2016 Autumn Classic Men's Free Skate

[4everchan]

I think I should hire you if ever i need a lawyer. :agree:

Except 4everchan didn't say anything like your "examples". His words are:



I think it's a well qualified (grammatically) statement and not dismissive of Hanyu. As to your prediction of his future unequivocal praise of Patrick's LP music, be informed that 4everhan is an equal opportunity music purist/snob. He is reserving judgement on Eric Radford's composition, but, IIRC, has categorized it as elevator music from a few seconds sampled. I have to wait to see if he would call it really good elevator music like Hanyu's.

As for

Everybody here, including yourself, judges figure skating without bothering with qualifications. Some even consider themselves the ultimate authorities having the final say about skaters and their performances.

 

[4everchan]

fans at the event LOVED YUZU!!! Not just the Japanese fans. I was sitting next to a teenager who was there alone and waited all day to see Yuzu. His mom kept calling him to pick him up from the venue. And he was Mom, this is YUZU!! I am not getting out of here before I see him on the podium. Don't call me. I will call you !

Canadian fans are very supportive. They loved EVERYONE!

Sydney Rose, I'm Canadian and spend much of the week at a relatively high level club where our kids train. Hear the gossip, and have never, ever heard a smidgen of what you report your Canadian friends having claimed.

While folks are exasperated that Canadian world champions seem to have an issue at the Olympics, if there was frustration at the judging at Sochi it wasn't in the men's event.

I don't hear about an anti Yuzu spirit here at all. In fact, what I hear is cheering for skaters from other countries, with Yuzu one among many, that train in Canada. It may be difficult to hear the Canadian voices in Yuzu or Javier's fan fests given their global popularity, but check out some of the others training in Canada and you'll see we're cheering for them.

Folks have wondered over the years if certain skaters and teams might be better off training at one of the Canadian elite centres rather than in the US. But there is recognition that fit is important and cost has been an issue. When the Canadian dollar was high, training in the US was less expensive, now it's the opposite. Canadians are very aware of this.

Also just wanted to add : the sparkle in the eyes of this boy after Yuzu's performance was incredibly sweet. This teenager had lived a special moment : seeing his idol land some gorgeous and big jumps etc. It reminded me the feeling I had when I was in Vancouver for the O games and Canada won the hockey gold medal game as people went to the streets to celebrate... I am sure this boy will remember his experience for the rest of his life, and who knows, maybe he will become the next Yuzu

 

[Mrs. P]

Misha Ge: Regarding the zayak, I feel like there was likely a 4T in there and then they took it out and forgot to replace one of the 3Z (since that's his weaker jump as he gets an occasional call on the edge) into a 2A. This happened to him at one of his GPs in 2014, IIRC.

I have mixed feelings about this program. I like that Misha is trying something new -- for him -- given that he tends to do super extroverted programs and this isn't one. But other than the end, I feel like he's devoid of any sort of distinction; it feels like another Nutcracker program. Maybe as he gets used to the program, we'll see him shine a little bit more?

That said, I do appreciate the attempt to improve his extension and posture. I'd like to see some more choreography -- I agree with 4everchan that he telegraphs big time, especially on his 3As.

 

[matmuh]

Misha Ge: Regarding the zayak, I feel like there was likely a 4T in there and then they took it out and forgot to replace one of the 3Z (since that's his weaker jump as he gets an occasional call on the edge) into a 2A. This happened to him at one of his GPs in 2014, IIRC.

I have mixed feelings about this program. I like that Misha is trying something new -- for him -- given that he tends to do super extroverted programs and this isn't one. But other than the end, I feel like he's devoid of any sort of distinction; it feels like another Nutcracker program. Maybe as he gets used to the program, we'll see him shine a little bit more?

That said, I do appreciate the attempt to improve his extension and posture. I'd like to see some more choreography -- I agree with 4everchan that he telegraphs big time, especially on his 3As.

yeah, it was COC thats why i was kinda surprised he did the same mistake here, at COC his planned content included 4t as well according to commentators but changed his mind, same thing happened here i think

 

[Yatagarasu]

But honestly, I didn't like what I heard in Yuzu's soundtrack. You may be correct, once the program performed as expected, it may be better but it was difficult yesterday to look at an exhausted skater, skating on that kind of music that is soft and has very little power or emotion.

I reacted because your post was a - the music lacks quality - post. That's not the same as not liking it, which I have absolutely no issues with and I wouldn't have said anything, no matter who the composer. I don't like Handel but I don't dispute his place.


For this particular program, I do think it's going to be important to wait for him to settle into it. Of course it may be that you won't enjoy it even in that case but for me, Hisaishi's music works best in the symbiosis with the story. Yuzuru said yesterday that this was the first time he felt the music while he was skating the program and I am not surprised considering he had the new ankle injury and very few FS run throughs, but I find this to be pretty significant and in that light especially, combined with the stamina, I do think his expression will only get better.

Considering he took another dive yesterday, off ice, I really want to wrap this kid up in bubble wrap sometimes Hopefully he is all right and can work on this so that already in a month's time we might see an improved version.

 

[skylark]

Hanyu got 86 PCS which is quite lower compared to what he often got (from 92 to 98). If anything, I'd say in Canada they always judge Yuzuru harsher than others.

Hanyu pcs was actually quite low, but he is always judged this way in Canada But I don't have problem with that score. That's early in the season, and this is not yet on level that he propably will be later in the season

I don't keep track of Hanyu's scores from different competitions. I was actually comparing the PC scores that Hanyu got in comparison to the PC scores of Misha Ge. I think there should have not been so much difference. I was only looking at this particular competition.

But I may not have been clear on this point in the post you both quoted, so my apologies for lack of clarity. You probably hadn't read my comments earlier in this thread so how would you know.

Someone ... another big Hanyu fan, I'm pretty sure ... had said earlier in the thread that they didn't think Yuzuru felt happy winning competitions if he himself didn't feel he had skated his best. So that's the issue I was addressing. I was actually expressing one of my problems with the scoring system, not criticizing Hanyu. I'm sure you're right that this program will rise to new heights as the season goes on. That would be in line with what Yuzuru usually does.

 

[unico]

Hi unicorn,

I definitely agree that there is a great deal of variation within countries.

I can't comment on Nam as I last saw him in person as a Junior, but agree that Kevin's skating skills could really be strengthened. But you will find no lack of comments within Canada expressing a desire for Kevin to work more on those. And his PCS tends to come from other things than SS. But he'd had a hip issue and boot problems so it's been hard to know what to attribute lack of progress to.

Great to hear that the Japanese juniors are strong in skills, my question was whether there might be a gap with the figures training falling away, or whether the prevalence of ice dance here gives us a different way of seeing?

Considering things along the lines of 4everchan's comments that are raising so much concern, I'm thinking that the way we are trained forms the way we perceive...not to put down others' ways of seeing (or hearing). But just to say it affects how we perceive.

I'm trying to ask the question whether we are sincerely perceiving things in a different way. If we do "see" differently, it's not a matter of unfairness or bias, but something that the international judging community would need to sort out.

Sorry, I guess I'm not really understanding your question. Is it that Canadians view PCS in a different way than Japanese fans, or Russian fans, particularly that they value skating skills more because of the strong basis in Ice Dance? I mean there's cultural values that come into play, skating experience and values, and then further than that personal values, all of which make judges and fans appreciate and understand things differently. Skating skills/stroking classes exist within every sort of popular skating program, and certain coaches like Mie Hamada and the Sato family have a very strong emphasis on basics just like Tracy Wilson or Brian Orser. I think everything comes down to the individual coach/skaters/fan/judge, I don't see differences in value as something that needs to be addressed by the international judging community, I think it's important in order for the sport to be more diverse.

 

[mrrice]

please watch your language
Adding a clarify : i'm never been to convince others about their musical taste. I am not imposing my preferences on others. However,lets say you'd ask a vegetarian how they like their steak, you'd be understanding if they said, I'm vegetarian I dont eat dead animals. I dont listen to this kind of music for similar reasons but I am not preaching

This is a weird area for me. I was trained in Classical Ballet and was a professional Vocalist for many years. As most of you know. However.......I have done some embarrassing things to make money when times were hard. I remember being so uncomfortable wearing the outfit I wore in this video for "Love Of A Lifetime" By Chaka Kahn, that I didn't tell my friends I was in it until they saw and asked me about it. You can't miss me. I'm wearing a hideous blue "Tank Short" combo made of spandex

You can see me for 2, count em, 2 seconds in close up at 41-43 seconds and a couple of other times later on. My hair is frightening and very 80's. Worst of all, they made me wear "Sun Glasses At Night" Remember that song 40 something's ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-WG0hlS9Ac

 

[TGee]

Sorry, I guess I'm not really understanding your question. Is it that Canadians view PCS in a different way than Japanese fans, or Russian fans, particularly that they value skating skills more because of the strong basis in Ice Dance? I mean there's cultural values that come into play, skating experience and values, and then further than that personal values, all of which make judges and fans appreciate and understand things differently. Skating skills/stroking classes exist within every sort of popular skating program, and certain coaches like Mie Hamada and the Sato family have a very strong emphasis on basics just like Tracy Wilson or Brian Orser. I think everything comes down to the individual coach/skaters/fan/judge, I don't see differences in value as something that needs to be addressed by the international judging community, I think it's important in order for the sport to be more diverse.

Hi unico,

I guess I was thinking both. Different training regimes leads to different strengths, and that training and focusing on other disciplines creates differences in perception.

I'm not as convinced that it all ends up the same in training.... In Canada, even at lower competitive levels one can see (and hear) the differences across clubs. In competition, one notices that the kids from clubs with strong ice dance programs usually have better skating skills and transitions in their freeskate programs. Sometimes they end up on the top of the podium because of it, despite missing a jump element. But I don't hear grumbling about PCS inflation. Good skating skills are just one part of a gold performance.

 

[melmel]

You look like an adorable dancing smurf

This is a weird area for me. I was trained in Classical Ballet and was a professional Vocalist for many years. As most of you know. However.......I have done some embarrassing things to make money when times were hard. I remember being so uncomfortable wearing the outfit I wore in this video for "Love Of A Lifetime" By Chaka Kahn, that I didn't tell my friends I was in it until they saw and asked me about it. You can't miss me. I'm wearing a hideous blue "Tank Short" combo made of spandex

You can see me for 2, count em, 2 seconds in close up at 41-43 seconds and a couple of other times later on. My hair is frightening and very 80's. Worst of all, they made me wear "Sun Glasses At Night" Remember that song 40 something's ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-WG0hlS9Ac

 

[mrrice]

You look like an adorable dancing smurf

That's exactly what my friends called me........Chocolate Smurf!!!!!! :disapp: Thanks a lot!!

 

[Violet Bliss]

Any more recent dancing video to show us, Chocolate Smurf?

 

[unico]

Hi unico,

I guess I was thinking both. Different training regimes leads to different strengths, and that training and focusing on other disciplines creates differences in perception.

I'm not as convinced that it all ends up the same in training.... In Canada, even at lower competitive levels one can see (and hear) the differences across clubs. In competition, one notices that the kids from clubs with strong ice dance programs usually have better skating skills and transitions in their freeskate programs. Sometimes they end up on the top of the podium because of it, despite missing a jump element. But I don't hear grumbling about PCS inflation. Good skating skills are just one part of a gold performance.

I think I'm going to have to back out of this question respectfully, sorry I don't think I see what's at contention here. I agree that Ice Dance programs help develop strong skating skills, but I think Japan, where Ice Dance is not so strong, is proof that it really depends on the values of the training camp and expertise of the staff to impart good skating skills through figures and normal stroking lessons. Perhaps you're looking for more concrete data, but I don't think it's a difference between "Ice Dance nations" (or clubs) vs "non-Ice Dance nations". Complaints of PCS inflation are natural because of different values (and not just because of skating skills, see arguments for/against Javier Fernandez), and so are arguments against PCS inflation, but that's the beauty of the sport, that it is multi-faceted and diverse in appeal.

 

[mrrice]

Any more recent dancing video to show us, Chocolate Smurf?

Recent....The last "On Camera" job I auditioned for was "Sister Act 2" When my agent told me that I was deemed to old to for the part. I went to college and then straight into the studio and became a back up singer. I stayed in the studio until 1997. That's when I took a Job singing for Coca Cola and went on a tour that lasted almost a decade. After that, I worked and finished my BA at CSUN as a Choreographer for the Marching Band. That's when I met Bebe Liang. She's a great Musician and she was in one of the orchestra's. I'll look for something I did with CSUN. BRB

This is me when I was Captain and director of the Winterguard at CSUN in 1992. I was the oldest Captain they ever had and was not going to do it until they offered to give me a full ride for doing it, so I said yes. I always said that my life was backwards. I had been in Videos, TV, and sung for EWF, before I ever spent a day in college.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FCCbLtkJE

By the way. Our music is "Dreams" by Van Halen. I have always wanted Max use this music as it's powerful and inspirational.

 

[4everchan]

i adored Keegan... I was heartbroken LIVE .. to see what he managed to do while losing a huge portion of time speaks about his determination and good training. His coaches seemed very disappointed with the ruling to say the least.

Ok you guys, I finally forced myself to watch Keegan and I knew it would make me sad and I was right. He was doing so well and I'm just heart broken for him. You guys in Canada have seen a lot of Keegan but I feel like I haven't seen him in a long time. He has improved by a MILE from his days as the Hulk. He is absolutely on the right track with his programs and I hope he doesn't take this too hard. I loved it Keegan, and I'll be watching VERY closely for the remainder of the season......:sad21:

 

[4everchan]

i'd say that perhaps yuzu performs early in the season in canada when he's not as ready with programs so it's a question of timing not location

Hanyu got 86 PCS which is quite lower compared to what he often got (from 92 to 98). If anything, I'd say in Canada they always judge Yuzuru harsher than others.

 

[4everchan]

i wasn't at the practices. In the warm up, he wasn't hitting everything though. I think it's a bit of both: the program being really new to him, and of course, after a couple minutes, the stamina. In those circumstances, it's normal he was having a bit of doubt in his head prior to skating, and not being 100% confident prevents also from performing well. The quad loop was ready, he knew that. That was his most beautiful jump in the warm-up and WAY more beautiful than the one in the program. But I don't remember seeing him land a quad toe in the warm up. Maybe someone else does? I was also looking at other skaters in the warm up. Max for instance, had a better FP than his warm up indicated.

If it's about me I am definitely not saying he should get higher PCS. I think everyone agree here that was not yet performance on a level that he can be. That will come later in season. I think he is prepared in terms of jump technique, he was nailing those quads in practices like nothing, but it's visible that he doesn't have stamina yet. Long time out of traning didn't helped for sure, but some training and it will come

 

[Krunchii]

Hi unicorn,

I definitely agree that there is a great deal of variation within countries.

I can't comment on Nam as I last saw him in person as a Junior, but agree that Kevin's skating skills could really be strengthened. But you will find no lack of comments within Canada expressing a desire for Kevin to work more on those. And his PCS tends to come from other things than SS. But he'd had a hip issue and boot problems so it's been hard to know what to attribute lack of progress to.

Great to hear that the Japanese juniors are strong in skills, my question was whether there might be a gap with the figures training falling away, or whether the prevalence of ice dance here gives us a different way of seeing?

Considering things along the lines of 4everchan's comments that are raising so much concern, I'm thinking that the way we are trained forms the way we perceive...not to put down others' ways of seeing (or hearing). But just to say it affects how we perceive.

I'm trying to ask the question whether we are sincerely perceiving things in a different way. If we do "see" differently, it's not a matter of unfairness or bias, but something that the international judging community would need to sort out.

Nam Nguyen and Kevin Reynolds come from Joanne McLeod in Vancouver so I'm guessing their training is different from skaters who skate in Toronto. From what I've been told by my friend, who's a coach in Toronto, they work on a lot of basic stroking in single skaters due to Osborne Colson's influence. During his coaching career he made his students including Patrick Chan work on basic stroking before every lesson/practice no matter how tedious it was and it obviously paid off. So even coaches from my friend who's at the "bottom" to coaches like Tracy Wilson/Brian Orser also emphasize it now.

 

[Violet Bliss]

i'd say that perhaps yuzu performs early in the season in canada when he's not as ready with programs so it's a question of timing not location

This fact may be too simple and logical for the over zealous and the conspiracists.

If he received his normal 92-98 in PCS with this performance, what will satisfy and pacify them at, say, NHK or GPF? Unless he indisputably peaked at AC or SC Fortunately Yuzuru is not a early bloomer.

 

[karne]

Sorry karne but I thought, if I don't want to miss the second group, I better go to the bathroom now... during Dodds's skate.....I was not confident in Australia after Webster.

:scowl:

But then, I walked so fast, nearly destroyed Veronik Mallet's career by almost bumping into her knocking her out (okay I passed by her) that even if I had time to look very closely at Misha and his dad who were by the restaurant, I got back in time to see the first of the Dodds's. So, I didn't miss a thing! Jordan has very nice lyrical arms. That's what I remember. He also finished after his music....

Jordan has been working hard on his presentation :yes: He sometimes gets a little behind, but I noticed he was less behind here than at SLC. He got PBs for both programs so he is a happy little Dodds right now.

The final Dodds's bro to compete arrived on the ice. So far it wasn't Australia's day... but it got worse : WARSAW Concerto. I detest this music. It's everything I don't like. Sigh. Maybe I should go and take another bathroom break... oh well i stayed and watched. His first jump was gorgeous and high...Perhaps he wants to do a quad there and he just did a triple today. Well... the more the program was going, the more difficult it seemed for him... and of course, he is now injured. It was disappointing for him.

No, the first jump is always intended to be a 3Lz. Isn't it divine? I would like the triple Axel fairy to come visit him. He tweeted after that he has a pulled groin muscle that he tweaked on Monday, and then during the program it felt like it was tearing, but he is okay now.

Max and his Lion King were next...or considering his assets, it's Max, the Loin King (at this time in the middle of the night, i have to recycle jokes... I want to finish before bed and before forgetting everything

Max is fit. that's for sure. I felt he was skating very stiffly though. All his salchow jumps, 3 and 4 are landed with a touch down. His footwork was pretty slow. Some nice details in the Choreo but a bit more work. I particularly like the final jump, the LOIN king Belly flop ... actually that was extremely spooky. I wonder if Daniel has less bruises or if Max surpasses him.

Max is an odd cookie. I have a like-dislike relationship with him. There were some really good moves in his program. But in general he was a bit slower and stiffer than the other guys. I thought he was pretty well rewarded here as some of his big elements lacked quality. However, it's hard not to like what he brings to skating because he is different and after seeing 15 guys, it's nice to see other styles.

Dislike? It's possible to dislike Max? Howwwwwwwwww?

I think at the moment some jump-stiffness is expected while he really gets the choreo into his body. When that happens, he will be spectacular as always. I'd almost like them to put his 3Fe back in just to stop his overexcited double Axel problems

But now I just can't unsee The Loin King. Ever. Thanks for that.