ISU VP Lakernik: № of quads may be limited

[gsk8]

Thanks for taking the time to translate! Much appreciated!:thumbsup:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^

Well, the point is that changes were needed. The question is if they will work for general audience. If dont, they can change it again. I have no problem if theyre changing it every year...but that will be hard for skaters i guess... What i'm not ok with is to think about how changes will work for particular skaters or their fan bases. Because they shouldnt be made for them or cause of them... But for the general public...

 

[coldblueeyes]

I guess people are fine with everything untill their favorite skater/nation win medals ot their nemesis skater/nation doesnt win. If people are more invested in whole competitions as shows made for general public to enjoy in it, they will maybe agree with you. I totally agree with Lakernik answer on the question - who will win the competition then? The one who skates clean. Of course that someone who jumped 4 types of quad clean will win against someone who jumped only 2 of them. But if any of them fall during that process, im fine with someone with only clean 3As to win. My view on the problem is based exactly on worlds 2018 competition. Did Nathan deserve to win and to be watched in a program in which he shown tech mastery? Absolutely yes. But does the whole game in which hes came as a winner is worth watching? Absolutely not.

Bolded for the part I agree with the most. It's amazing that Nathan won with such a fantastically technical skate, but there are other 23 guys skating in the FS and over half of them had very bad showings at Worlds. It's impossible to say the enjoyment of a competition like that is the same as it would be with clean skates.

 

[Sportfan]

I guess people are fine with everything untill their favorite skater/nation win medals ot their nemesis skater/nation doesnt win. If people are more invested in whole competitions as shows made for general public to enjoy in it, they will maybe agree with you. I totally agree with Lakernik answer on the question - who will win the competition then? The one who skates clean. Of course that someone who jumped 4 types of quad clean will win against someone who jumped only 2 of them. But if any of them fall during that process, im fine with someone with only clean 3As to win. My view on the problem is based exactly on worlds 2018 competition. Did Nathan deserve to win and to be watched in a program in which he shown tech mastery? Absolutely yes. But does the whole game in which hes came as a winner is worth watching? Absolutely not.

Don't let the Americans hear that, i mean, they already think multiple quads make you the best skater ever.... They are going to march by tomorrow, just wait

 

[MajaHled]

^^^

Well, the point is that changes were needed. The question is if they will work for general audience. If dont, they can change it again. I have no problem if theyre changing it every year...but that will be hard for skaters i guess... What i'm not ok with is to think about how changes will work for particular skaters or their fan bases. Because they shouldnt be made for them or cause of them... But for the general public...

Hmmm, I'm not sure I like the idea of FS being a thing just for the sake of audiences. Of course, we all love watching and the ISU needs us to buy tickets etc. to fund itself, but I think the more important ones here should still be the skaters who put all their passion and effort into it. Not that I'm saying rules should be made to fit certain skaters, not at all, just that they should be good for the skaters in general. To enable them to put out the best performances they can and the rest will follow, including it being enjoyable for the audience. I think thinking about how the rule change would affect the field and the skaters is only natural, a way to try and guess how the change will affect the sport in the future. Of course, the rules shouldn't be made to advantage individual skaters, but any rule change will, inevitabely, have a positive and negative impact on some skaters' scores.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Bolded for the part I agree with the most. It's amazing that Nathan won with such a fantastically technical skate, but there are other 23 guys skating in the FS and over half of them had very bad showings at Worlds. It's impossible to say the enjoyment of a competition like that is the same as it would be with clean skates.

This was a prime example of post-Olympics Worlds though. Jin for example had a stark contrast between Olympics and here. Same with Uno. Chen was the major one who stepped up although skaters like Bychenko and Messing also shone, and the Russians also did better.

We also saw at the Olympics under this system that there were still some great skates.

There were some awful ladies' skates at Worlds 2018... but nobody is banning 3-3 combos because of it.

 

[LittleLotte29]

May I propose different kind of change?
- NO judges accused of a fraud to judge in the competition ever again
- judges may be and WILL be asked why did they give the score Y to the skater X and a proper PROFESSIONAL explanation may be demanded
- the training for journalists will be organised and only journalists who participate in the training will be accredited
- judges will have to take an EXAM every 3 years
- judges will get a SALARY and thus hold accountable.

I can assure you that if these principles were implemented - be it in the 6.0, IJS or UFO system - everything would go so much smoother.

 

[Miss Ice]

No matter how much discussion on this goes by, I still don't see the point of limiting quad rep. Errors on quads are already going to be heavily punished by the new GOE, which should be enough to discourage skaters from doing quads for BV alone, if applied correctly (and that's a big if). If anything, it will bar skaters from repeating quads that are actually very good. And I doubt we'll be seeing many quad combos in the free anymore. I really can't figure out why it was even proposed. I thought the point of the rule change was to direct the evolution of the sport in a desired direction, not to make it stagnate.

Maybe because the current winner had a 6 quad FS program, and was untouchable (at least in this comp)?

 

[andromache]

May I propose different kind of change?
- NO judges accused of a fraud to judge in the competition ever again
- judges may be and WILL be asked why did they give the score Y to the skater X and a proper PROFESSIONAL explanation may be demanded
- the training for journalists will be organised and only journalists who participate in the training will be accredited
- judges will have to take an EXAM every 3 years
- judges will get a SALARY and thus hold accountable.

I can assure you that if these principles were implemented - be it in the 6.0, IJS or UFO system - everything would go so much smoother.

I hope you meant "judges" here. We don't need the ISU regulating journalism.

 

[andromache]

Maybe because the current winner had a 6 quad FS program, and was untouchable (at least in this comp)?

But it's not like he did 6 of the same quads, or even came close to an Elaine Zayak sort of thing. He did 4 different types of quads. The maximum number of DIFFERENT quads is 6. 4 out of 6 doesn't show enough diversity?

The current winner was untouchable in the competition because he was BY FAR the best of the night. BY FAR.

The entire proposition is ridiculous and backwards.

 

[Miss Ice]

But it's not like he did 6 of the same quads, or even came close to an Elaine Zayak sort of thing. He did 4 different types of quads. The maximum number of DIFFERENT quads is 6. 4 out of 6 doesn't show enough diversity?

The current winner was untouchable in the competition because he was BY FAR the best of the night. BY FAR.

The entire proposition is ridiculous and backwards.

Exactly! I was implying that some higher-up people are not liking the Chendomination - seems interesting that these came just a week or two after Worlds. It's pretty clear that if Nathan can up his artistry and keep the 5-6 quad program, no one will touch him. But limiting quads and having +5 GOE will allow skaters with less quads be favored in the event of a tiny mistake by Nathan.

 

[MajaHled]

Maybe because the current winner had a 6 quad FS program, and was untouchable (at least in this comp)?

Yeah, untouchable in a post-Olys Worlds where the Oly champ wasn't even competing and all the other medal contenders bombed spectacularly. Maybe you're forgetting that two of the men's Olys medalists got there with only 4T and 4S. I also don't see anything inherently wrong with a 6-quad program. If someone could execute a layout like that with good quality jumps, many transitions, great skating skills as well as musicality and performance, that'd be amazing (no offense to Nathan, but he's not there yet, by far). Why stop people from trying? And it's not like limiting quad repetition will stop people from doing quads, more like it'll make them attempt quads which are not stable, I fear.

 

[andromache]

Exactly! I was implying that some higher-up people are not liking the Chendomination - seems interesting that these came just a week or two after Worlds. It's pretty clear that if Nathan can up his artistry and keep the 5-6 quad program, no one will touch him.

I don't think this is true. His jumps aren't usually of the highest quality, and it's rare he gives the performances 100% commitment and emotion when he is so focused on the technical content.

He's also not immune to mistakes like pops and falls! He didn't win an individual medal at the Olympics.

I'm not really worried about any overt domination from him, honestly. The ISU shouldn't be either.

 

[MajaHled]

May I propose different kind of change?
- NO judges accused of a fraud to judge in the competition ever again
- judges may be and WILL be asked why did they give the score Y to the skater X and a proper PROFESSIONAL explanation may be demanded
- the training for journalists will be organised and only journalists who participate in the training will be accredited
- judges will have to take an EXAM every 3 years
- judges will get a SALARY and thus hold accountable.

I can assure you that if these principles were implemented - be it in the 6.0, IJS or UFO system - everything would go so much smoother.

Who will pay for that though?

 

[xeyra]

While I'm not sure if limiting the number of quads is an answer to Nathan or the very unstable and splatfesty men's field that has developed with the kind of progress he and others have brought to the field, the -5/+5 GOE, as said before, was cooked up before Nathan came into seniors so at least that particular change is not quite in answer to him.

The backloading bonus discussion (limiting it/getting rid of it) is very much in answer to the Russian ladies, though.

 

[MajaHled]

I don't think this is true. His jumps aren't usually of the highest quality, and it's rare he gives the performances 100% commitment and emotion when he is so focused on the technical content.

He's also not immune to mistakes like pops and falls! He didn't win an individual medal at the Olympics.

I'm not really worried about any overt domination from him, honestly. The ISU shouldn't be either.

Also it's not like the rest of the field will just rest up while Nathan's improving, it takes a lot of time to work on skating skills and performance. And adding transitions would make it very very difficult for him to keep so many quads. There's still a lot of work ahead of Nahtan if he wants to even think of dominating and he might never get there.

 

[TunaKeem]

I'm very confused why the VP of the ISU, who is from Russia, is talking about re-doing the scoring system and specifically mentioning skaters from his country, who will benefit from this rule change in an interview? Why is he mentioning Kolyada and how many quads he has? Are they not even trying to be shady about it anymore?

 

[russianfan]

May I propose different kind of change?
- NO judges accused of a fraud to judge in the competition ever again
- judges may be and WILL be asked why did they give the score Y to the skater X and a proper PROFESSIONAL explanation may be demanded
- the training for journalists will be organised and only journalists who participate in the training will be accredited
- judges will have to take an EXAM every 3 years
- judges will get a SALARY and thus hold accountable.

I can assure you that if these principles were implemented - be it in the 6.0, IJS or UFO system - everything would go so much smoother.

When they should be asked? After competition has ended? Look, there are 8(i guess?) GOE criterias. It's pretty hard to give correct GOE in realtime, because you should remember all those criterias. What if judge forgets about some criteria? Let's say the judge gives +1 GOE when they should give +2(for example). Then after the competition we ask the judge why there's +1 instead of +2, and they say like, "ok, you're right, i was wrong, there should be +2". Should we change results then? What if this affects the standings? There are many nuances with this.

Removing the bias in figure skating is simple(at least for the technical score) - just let judges watch elements in slow motion and penalize them more harshly if they still give wrong scores(life ban). But knowing how long it took in football(i mean slow-mo thing) i don't think we will see anything like this in the near future of FS.

 

[xeyra]

I'm very confused why the VP of the ISU, who is from Russia, is talking about re-doing the scoring system and specifically mentioning skaters from his country, who will benefit from this rule change in an interview? Why is he mentioning Kolyada and how many quads he has? Are they not even trying to be shady about it anymore?

I was thrown by that too but I guess since he was being interviewed by a Russian journalist, for a Russian publication/article, he didn't mince words about what that might mean for Russian skaters. Still, I'd rather he be more neutral in his discussions of this, as a representative of ISU.

 

[cruzceleste]

I was thrown by that too but I guess since he was being interviewed by a Russian journalist, for a Russian publication/article, he didn't mince words about what that might mean for Russian skaters. Still, I'd rather he be more neutral in his discussions of this, as a representative of ISU.

Well, I´m sure Japan would care about how the system would affect/ benefit Japanese skaters. Maybe if someone is kind enough to translate the video from Japan we can compare the tone and content