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Thank you so much for this post. I love it and want to marry it. It's like a miracle of good sense.
Women and the Quad
- Thread starter gsk8
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Thank you so much for this post. I love it and want to marry it. It's like a miracle of good sense.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2014
Has Eteri led any of her students through a full quad in seniors from juniors?
Yulia: Had a breakout in her full senior eligible season and won OTGM, started to struggle with jumps in 2014-2015, switched to Urmanov the following season
Adian: Made it onto the Euro's team first year in seniors, struggles in 2015-2016 including a very painful performance at Russian Nats, switched to Buianova in the offseason
Evgenia: Two seasons of glory in seniors, struggles with a foot injury during the Olympic season, switched to Orser in the offseason
Alina: Olympic Champion during senior debut season, starts to struggle at Worlds and the following season and starts practicing quads???, TBD
The trend speaks for itself. Perhaps Alina should get ahead and start making arrangements with Chebotareva during Euros.
Yulia: Had a breakout in her full senior eligible season and won OTGM, started to struggle with jumps in 2014-2015, switched to Urmanov the following season
Adian: Made it onto the Euro's team first year in seniors, struggles in 2015-2016 including a very painful performance at Russian Nats, switched to Buianova in the offseason
Evgenia: Two seasons of glory in seniors, struggles with a foot injury during the Olympic season, switched to Orser in the offseason
Alina: Olympic Champion during senior debut season, starts to struggle at Worlds and the following season and starts practicing quads???, TBD
The trend speaks for itself. Perhaps Alina should get ahead and start making arrangements with Chebotareva during Euros.
The woman who has only ever coached two elite skaters, both of whom are still competing? :noshake: Bizarre suggestion. We know even less about her success rate with senior ladies than we do about Eteri’s.
There are arguments to be made in favor of a coaching change. But they should be made after the season is over, depending on how Alina is looking and what her own wishes and goals are. Unfortunately, it is impossible to take your posts as genuine concern when you and a certain other user have been gloating about Alina's Worlds performance ever since it happened. I am no Eteri fan, but I am not watching every Zagitova outing with bated breath, hoping she falls apart so I can tell everyone, "I told you so."
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Or perhaps we should give Alina.......wait for it.......time!
eteri's track record with seniors probably has less to do with her capabilities and more to do with the fact that she starts coaching skaters from a very young age. people change coaches all the time, most senior skaters stay with their coaches for shorter periods of time then eteri's skaters have stayed with her. zhenya was with her for like a decade or something? before making a move. yuna stayed for orser for only 4 years, which sure it's a full quad, but it's nothing compared to a decade. i'm sure the amount of talented juniors eteri has also plays a role in whether or not her senior skaters stay.
we'd probably have a better idea of whether or not eteri could coach a senior through a full quad if she didn't coach as many juniors as she does. but with the 3A moving to seniors, alina, moris, elizabet and erokhov this will probably be the first time she has had so many seniors. it'll be interesting to see if they last a full quad. but even if they don't i don't think this scenario is really comparable to coaches like orser, mishin, etc who don't have a bunch of juniors just waiting to take over. i think the important thing is that the team clearly doesn't want to give up on any of their seniors, but sometimes there's nothing you can do if it just doesn't work out
Had Eteri time to lead her students through a full quad? Keep in mind she coaches for basically 2 quads now, and that she started working with juniors.
Morisi Kvitelashvili
He started training with Eteri in 2009, so she has led him through two quads, one as a junior, one as a senior.
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Any ladies?
ETA: and I should say that some of Morisi's programs I really enjoyed and a great example: long career, no Worlds medals, not important, who cares?
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What if Daniil broke off from Eteri took Alina and started his own thing. That would be crazy [emoji12]. Who knows!?
it'd be even more dramatic and messy compared to the eteri/zhenya split! if daniil and eteri are friendly enough that he tags along on vacations there would have to be a huge falling out for them to split. i'm kinda curious about how they would deal with it but i think the skaters would not survive a feud like that
my two cents is that we don't know what's going on over at Alina's practices, we don't know what goes on while the 3A are practicing every day. In my opinion it's good to have the benefit of the doubt especially when discussing sports.
It's true that Eteri hasn't retained many senior ladies for too long but you should remember Eteri is generally a new-ish coach and the careers of female skaters have always been shorter compared to pairs, men, and ID. In the same way people say that Alina/Zhenya/Liza need/needed time, maybe Eteri's team needs time as well. In my opinion, the Spartan training schedules and techniques that her team employs is not sustainable but hey, the closest I ever got to being a competitive anything was in my high school drama class so who am I to judge?
TBH if Alina wasn't happy she wouldn't stay with Eteri or keep on going through a 'rough' season (which, I guess winning both GPs and being a GPF silver medalist is Alina's version of a sophomore slump, her trash is literally other skaters' treasure figuratively speaking)
And while it's good to have the benefit of the doubt when discussing these kinds of matters I do think there is a line between giving 'benefit of the doubt' and 'excusing vague yet awful behavior'
It's true that Eteri hasn't retained many senior ladies for too long but you should remember Eteri is generally a new-ish coach and the careers of female skaters have always been shorter compared to pairs, men, and ID. In the same way people say that Alina/Zhenya/Liza need/needed time, maybe Eteri's team needs time as well. In my opinion, the Spartan training schedules and techniques that her team employs is not sustainable but hey, the closest I ever got to being a competitive anything was in my high school drama class so who am I to judge?
TBH if Alina wasn't happy she wouldn't stay with Eteri or keep on going through a 'rough' season (which, I guess winning both GPs and being a GPF silver medalist is Alina's version of a sophomore slump, her trash is literally other skaters' treasure figuratively speaking)
And while it's good to have the benefit of the doubt when discussing these kinds of matters I do think there is a line between giving 'benefit of the doubt' and 'excusing vague yet awful behavior'
I don't think he has enough skills in jumps to be the main coach of a skater of that caliber and who has those issues.
Honestly i don't know who can do a better work with her tham team Tutberidze if she leaves right now.
LOL. Seems like you are wishing her the worst.
I agree with what you and moriel have written about this issue. But I'm afraid rational discussion is useless against whishful thinkink and perhaps double standards. People often speak about longevity and career, but what does it mean? They probably mean career with winning and medals, but to be honest, that's not the issue with many skaters in contemporary figure skating. The really only lady who could fit those measures would be Carolina Kostner, but she has the benefit of not having nearly any competitor on her level at home, she didn't have to struggle in domestic competitions as much and could afford to prepare for important international events. Also, today even her would probably haven't her uninterrupted line of european and world medals as there are many more skaters internationally on the same or higher level (in overall scoring) than during her most succesful seasons. And even her was changing coaches, it's not like there is a coach that would represent ideal for longevity skaters. The longest time as far as I'm aware she spent with Michael Huth, with whom she has trained (unsurprisingly) since her junior times.
So, all those proposals omit some important facts.
Long career does not automatically mean succesful career.
There is probably not a single coach that could be assurance for any lady skater to provide long AND succesful career, if they consider succeesful career as having medal from every competition for more than one olympic cycle.
For me personally not having gold (or even any other medal) from every competition is not a matter of not having succesful career. Esp. when we see how during last 30 yeasr the post-omlympic season looked like for OGM winner ladies.
We can look e. g. at Kaetlyn Osmond. She became senior during 2012-2013 season, so five seasons till the olympic 2017-2018, but till 2016-2017 season she had practically zero succes in important international competitions. That's like four seasons. Is she considered like having succesful career or not? But I doubt there were such wild proposals of changing coaches and all, even if she didn't win a single GP medal. Alina, since her entrance among seniors, had one int. competition where she didn't medal at all and one where she won "only" silver and people are like crazy about it. I don't think the motivation for new and new proposals about chaning the coach have anything to do with wishing her succesful career, because there are many skaters (literally everyone who skated for a longer time) who did not medal at every (sometimes at many) competition and nobody is or was worrying about their longevity.
And remember that we are reminded that Alina/Alyona/any other skater of Eteri should "change choreographer or maybe even coach" like three times a week, because we could probably forget that
In this completely hypothetical issue, if we would consider Russia, Davydov seems to be good, but he also have not much experience (if any) with senior ladies. Plushenko is still a question, and Mishin in St. Petersburg is probably out of a question completely (and the more any coach abroad, realistically).
Davydov is a good jump coach but as you said he works more with juniors.
With Mishin, not a bad idea, he can fix her jumps, but it will take a good amount of time to get back solid jumps. More, Mishin skaters are not known for good skating skills or good bladework, but for hands choreos.
Plushenko.....though with Tarakanova it works more or less, she's junior.
Mishin is not a fan of taking older skaters.
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I'm glad that people are mentioning skaters who have been with their coaches since juniors. In the cases of Caro, Liza, and Kaetlyn, they have been through a series of highs and also lows including injuries, with some potentially career-ending and have managed to return stronger and more defiant than before. Caro, who is consistently being discounted by some for coming from a less competitive domestic field, has won Euro and World medals and an Olympic medal over the span of more than a decade, triumphing over the best ladies in the World. Her talent, good technique, skating skills, artistry, and love for the sport contributes to a successful career that is spanning longer than the age of most of the young ladies competing on the circuit.
Through the help of Ravi, Kaetlyn has recovered from a potentially career-ending injury and not wanting to skate again to World Champion three years later. Kaetlyn also had problems with her edge on the Lutz but has continually worked on improving it with Ravi, instead of just shoving it under the rug like some coaches. And she also added the 3Lo to her free skate, which became one of her best jumps at Worlds and Olympics. Liza is remarkable for her resurgence after three years of relative regression, skating even better than when she won her World title in 2015. She is a role model for Russian skaters.
Unfortunately, no examples can be mentioned for Eteri in terms of leading ladies through a full quad in seniors. Yulia and Zhenya, among others have left with health complications. Other coaches have tried/are trying to help her skaters rehabilitate and rework technique, cleaning up her messes. Zhenya, instead of practicing a quad salchow now, are making improvements to her 2A and other triples first, including improving her 3S enough to add a 3Lo at the end. Orser is building a more solid foundation for her triples instead of capitalizing on the tech panel on turning a blind eye, as was too common under Eteri.
Through the help of Ravi, Kaetlyn has recovered from a potentially career-ending injury and not wanting to skate again to World Champion three years later. Kaetlyn also had problems with her edge on the Lutz but has continually worked on improving it with Ravi, instead of just shoving it under the rug like some coaches. And she also added the 3Lo to her free skate, which became one of her best jumps at Worlds and Olympics. Liza is remarkable for her resurgence after three years of relative regression, skating even better than when she won her World title in 2015. She is a role model for Russian skaters.
Unfortunately, no examples can be mentioned for Eteri in terms of leading ladies through a full quad in seniors. Yulia and Zhenya, among others have left with health complications. Other coaches have tried/are trying to help her skaters rehabilitate and rework technique, cleaning up her messes. Zhenya, instead of practicing a quad salchow now, are making improvements to her 2A and other triples first, including improving her 3S enough to add a 3Lo at the end. Orser is building a more solid foundation for her triples instead of capitalizing on the tech panel on turning a blind eye, as was too common under Eteri.
Nice understatement.
All coaches you talked about are not only older than Eteri, but are also coaching for longer time and are working with seniors for longer than Eteri.
You are praising other skaters for staying with their coaches despite regressing, and are praising their coaches as well for having students who struggled during several seasons but came back. You are prasing them because they took the time to work and come back. But you doesn't want to give Eteri and Zagitova the time to work and come back (if we can call doing better than two GP golds and a silver at GPF a "comeback).
How fair.
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