Nope.
Basically the only money they raised was from the one annual event and after 10+ years, they were just exhausted.
Thoughts on U.S. skating talent
- Thread starter Cindy1983
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Nope.
Basically the only money they raised was from the one annual event and after 10+ years, they were just exhausted.
I think also cultural resonance. Not all Euro-American or Asian-American communities have much interest in a cold weather sport that rewards refined movement, but some do, and that's where a majority of skaters come from. If there isn't a community interest already there, kids are less likely to start skating.
Role models can also generate interest.
As noted above, there also need to be rinks available nearby. Which can be affected not only by economics but also by local culture.
In areas where hockey is popular, there are more likely to be rinks.
Most figure skating instruction in the US beyond beginner levels is organized around private lessons.
I've been wondering lately about how it might work to build it around group instruction in an academy model, with private attention for half an hour or more at a time an exception rather than the rule.
I think it would work better if you have a large population of skaters who can be grouped by age and skill level, not so well if there are few enough skaters in a club that they're all working on different skills. Maybe some kind of hybrid model with classes to introduce skaters to skills they all need and get them to practice them regularly with instructors offering corrections, and combined with some private instruction to focus on individual needs, choreograph programs, etc.
That’s the model that my local figure skating club up in Canada ran on. There was group instruction at three different levels (you went to the appropriate sessions) and an instructor would teach each group a salchow or a difficult step or what not. Then there was also free skating time when you’d work with your coach or practice on your own or run your program. The session would end with a different pattern dance each week.
How high up did these group classes go?
We have those at our rink through all the singles including the axel. They start to get phased out with doubles.
First, I read several years ago a commentator bemoaning the lack of champions in the sport and claiming that one champion would revive interest. Nonformal poll: is this true? I hope the USFS isn't thinking this way.
I read in another thread that they give high PCS for a few hard jumps which I didn't realize. I thought it was only artistry that was in the PCS. I'm willing to overlook (slightly) inflated PCS for decent artistry, but since jumps get GOE, it feels like double dipping. That makes it easy to prop up skaters. I personally think they should scrap the way they deal with jumps. They should classify by type and number of revolutions. The jumps are valued by type (axel v loop) and revolution (triple v double). The value is based on how the jump is done if executed perfectly and they would deduct from there. There would be a 70% mandatory deduction for a fall. Pops would be handled by giving credit for the jump they did. They still take a hit, but salvage something. Rotation credit frustrates me in the current system b/c there's no proof they use it consistently across skaters. Instead of UR v downgrade just call both URs and have a 30% mandatory deduction. This also deals with another issue I have with URs. By taking deductions off the jump itself, you can't use rotation credit to balance out fall deductions.
It'll be interesting to see if the girls who leave Eteri have longer careers.
The US was behind in implementation of and adaption to the IJS. They used the interim system for longer. I believe they switched over between Vancouver and Sochi. After Sochi was when they began actually ADAPTING to it. It takes time to bear the fruit of the change.
There's a lot of talk about propping up skaters, but what about propping up coaches. A coach can be good, but not be able to adapt to the IJS. What I think they need to do (desperately) is study to see what coaches (both here and abroad) who have adapted to and had success under the IJS do and figure out how to copy it. Then give coaches incentive to adapt and let the ones who don't go by the wayside (or retire, in the case of the older ones). Coaching turnover is sorely needed.
I'd be all for Gold making a comeback, but only if it's no her terms and with a coach that absolutely clicks with her.
Group lessons at all levels are not bad. It's a good way to mine talent. The ones that are really good can do extra.
I read in another thread that they give high PCS for a few hard jumps which I didn't realize. I thought it was only artistry that was in the PCS. I'm willing to overlook (slightly) inflated PCS for decent artistry, but since jumps get GOE, it feels like double dipping. That makes it easy to prop up skaters. I personally think they should scrap the way they deal with jumps. They should classify by type and number of revolutions. The jumps are valued by type (axel v loop) and revolution (triple v double). The value is based on how the jump is done if executed perfectly and they would deduct from there. There would be a 70% mandatory deduction for a fall. Pops would be handled by giving credit for the jump they did. They still take a hit, but salvage something. Rotation credit frustrates me in the current system b/c there's no proof they use it consistently across skaters. Instead of UR v downgrade just call both URs and have a 30% mandatory deduction. This also deals with another issue I have with URs. By taking deductions off the jump itself, you can't use rotation credit to balance out fall deductions.
It'll be interesting to see if the girls who leave Eteri have longer careers.
The US was behind in implementation of and adaption to the IJS. They used the interim system for longer. I believe they switched over between Vancouver and Sochi. After Sochi was when they began actually ADAPTING to it. It takes time to bear the fruit of the change.
There's a lot of talk about propping up skaters, but what about propping up coaches. A coach can be good, but not be able to adapt to the IJS. What I think they need to do (desperately) is study to see what coaches (both here and abroad) who have adapted to and had success under the IJS do and figure out how to copy it. Then give coaches incentive to adapt and let the ones who don't go by the wayside (or retire, in the case of the older ones). Coaching turnover is sorely needed.
I'd be all for Gold making a comeback, but only if it's no her terms and with a coach that absolutely clicks with her.
Group lessons at all levels are not bad. It's a good way to mine talent. The ones that are really good can do extra.
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Many of us have siblings and our parents still did what they had to for our skating careers, it feels good to have reached that point, and now it makes a living for us and we were able to pay our parents back. Our siblings don't resent us either, so maybe this all should have been thought of before getting so involved with the sport or perhaps not get involved at all, that's all I can tell you. :confused2:
That is unfortunate, especially if the skating results are not really noteworthy. The same happens in other countries, too. Javier Fernandez is a good example in positive sense: He became an Olympic bronze medalist and a two-time World Champion. His father had to take a second job and in some point his sister gave up her skating career.
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that just sparked an idea...what if WE began a fund for these skaters? there are more than enough members here and many who i'm very sure would donate regularly. it could be done yearly (or every 6 months even) and then we could split the funds between a few skaters? if there are any other big skating forums out there we could ask them if they'd want to jump in as well. just brainstorming!
Cindy1983 said:
is there a reason why this is? by sochi IJS was already about 10 years old...what reason did USFSA have to wait so long to actually adapt? IMO they should have been pushing this right from the first few years of implementation. all it did was make US skaters fall behind and then play catch up, especially the ones who began competing under 6.0. it definitely explains the lack of international competitiveness (especially in ladies) the last decade or so.
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Agreed. Sure, there are success stories that we hear about, but how many families wind up going broke and their kid never really accomplishes anything with their skating or is able to make that money back?
Ic3Rabbit can feel proud of they've accomplished with their family's assistance, but it doesn't mean it is a desirable, practical, or smart route for the majority of low-income households. Risking your financial everything for your kid's sports career? It's admirable if it ends up working out for you but that's not likely to happen.
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I think for many families it's a gradual and calculated investment based on the kid's talent, potential and results. perhaps not many parents were prepared for taking out mortgage or multiple jobs to support skating at the beginning, however they were encouraged when the kids deliver good results. Vice versa, most skating parents, if financially challenged, should know when to slow down if they see the ceiling.
It's fine, she's having fun. It's just she's going to be limited. And I can't imagine I'm alone. My point is that this is why our talent pool is smaller than Japan and Russia. Many young people who could be amazing skaters are either put off from the beginning because of cost, like you suggest, or aren't able to rise to elite levels because of money.
Your comment proved my point. People ought to not get involved at all if they can't spend 10s of thousands of dollars on one child at the cost of their other children, which is why the US talent pool is lean.
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We already discussed earlier that there might be a cultural difference between Russia and the U.S.A. A lot of low income Russians support their kids even if it means emotional and financial sacrifices. Take Zagitova, for instance. She is not from a wealthy family. To move from Izhevsk to Moscow at the age of 12 was an emotional challenge for her and her parents and a big financial sacrifice. Renting even a shabby apartment in Moscow in which she lived until recently was a big part of the household income. They could not afford to buy 2 new dresses every season - her mother apparently lacks the talent that Yulia's mother has. Hence she wore Zhenya's old red tutu - like from an elder sister.
And it was a big gamble. At the age of 12 Alina was not visible on the radars. Not like current prodigies Akatieva or Samodelkina. Not like Gubanova and Nugumanova back then. I don't think she or her parents made rational "investment analysis" as someone earlier suggested. It was very emotional, very "Russian" decision. It has worked out. But I am sure there have been many similar sacrifices that have not payed back. Sima's is well known because she was well-known. But there are surely dozens or hundreds of others.
For the Russians it's the combination of the emotional support of a "child on a mission" and the hope to win in the lottery. I understand that US parents are more rational in general. If supporting FS of and elder child might mean the risk of not having enough funds to finance the college of a younger one (may be even in 10 years) they may not go with it.
And it was a big gamble. At the age of 12 Alina was not visible on the radars. Not like current prodigies Akatieva or Samodelkina. Not like Gubanova and Nugumanova back then. I don't think she or her parents made rational "investment analysis" as someone earlier suggested. It was very emotional, very "Russian" decision. It has worked out. But I am sure there have been many similar sacrifices that have not payed back. Sima's is well known because she was well-known. But there are surely dozens or hundreds of others.
For the Russians it's the combination of the emotional support of a "child on a mission" and the hope to win in the lottery. I understand that US parents are more rational in general. If supporting FS of and elder child might mean the risk of not having enough funds to finance the college of a younger one (may be even in 10 years) they may not go with it.
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:agree: This point re the size of the talent *pool* makes sense to me.
A valid point of view, IMO.
With the understanding that every family is unique and that another family could have a different point of view.
Anecdotally, the parent of a senior singles skater at U.S. Nats (who has competed internationally for several years) happened to tell me that it had caused some resentment (now in the past) that one child was an elite skater and one did not skate.
So again, every family is unique. The possibility of resentment could be a real concern for some families.
(I do not know the particulars of the financial situation of the family I mentioned, but reducing expenditures does seem important to them. In their case, it is not routine for a parent to travel to competitions. And when they do, they sometimes drive very long distances to do so, instead of paying for a flight.)
ETA:
I realized that I should have made note that I have met four members of this family: elite skater, sibling (non-skater young adult) who traveled to San Jose to cheer for the skater, and both parents.
All are lovely people.
I have nothing but admiration for them. My words above are absolutely not intended as any kind of criticism.
All are lovely people.
I have nothing but admiration for them. My words above are absolutely not intended as any kind of criticism.
My understanding is that Nathan for years has received some funding from his home club in SLC?
I do not know whether his club raises funds specifically for this type of purpose, but your general idea perhaps already is in effect at some clubs?
Obviously the more clubs, the merrier.
(Lest anyone wonder: I am not trying to diminish at all what Nathan received from the Michael Weiss Foundation. I imagine that Nathan and his family have been grateful for all sources of funding.)
that just sparked an idea...what if WE began a fund for these skaters? there are more than enough members here and many who i'm very sure would donate regularly. it could be done yearly (or every 6 months even) and then we could split the funds between a few skaters? if there are any other big skating forums out there we could ask them if they'd want to jump in as well. just brainstorming!
A noble idea.
For it to work, there would need to be agreement as to how to determine which few skaters would be recipients of funding.
If a small committee were to be empowered to select recipients, there would need to be agreement as to who would be on the committee.
Not trying to rain on your parade. If you can bring your idea to fruition, good for you.
Just sayin' that the devil would be in the details.
:agree:
Did she have a double axel at 12? Maybe some triples?
That's kind of the entry level to having the possibility of an elite career. But it takes several years of hard work while the kid is younger to find out whether she has the possibility of getting there at all.
At 12, I believe she had a double axel and 2 triples. "Lots" of competitive skaters in the US have those at that age.
Sponsors page on Nathan's website - 'We would like to express our deepest gratitude to all of Nathan’s past and present sponsors listed below.' - which include Salt Lake Figure Skating and the Michael Weiss Foundation, among others.
http://figureskatersonline.com/nathanchen/sponsors/
Nathan has received help from the very beginning: http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...n-take-sport-new-heights-2018-winter-olympics
At the end of the six-week session, Nathan's mother, Hetty Wang, approached Grosscup and asked whether her son might benefit from private lessons. The two women didn't know it, but they were about to make a pact that would jump-start an Olympian. Mindful of the family's modest means, Grosscup often charged only half her normal fee or asked for a home-cooked dinner instead. "I'd teach him a couple times a week, and then Hetty would go out there with him in public sessions, chase after him to make sure he was doing all the drills, all the warm-ups, all the edges, all those spins over and over again," Grosscup says. "Incredible, phenomenal devotion."
and Nathan and his first coach Stephanee Grosscup last year in Sun Valley (I think she lives there now, and Nathan has performed in the Sun Valley Ice show every year since 2010):
https://www.facebook.com/sviceshows/posts/1520316148045615
http://figureskatersonline.com/nathanchen/sponsors/
Nathan has received help from the very beginning: http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...n-take-sport-new-heights-2018-winter-olympics
At the end of the six-week session, Nathan's mother, Hetty Wang, approached Grosscup and asked whether her son might benefit from private lessons. The two women didn't know it, but they were about to make a pact that would jump-start an Olympian. Mindful of the family's modest means, Grosscup often charged only half her normal fee or asked for a home-cooked dinner instead. "I'd teach him a couple times a week, and then Hetty would go out there with him in public sessions, chase after him to make sure he was doing all the drills, all the warm-ups, all the edges, all those spins over and over again," Grosscup says. "Incredible, phenomenal devotion."
and Nathan and his first coach Stephanee Grosscup last year in Sun Valley
(I think she lives there now, and Nathan has performed in the Sun Valley Ice show every year since 2010):https://www.facebook.com/sviceshows/posts/1520316148045615
The difference I believe is that the pay out of skating in Russia is sooner and more complete than in the US. Russia pays for the training of girls in the Juniors, which can be in the thousands. In the US your skater might get $3k, you're still out the rest of the training cost and everything else. Also, young Russian skaters are supported by being a skater first and their education is fit around their skating. In the US these young people are waking at 4am, skating, going to a full day of class, skating after school 5 days a week. That is so much more exhausting than fitting education around training. It's a huge cultural but financial difference. The Russian government invests in winning the Olympics. They don't just do this for figure skating, but weightlifting, hockey, etc etc. The US does not. When the country at least picks of the tab of elite skaters and makes is a government goal of winning the Olympics, the talent pool is larger. There is less of a risk to begin. You might have to sacrifice, but not as much and not as long.
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Actually, we covered that as well. The financial aspect is arguably not about the countable dollars but about the share of the household's disposable income and the opportunity cost of paying for FS. Yes, in Russia parents do not pay for basic ice time and the coach. But basic ice time with the coach means training in a big group early in the morning. My friend's wife had to get up before 5 a.m. Actually with hockey it's similar. If you want more ice then you have to pay out of pocket. If you want special attention of a choreographer, if you want the help with music selection - you have to pay out of pocket as well. Parents buy skates, they buy dresses. Now, average household income in Russia is about $1,000 a month - approximately the cost of a dress. So an average household can buy 12 FS dresses for their annual income.
And skipping regular school, getting into government's program - that's for the elite. To get into 20 elite figure skaters 2000 parents are on the daily mission of sacrifice.
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