan, and indeed I am sad that he had bad luck last night.)

The rules say that the music will continue playing, unless a 5.0 deduction is applied for an interruption exceeding forty seconds.
The forty seconds is counted from the time when the skater stops performing to the time when the skater resumes performing.

B/c quickly retying his lace was the solution to Keegan's issue, I think(??) he would have been better off not reporting to the Ref -- to reduce the duration of the interruption. Easy for me to say in hindsight, of course.
If he had resumed performing after thirty seconds, the deduction would have been "only" 2.0 instead if 3.0. And if he had resumed performing after twenty seconds, the deduction would have been "only" 1.0.

http://static.isu.org/media/1018/sandp-deduction-chart-2016.pdf​

(If his issue had been something more major that would need more than forty seconds to rectify, then the rules do require reporting to the Ref.)

In the video below, looks to me as if Keegan stops performing at approx. 2:45. After re-tying his lace, he gave a thumbs-up at approx. 3:29. Is back into skating the program by approx. 3:42.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9quuDs4kDjw​

My question/concern from viewing the video is that when Keegan did speak to the ref, I wonder whether she explained his options to him.
The option with lower deductions was for the music not to be re-started, in which case he should have tried to resume performing ASAP, with every second counting.
The other option was the 5.0 deduction, in which case the music would be re-started after an interruption as long as an additional three minutes after reporting to the ref.
Keegan seems to believe that the plan is to re-start the program where/when he left off. At approx. 3:36, he looks at the ref while pointing at the position where he stopped, and then skates back to it. At approx. 3:41, he signals as if to indicate that he is ready for the music to be re-started (not realizing that it is not going to be re-started).

For convenience, I have re-copied some of the ISU language below (emphases added):

a) If the adverse conditions can be remedied without delay and the Competitor/s resumes skating his/their program without reporting to the Referee, the Referee will apply a deduction for interruption as per Rule 353, paragraph 1.n) depending on the duration of the interruption. This time period commences immediately after the Competitor/s stops performing the program or is ordered to do so by the Referee, whichever is earlier. During this time period, the Competitor’s music will continue playing. If the Competitor/s does not resume skating his/their program within forty (40) seconds, he/they shall be considered withdrawn;

b) If the adverse conditions cannot be remedied without delay and the Competitor/s reports to the Referee within forty (40) seconds, the Referee will allow an additional up to three (3) minutes period for the Competitor/s to resume skating. Then the Referee commands to stop the music. The additional time period commences at the moment the Competitor/s reports to the Referee. The Referee will apply a deduction as per Rule 353, paragraph 1.n) for the whole interruption. If the Competitor/s does not report to the Referee within forty (40) seconds or does not resume skating his/their program within the additional three (3) minutes period, he/they shall be considered withdrawn.

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...s-Free-Skate&p=1497948&viewfull=1#post1497948​