2018 Skate America Mens FS

[Mrs. P]

Maybe an unpopular opinion but:

I don't think Vincent's coaches are doing him any favours by acting like he doesn't have an UR problem. If the judges are going to call it it doesn't matter if your coaches think you should win the gold. It's the judges you need to convince and right now the judges are not convinced about Vincent's jumps.

I also think Johnny and Tara do a disservice too by saying "It's not UR" several times. They've definitely slammed other skaters for URs, repeatedly, so I'm not sure why they were so adamant about Vincent not having them.

Just one technical correction... it's the technical panel, not the judges, they have to convince.

 

[ancientpeas]

I also think Johnny and Tara do a disservice too by saying "It's not UR" several times. They've definitely slammed other skaters for URs, repeatedly, so I'm not sure why they were so adamant about Vincent not having them.

Just one technical correction... it's the technical panel, not the judges, they have to convince.

Yes true.

Tech panel does not believe in his ability to rotate the jumps right now. He has to show them that he is fully rotated and that means not a 1/4 but fully rotated so as to eliminate any doubt.

 

[Mrs. P]

Yes true.

Tech panel does not believe in his ability to rotate the jumps right now. He has to show them that he is fully rotated and that means not a 1/4 but fully rotated so as to eliminate any doubt.

Not to mention that 1/4 is now UR. No more borderline. It's more than 1/4 rotation or you're UR.

 

[karne]

Maybe an unpopular opinion but:

I don't think Vincent's coaches are doing him any favours by acting like he doesn't have an UR problem. If the judges are going to call it it doesn't matter if your coaches think you should win the gold. It's the judges you need to convince and right now the judges are not convinced about Vincent's jumps.

Not an unpopular opinion at all, IMO.

I wasn't surprised that those two idiots on NBC were trying to spin some kind of "vincent wuz robbed!" narrative yesterday, but I was extremely disappointed that Zakrasjek, Gambill and even Jackie Wong continued spinning it.

I don't get where Zakrasjek is coming from with it especially. He made a name for his men having good jumps! Hello? Max Aaron? Joshua Farris? You could probably count on one hand the number of times those two got called UR. It should be blindingly obvious to him there's a problem. He even had Vincent and Max training side by side last year which should have made it REALLY obvious! Why is he playing dumb on this? I don't get it.

 

[ancientpeas]

Not an unpopular opinion at all, IMO.

I wasn't surprised that those two idiots on NBC were trying to spin some kind of "vincent wuz robbed!" narrative yesterday, but I was extremely disappointed that Zakrasjek, Gambill and even Jackie Wong continued spinning it.

I don't get where Zakrasjek is coming from with it especially. He made a name for his men having good jumps! Hello? Max Aaron? Joshua Farris? You could probably count on one hand the number of times those two got called UR. It should be blindingly obvious to him there's a problem. He even had Vincent and Max training side by side last year which should have made it REALLY obvious! Why is he playing dumb on this? I don't get it.

I wonder if with Vincent it is a case of too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

[Sabrina]

A lot of programs had an abrupt or weird ending, looking they were shrunk to fit into 4 min.
On the other hand I am happy for Voronov and Brezina, old school of figure skating. Sergei's shirt may show designed signs of stabbing...and his last glance to sky was so hard to watch. RIP Denis!
This was still a weird competition.

 

[moriel]

Not an unpopular opinion at all, IMO.

I wasn't surprised that those two idiots on NBC were trying to spin some kind of "vincent wuz robbed!" narrative yesterday, but I was extremely disappointed that Zakrasjek, Gambill and even Jackie Wong continued spinning it.

I don't get where Zakrasjek is coming from with it especially. He made a name for his men having good jumps! Hello? Max Aaron? Joshua Farris? You could probably count on one hand the number of times those two got called UR. It should be blindingly obvious to him there's a problem. He even had Vincent and Max training side by side last year which should have made it REALLY obvious! Why is he playing dumb on this? I don't get it.

and honestly, those URs are visible and obvious in real time.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think you could argue for maybe one or two less URs over the course of the competition and generally I don't like super strict calling for the sake of it, but I was surprised to see how many URs I saw in the naked eye without the closeups.

I agree with the podium. I wouldn't have minded Matteo or Sergei to switch, though.

That's a fair assessment. You can quibble about the GOEs and PCS scoring - which certainly has some big question marks in my mind - but the tech panel did their job.

 

[georgia]

It’s possible he URs when nervous. That’s very difficult to fix.

 

[Elucidus]

I've never thought I would say it - considering being russian and Voronov fan - but Zhou WAS ROBBED! Even TAT wasn't agree with his score despite the fact that it helped Voronov to get to podium and TAT being extremely patriotic. She is adamant in her opinion about new rules and judging being unfair and regressive towards fs as a sport - punishing athletes for trying complex elements instead of motivating them.

 

[karne]

It’s possible he URs when nervous. That’s very difficult to fix.

If he's that nervous at every comp that it messes with his rotation then they need to find another way around it. I don't think he's had a single competition as a Senior where he's had no URs.

I've never thought I would say it - considering being russian and Voronov fan - but Zhou WAS ROBBED! Even TAT wasn't agree with his score despite the fact that it helped Voronov to get to podium and TAT being extremely patriotic. She is adamant in her opinion about new rules and judging being unfair and regressive towards fs as a sport - punishing athletes for trying complex elements instead of motivating them.

They should punish athletes for doing things they can't do properly. Zhou wasn't robbed. And this narrative is starting to really cheese me off.

To think a skater like Vincent with his obvious URs shouldn't be punished is a spit in the face to all the skaters who put in the blood sweat and tears to do their jumps cleanly.

 

[Tolstoj]

Not an unpopular opinion at all, IMO.

I wasn't surprised that those two idiots on NBC were trying to spin some kind of "vincent wuz robbed!" narrative yesterday, but I was extremely disappointed that Zakrasjek, Gambill and even Jackie Wong continued spinning it.

I don't get where Zakrasjek is coming from with it especially. He made a name for his men having good jumps! Hello? Max Aaron? Joshua Farris? You could probably count on one hand the number of times those two got called UR. It should be blindingly obvious to him there's a problem. He even had Vincent and Max training side by side last year which should have made it REALLY obvious! Why is he playing dumb on this? I don't get it.

Yeah he tried the same thing with Tessa Hong, backloading everything pretending she had no URs when those were clear as day, it didn't work.

I think they are trying to stick to the plans hoping for that one competition on the entire season (maybe a big one like worlds) where judges are so kind to forgive URs to everyone so in that case having two 4ltuzes planned certainly can help.

But right now judges are sending the opposite message, do less but cleaner.

 

[Ziotic]

As a skater there was nothing that bothered me more than losing to people who couldn’t rotate. Rotating a jump and landing it with good quality should be rewarded and it’s frustrating how often people get rewarded for not completing something properly.

 

[hippomoomin]

Can someone please do a slow motion analysis to show how and in what way Vincent's textbook under rotations were achieved? Some of his jumps with ur calls, I cannot see in real time, and in replay. But I can clearly see Karen's under rotations even in real time when they were called. I am just a casual fan with no skating experiences at all. If he under rotated with pre-rotations, please point out that too, even though that should not be called under rotations, right?

I think when the competition is over, have a thread in the Arena would be helpful. It seems there are quite a few different ways to under rotate.

 

[TontoK]

If he's that nervous at every comp that it messes with his rotation then they need to find another way around it. I don't think he's had a single competition as a Senior where he's had no URs.



They should punish athletes for doing things they can't do properly. Zhou wasn't robbed. And this narrative is starting to really cheese me off.

To think a skater like Vincent with his obvious URs shouldn't be punished is a spit in the face to all the skaters who put in the blood sweat and tears to do their jumps cleanly.

For just a moment, removing Vincent from the discussion... just talking in general.

Karne is saying what I've argued for some time. The technical side of the sport matters.

People will get absolutely outraged over a point or two difference in what they perceive PCS should be, but turn a blind eye to unclean edges, missed levels, and underrotated jumps.

It's not the caller's job to shower the arena with Level 4's and sweep all the < under the rug.

The caller's job is to ACCURATELY report the elements the skater has performed.

 

[karne]

I think they are trying to stick to the plans hoping for that one competition on the entire season (maybe a big one like worlds) where judges are so kind to forgive URs to everyone so in that case having two 4ltuzes planned certainly can help.

They're probably banking on the lenient calling at US Nats. But Zhou was even called for four URs in the FS at that, and when those marshmallow callers at Nats are calling them then he's definitely getting calls internationally. I don't get it.

 

[frida80]

Maybe an unpopular opinion but:

I don't think Vincent's coaches are doing him any favours by acting like he doesn't have an UR problem. If the judges are going to call it it doesn't matter if your coaches think you should win the gold. It's the judges you need to convince and right now the judges are not convinced about Vincent's jumps.

It's not an unpopular opinion. Those jumps have been obvious for a while. I understand why he couldn't focus on them this summer, but this should be a priority.

 

[moriel]

Can someone please do a slow motion analysis to show how and in what way Vincent's textbook under rotations were achieved? Some of his jumps with ur calls, I cannot see in real time, and in replay. But I can clearly see Karen's under rotations even in real time when they were called. I am just a casual fan with no skating experiences at all. If he under rotated with pre-rotations, please point out that too, even though that should not be called under rotations, right?

I think when the competition is over, have a thread in the Arena would be helpful. It seems there are quite a few different ways to under rotate.

I mostly notice he has those hooks when landing. Usually when a jump is rotated, the skater lands and then skates straight out. When one URs, there is this small curve. Its kinda visible on all Vincent's URd jumps

 

[ancientpeas]

I don't think what the judges are saying is "don't try hard things". I think what they are saying is "Don't just throw out things to score points because you land them 10% of the time in practice".

A well done triple loop should score better than a fall on a 4 loop IMO. But then I prefer clean skates to messy ones.

But as far as tech panels go I only really have one request: Call everything or call nothing but the most blatant things because otherwise it is unfair. Call everyone's e or ! or no ones. Do not give an e to low ranked skater that you wouldn't give to the current world or Olympic Champion. Same with urs. Heck.. I'm a huge Satoko fan so UR are a big issue but I don't want her to win if she is ur and another lady is not. There has to be some fairness.

 

[TontoK]

One of the things that has earned my admiration for this competition and for this technical panel is that there has been NO home cooking, and no favoritism shown towards those we expect to be on the podium.

Case in point: Nathan's Free Skate today included Level 2 footwork and a Level 2 spin, as well as ! on his 3F-3T combo.

That's the way the caller saw it, and that's the way he reported the elements. I'm sure Nathan and Raf will be focusing on those elements to clean them up. An accurate caller does the skater a favor by not overlooking faults that another caller wouldn't.