2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Artemisa]

Question: What does Anna Pogogrilaya being at Golden Spin mean for her nationals qualification? It would be kinda weird for her to do a Challenger Event but be unable to be at Nationals!

I have no clue if she'll actually end up making it there (since Liza was on the entry list and obviously she won't be there) but I hope she does cause I miss her!

I have the same thought ... I hope she compete

 

[esteticlove]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about Tuktamysheva. On the one hand, she has great technique on most of the jumps (if not on all of them) and is a pleasure to watch her landing them clean. My favourite combination is her 3T-3T in the short program, at NHK it was awesome. I also wondered why her GOEs were so low, in comparison not nly with Satoko but with Kihira, too. The set-up for the jumping pass wasn't any longer than the ones of the other ladies. In my opinion, she's one of the very few who manages to get so quickly into the -3T, without getting off axis but still keeping a decent height. Honestly, I could actually only think of Trusova executing her 3Lz-3Lo this way. For me personally, this is what a quality jump/combination should look like and therefore it should be properly rewarded.

On the other hand, there's the issue with the presentation. And here comes the bizarre thing for me. I watched her programs at NHK and I could definitely see that Liza is a performer, she takes pleasure in her skating and enjoys the contact with the audience. So, it's not as if she wasn't interpreting her programs well. But still there's an enormous incoherence into them. It feels like jump - clap with the hands - stop *jump* - repeat. Also, I don't think that the lack of transitions in and out of her jumps is the biggest problem. It's more likely her StSq (although I think she got a Lvl4), she really does a lot of two-foot-skating and I always have the feeling as if I am waiting for something to happen, but this big thing doesn't come. At the end, if we compare her full program with a full program of some other skaters (Satoko in the recent case) it's obviously that there are a lot of things lacking. This issue, however, should most probably be addressed to Mishin and his choreographers and not Liza. If he wants big results for her, they have to show the full packaging.

 

[vesperalvioletta]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about Tuktamysheva. On the one hand, she has great technique on most of the jumps (if not on all of them) and is a pleasure to watch her landing them clean. My favourite combination is her 3T-3T in the short program, at NHK it was awesome. I also wondered why her GOEs were so low, in comparison not nly with Satoko but with Kihira, too. The set-up for the jumping pass wasn't any longer than the ones of the other ladies. In my opinion, she's one of the very few who manages to get so quickly into the -3T, without getting off axis but still keeping a decent height. Honestly, I could actually only think of Trusova executing her 3Lz-3Lo this way. For me personally, this is what a quality jump/combination should look like and therefore it should be properly rewarded.

On the other hand, there's the issue with the presentation. And here comes the bizarre thing for me. I watched her programs at NHK and I could definitely see that Liza is a performer, she takes pleasure in her skating and enjoys the contact with the audience. So, it's not as if she wasn't interpreting her programs well. But still there's an enormous incoherence into them. It feels like jump - clap with the hands - stop *jump* - repeat. Also, I don't think that the lack of transitions in and out of her jumps is the biggest problem. It's more likely her StSq (although I think she got a Lvl4), she really does a lot of two-foot-skating and I always have the feeling as if I am waiting for something to happen, but this big thing doesn't come. At the end, if we compare her full program with a full program of some other skaters (Satoko in the recent case) it's obviously that there are a lot of things lacking. This issue, however, should most probably be addressed to Mishin and his choreographers and not Liza. If he wants big results for her, they have to show the full packaging.

As someone who loves Liza, I am inclined to agree with your points. I think Liza's problem is that she doesn't have much range - all of her programs have the same sort of intense, somewhat sassy non-theme that is easy for her to sell but doesn't really lend itself to being very interpretive. I guess we could accuse Satoko of doing the same thing with her lush, lyrical programs, but I think she has tried to branch out more, and there's more meat to programs that have inherently emotional themes. The unfortunate thing is, Liza is always going to do the same thing she's been doing. Setting her up to successfully perform her jumps is the most important thing for Mishin, and he's been known for cutting choreography that could prevent her from doing so. I think Liza is more likely to go for even more technical content, like a third 3A, to get a leg up on the competition, than she is to add harder transitions.

Also unfortunate - I don't think Liza will ever get a +5 on any of her jump elements because her entries are neither creative nor difficult, and because they don't often match the music. She definitely gets everything she needs for +3 when she lands her jumps cleanly (good height and distance, clean takeoff and landing, and effortless throughout), and it wouldn't be a stretch to give her a fourth bullet for body position, but she doesn't get either of the other two bullets. In my opinion, Satoko's jumps should never get more than a +2, or a +3 if you want to be generous, and that's at their best, but she does have an advantage against Liza in just about everything else.

 

[andromache]

On the other hand, there's the issue with the presentation. And here comes the bizarre thing for me. I watched her programs at NHK and I could definitely see that Liza is a performer, she takes pleasure in her skating and enjoys the contact with the audience. So, it's not as if she wasn't interpreting her programs well. But still there's an enormous incoherence into them. It feels like jump - clap with the hands - stop *jump* - repeat. Also, I don't think that the lack of transitions in and out of her jumps is the biggest problem. It's more likely her StSq (although I think she got a Lvl4), she really does a lot of two-foot-skating and I always have the feeling as if I am waiting for something to happen, but this big thing doesn't come. At the end, if we compare her full program with a full program of some other skaters (Satoko in the recent case) it's obviously that there are a lot of things lacking. This issue, however, should most probably be addressed to Mishin and his choreographers and not Liza. If he wants big results for her, they have to show the full packaging.

Thank you for perfectly expressing how I feel! She's very charismatic and a great performer, and I think she really gets into feeling her music, too. But the choreography is not good, and the level of skating is below the other ladies.

Satoko and Liza are especially tough to compare because they are polar opposites in just about every way, including the type of performer they are and the types of programs they excel at.

No one wants or expects Liza to be a ballerina. She can be sexy and cool and different - but she needs more complexity in her skating and choreography and more polished, purposeful execution. I think Shae-Lynn would be great for Liza. But it doesn't really matter what choreographer she goes to if Mishin waters down the programs.

 

[tinybluemoon]

Will the entire junior team consist of Eteri girls, or will the federation not do that? This year, what if they don’t have a choice?

I think it depends how they do at jgpf and jn. The only other skater I would say realistically has a chance is Alena Kanysheva depending on how she places at both competitions. And even then I'm not sure if they will push her ahead of the other 3 if they score well because she is so young. If they absolutely won't have 3 from the same rink it will be her that goes in their place but it's looking more and more likely that it will be 3A. And I would think the other coaches should be encouraging it because it also greatly increases the likelihood of all three moving up next season which will leave more room for their skaters to succeed.

 

[esteticlove]

No one wants or expects Liza to be a ballerina. She can be sexy and cool and different - but she needs more complexity in her skating and choreography and more polished, purposeful execution. I think Shae-Lynn would be great for Liza. But it doesn't really matter what choreographer she goes to if Mishin waters down the programs.

Yes, also this! I don't want her to be balletic and lyrical at all, we see already too much of this style anyway. Honestly, I think something like Osmond's french themed SP would be quite fitting - it was fun and light, jumps were on the music notes, she also didn't have too much transitions but used the "quiet" parts to show her edge work and to impress with her personality on the ice. I do believe that Tuktamysheva could successfully pull out all of those things and when we think about it, the main changes should be done on the choreography (and not really on the jumps or even that much on the transitions in between). So, it shouldn't be that demanding at the end. Still, Mishin is a profesionalist and he knows what he's doing. Hopefully, he'll find some courage to overcome his pride for only perfect technique and gives Liza a chance to become one really memorable skater.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think pretty much everyone sees this. What I don’t think people agree on is to what degree. I personally don’t think they balance out. In fact I’d probably give about a 5-10 pt advantage to Liza when considering the total score over two programs. To be more clear what I would remove from Liza’s PCS would be less than what I would take from Satokos TES. I understand this isn’t how judging works so this is just for the sake of discussion this is only my scorecard ...... I realize that. I don’t think it’s unfair and certainly wouldn’t consider it hate. I’m fine with Satoko getting some of the highest PCS and she has several programs high on my favorites list. That doesn’t mean I think she should be so far ahead with PCS in the FS over someone like Liza that Liza’s jumps can’t trump it. I actually think Satoko’s presentation and overall impression is harmed by her jumps the same as I think Liza’s Jumps improve her impression. YMMV

Totally fair. For the record, I think the silver could have gone either way. Both were fantastic skates, SP&LP. And the 219's reflect that. Satoko had more technical errors, but they didn't compromise the performance (like ! and <; no stepouts or falls). On the basis of program composition and everything outside the jumps, I would have to personally give the edge to Satoko.

 

[Lightstar]

I think it depends how they do at jgpf and jn. The only other skater I would say realistically has a chance is Alena Kanysheva depending on how she places at both competitions. And even then I'm not sure if they will push her ahead of the other 3 if they score well because she is so young. If they absolutely won't have 3 from the same rink it will be her that goes in their place but it's looking more and more likely that it will be 3A. And I would think the other coaches should be encouraging it because it also greatly increases the likelihood of all three moving up next season which will leave more room for their skaters to succeed.

Don‘t you think Anastasia tarakanova has a Chance?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about Tuktamysheva. On the one hand, she has great technique on most of the jumps (if not on all of them) and is a pleasure to watch her landing them clean. My favourite combination is her 3T-3T in the short program, at NHK it was awesome. I also wondered why her GOEs were so low, in comparison not nly with Satoko but with Kihira, too. The set-up for the jumping pass wasn't any longer than the ones of the other ladies. In my opinion, she's one of the very few who manages to get so quickly into the -3T, without getting off axis but still keeping a decent height. Honestly, I could actually only think of Trusova executing her 3Lz-3Lo this way. For me personally, this is what a quality jump/combination should look like and therefore it should be properly rewarded.

On the other hand, there's the issue with the presentation. And here comes the bizarre thing for me. I watched her programs at NHK and I could definitely see that Liza is a performer, she takes pleasure in her skating and enjoys the contact with the audience. So, it's not as if she wasn't interpreting her programs well. But still there's an enormous incoherence into them. It feels like jump - clap with the hands - stop *jump* - repeat. Also, I don't think that the lack of transitions in and out of her jumps is the biggest problem. It's more likely her StSq (although I think she got a Lvl4), she really does a lot of two-foot-skating and I always have the feeling as if I am waiting for something to happen, but this big thing doesn't come. At the end, if we compare her full program with a full program of some other skaters (Satoko in the recent case) it's obviously that there are a lot of things lacking. This issue, however, should most probably be addressed to Mishin and his choreographers and not Liza. If he wants big results for her, they have to show the full packaging.

Bingo. Sorry Mishin, but your skater can't just do all the big jumps and then automatically win. There needs to be better packaging - not just intricacy in choreography, but like, more extension, less two-footed skating, better spins - because now the system takes everything into account, and a clean or close to clean skate with a triple axel doesn't guarantee a win (although two triple axels might! ).

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Actually, I think it’s possible that the federation won’t send all Eteri girls to JW. Right? I guess? I don’t know! But if that’s the idea, which of the 3A gets knocked off the junior team?? Uh oh. On second thought, maybe the federation WILL actually send all Eteri girls. I know that there are plenty of other options (Kanysheva, Guliakova, Gubanova, Tarakanova, Tarusina) but none of them are favorites of the federation. And being well-liked plays a big part in whether you’re chosen to be on the team.

 

[vesperalvioletta]

Don‘t you think Anastasia tarakanova has a Chance?

I was thinking that too. Tarakanova has more international experience and if she can get her triple-triple done in the short, I think she'll outscore Kanysheva. If they want to sweep the podium they'd be foolish to send anyone other than Eteri's three girls though. Ye-lim, and on a good day, Yuhana Yokoi, are capable of outscoring both Tarakanova and Kanysheva.

If they choose not to send all three uber-juniors, I think it'll sadly be Alena who doesn't make the cut :sad21:

 

[moriel]

Actually, I think it’s possible that the federation won’t send all Eteri girls to JW. Right? I guess? I don’t know! But if that’s the idea, which of the 3A gets knocked off the junior team?? Uh oh. On second thought, maybe the federation WILL actually send all Eteri girls. I know that there are plenty of other options (Kanysheva, Guliakova, Gubanova, Tarakanova, Tarusina) but none of them are favorites of the federation. And being well-liked plays a big part in whether you’re chosen to be on the team.

This year is pretty interesting actually.
They would knock one of the eteri girls if, for example, Buyanova had decent juniors. For example, if Gubanova is clean, i see them sending her and not Kostornaia (or shcherbakova if Anna makes enough mistakes)
Tarakanova... Plushy is nobody as coach, not sure if they would bother knocking Eteri's girls for him.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

No one wants or expects Liza to be a ballerina. She can be sexy and cool and different - but she needs more complexity in her skating and choreography and more polished, purposeful execution. I think Shae-Lynn would be great for Liza. But it doesn't really matter what choreographer she goes to if Mishin waters down the programs.

I couldn't have said this better, especially about her needing more polish and purpose. It's frustrating that she hasn't made much progress in these areas over the years.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

This year is pretty interesting actually.
They would knock one of the eteri girls if, for example, Buyanova had decent juniors. For example, if Gubanova is clean, i see them sending her and not Kostornaia (or shcherbakova if Anna makes enough mistakes)
Tarakanova... Plushy is nobody as coach, not sure if they would bother knocking Eteri's girls for him.

But Gubanova's only skating at senior nationals, do you think they would still do it then?

 

[Ophelia]

I couldn't have said this better, especially about her needing more polish and purpose. It's frustrating that she hasn't made much progress in these areas over the years.

Is it really that hard to improve on polish and purpose? Surely it takes less time than perfecting jumps, which is why I'm befuddled by Tukt/Mishin's absolute lack of investment in that area.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

But Gubanova's only skating at senior nationals, do you think they would still do it then?

Is she entered at a Challenger event as a senior?

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Is she entered at a Challenger event as a senior?

Yes. Golden Spin right?

 

[alpaca]

I was thinking that too. Tarakanova has more international experience and if she can get her triple-triple done in the short, I think she'll outscore Kanysheva. If they want to sweep the podium they'd be foolish to send anyone other than Eteri's three girls though. Ye-lim, and on a good day, Yuhana Yokoi, are capable of outscoring both Tarakanova and Kanysheva.

If they choose not to send all three uber-juniors, I think it'll sadly be Alena who doesn't make the cut :sad21:

While I sadly think that you may be right about Alena not making the cut if Fed decides to not send all three Eteri girls, I hope they do consider the fact that Anna at least internationally has not really performed amazingly compared to Alena, despite domestically there were other scores (although I tend to think that domestic scores are usually more bias and pretty generous).
Although quads gets you more points and can really save you to get higher scores even with a fall, at the end of the day just in general, I'd rather see a clean and beautifully executed Alena program with no quad than a messy Anna or even Sasha for that matter with two or three quads, even if the latter two get higher scores. I feel like this is the messy part about BV, since in one sense, I understand their high value due to difficulty performing them but on the other hand, I have mixed feelings about ending up rewarding much messier programs instead of cleanly executed programs (taking into account that choreo and all are on the same high level).

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Thank you for perfectly expressing how I feel! She's very charismatic and a great performer, and I think she really gets into feeling her music, too. But the choreography is not good, and the level of skating is below the other ladies.

Satoko and Liza are especially tough to compare because they are polar opposites in just about every way, including the type of performer they are and the types of programs they excel at.

No one wants or expects Liza to be a ballerina. She can be sexy and cool and different - but she needs more complexity in her skating and choreography and more polished, purposeful execution. I think Shae-Lynn would be great for Liza. But it doesn't really matter what choreographer she goes to if Mishin waters down the programs.

It is not really the choreo problem per se. I remember when i watched young Liza and Sotnikova in one competition, Sotnikova was milles ahead in basic skating and figures she can do on the ice. With Liza a lot of things didn't look 'natural'... But (and this is a big but) she is a great performer and she has great connection with the audience, so in my opinion her Performance score should be very very high, even higher than Satoko's last time they skated head to head. But it still appears she needs to work in other parts of the components.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Yes. Golden Spin right?

Both Tallinn Trophy and Golden Spin.