Pre-rotation

[andromache]

I feel like Medevedeva has quite a toe hammer in her jumps, IMO.

I'm really bad at seeing prerotation unless someone has those videos that are really zoomed in on the skater's feet in slow-mo - I seem to recall seeing several of Satoko maybe two seasons ago?

Seriously though - if we are going to discuss prerotation, can someone knowledgeable explain what it is, how to see it, as well as examples?

 

[Lunalovesskating]

For me the worst prerotation is Shoma Uno's 4 Flip. 3/4 prerotation is just too much for me to handle lol

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ok. I would suggest that we compare Konstantinova's and Linfor's 3Lz-3T combo from the European's FS. There's less than .5 point difference between those combos. It should be more imo.

Hmm...here is the GOE I’d give those jumps.

Stasya +1 (I started at +3 but reduced -2 for the combo landing)
Viveca +4 (mostly because the height on the first but she hooked a bit on the landing)

Feel free to check my math because it may be inaccurate.

Stasya 3z-3t BV (10.10) with +1 GOE (1.01) = 11.01

Viveca 3z-3t BV (10.10) with +4 GOE (4.46) = 14.56

Now let’s pretend a judge is stingier than me and only awards Viveca +2

Viveca 3z-3t BV (10.10 m) with +2 GOE (2.02) = 12.12


I still think Stasya getting 11.01 and Viveca 12.12 accurately reflects enough of the visible qualities of those two jumps to be satisfactory.. No BV adjustment necessary. YMMV.

I feel the same about Pre-rotation. GOE has enough range to accurately depict noticeable errors. Maybe the judges need to do better but that’s a different issue. The system is there to address this stuff.

 

[Charlotte 71]

They should definitely ease up on UR penalties IMO. If it’s a noticeable and consistent (constant) hooking I doubt the judges are giving high GOE anyway but should be expected to reduce it. I think the quarter turn landing slow motion nitpicking is a huge turn off!!

I think they should ease up on the UR penalties too, or keep 1/4 turn as the standard, because 1/4 turn or greater is usually pretty visible. If it is not noticeable to the naked eye while watching in real time, and if the landing has speed and flow, maybe the jump shouldn't be dissected. It seems there is no way to apply the penalties evenly and consistently, so otherwise wonderful skaters get over-penalized while others skate by. It becomes just another form of favoritism.

For pre-rotation, jumps, especially salchow and toe loop have pre-rotation built into the takeoff - it's a factor of the momentum of the free leg in the jump. You can tell egregiously pre-rotated double toe loops by the "toe Axel" look of them, which is sometimes a problem when they're first being learned, and salchows you pretty much assume up to 180 degree pre-rotation. It's the nature of the jump and why it's usually the first double learned. If it's not noticeably diminishing the quality of the jump, why are we so worried about it? You can tell the jumps that go straight up and really float, versus those with twisty, leveraged takeoffs and labored rotations, and the former are usually well rewarded by GOE or should be.

You want to see cheated jumps go back on youtube to the 60s and early 70s and watch some of the ladies' double Axels. With few exceptions, they're slightly over-rotated Axels with an extra half turn or more on the ice. Skating has come a long way, and with the over-focus on URs and pre-rotation, maybe we're making it too difficult on ourselves.

 

[bobbob]

No prerotation thread is complete without discussion of Shoma Uno. His quad flip is the single most prerotated jump I've ever seen.

I think it might be causing him to get URs though. At the GPF, his 4F got called, even though the landing looked OK. Perhaps it was the PR!

 

[figurefan0726]

Russian juniors and some seniors have terrible pre-rotation. Some examples are Alexandra Trusova and Stanislava Konstantinova. The only one I can really think of that barely has pre-rotation is Alena Kostornaia.

In Japan, Satoko Miyahara has the worst pre-rotation out of all.

In the US, none really, except a few by Alysa Liu when I saw her skates from Nationals.

 

[figurefan0726]

Several of my favorites did it them. Kanako Murakami comes to mind. Even Li Zijun has a bit of a toe hammer thing going on. I’m trying to remember the American I’d always see at Nats doing them. Caroline Zhang?

Haha yes, Caroline Zhang on her flip.

 

[figurefan0726]

Hmm...here is the GOE I’d give those jumps.

Stasya +1 (I started at +3 but reduced -2 for the combo landing)
Viveca +4 (mostly because the height on the first but she hooked a bit on the landing)

Feel free to check my math because it may be inaccurate.

Stasya 3z-3t BV (10.10) with +1 GOE (1.01) = 11.01

Viveca 3z-3t BV (10.10) with +4 GOE (4.46) = 14.56

Now let’s pretend a judge is stingier than me and only awards Viveca +2

Viveca 3z-3t BV (10.10 m) with +2 GOE (2.02) = 12.12


I still think Stasya getting 11.01 and Viveca 12.12 accurately reflects enough of the visible qualities of those two jumps to be satisfactory.. No BV adjustment necessary. YMMV.

I feel the same about Pre-rotation. GOE has enough range to accurately depict noticeable errors. Maybe the judges need to do better but that’s a different issue. The system is there to address this stuff.

Sorry, but Viveca cannot get 4.46 GOE with a +4. The GOE is based on the higher value jump and the maximum you can get for a 3Lz+3T is +2.95 GOE for straight +5s, which is 50% of the 3Lz’s base value.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Sorry, but Viveca cannot get 4.46 GOE with a +4. The GOE is based on the higher value jump and the maximum you can get for a 3Lz+3T is +2.95 GOE for straight +5s, which is 50% of the 3Lz’s base value.

Thanks...I wasn’t sure how that worked ...hehe.

 

[lzxnl]

Russian juniors and some seniors have terrible pre-rotation. Some examples are Alexandra Trusova and Stanislava Konstantinova. The only one I can really think of that barely has pre-rotation is Alena Kostornaia.

In Japan, Satoko Miyahara has the worst pre-rotation out of all.

In the US, none really, except a few by Alysa Liu when I saw her skates from Nationals.

Alena's JGPF FS has a few prerotated toe jumps. Her toeloops and flips are prerotated just like Sasha's, although her flip doesn't use the full blade. You can see her turn her body to face forwards before taking off.

 

[cohkaix]

To be honest, Mao never bothered me. But still her toe jumps could have looked even more elegant.

I think Mao's toe jumps got improved after she switched to Coach Sato. But on the other hand when she started training with Sato, the only toe jump she had was in the 2A-3T combination. And another hammer-toe case should go to Kanako Murakami. I did see Kanako's toe jump LIVE while she was competitive (the year she won 4CC) but it/they were fine and you just feel the power transferred into jumping the jump.

 

[solani]

Hmm...here is the GOE I’d give those jumps.

Stasya +1 (I started at +3 but reduced -2 for the combo landing)
Viveca +4 (mostly because the height on the first but she hooked a bit on the landing)

Feel free to check my math because it may be inaccurate.

Stasya 3z-3t BV (10.10) with +1 GOE (1.01) = 11.01

Viveca 3z-3t BV (10.10) with +4 GOE (4.46) = 14.56

Now let’s pretend a judge is stingier than me and only awards Viveca +2

Viveca 3z-3t BV (10.10 m) with +2 GOE (2.02) = 12.12


I still think Stasya getting 11.01 and Viveca 12.12 accurately reflects enough of the visible qualities of those two jumps to be satisfactory.. No BV adjustment necessary. YMMV.

I feel the same about Pre-rotation. GOE has enough range to accurately depict noticeable errors. Maybe the judges need to do better but that’s a different issue. The system is there to address this stuff.

I wouldn't start with +3 for Konstantinova, because she doesn't deserve good take-off and landing. The prerotation on the lutz is very visible in real time. I would give her +2. Then I'd deduct -2 for the landing, so the combo would get 0. Linfors should get +2 to +3 more than 'Konstantinova imo. I looked that up - should be 1.18 - 1.77 points more than Konstantinova in GOE for that combo. So if the system would be applied like that it would be ok with me. But Linfors received less than .5 points more than Konstantinova, that's just not enough imo. If both executed the combo as best as they can, Linfors should still receive +2 more. And I don't think I would be very harsh on Konstantinova applying the system like that.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Alena's JGPF FS has a few prerotated toe jumps. Her toeloops and flips are prerotated just like Sasha's, although her flip doesn't use the full blade. You can see her turn her body to face forwards before taking off.

That amount of Pre-Rotation (Sasha and Alena) is normal, acceptable, and allowed under the current rules. Nothing about full blade in the rules either but I don’t believe it’s actaully happening anyway. Don’t believe what you see people spreading on the internet. Go by what the ISU is ratifying and if you’re lucky enough what you see people do on the ice every day in person with real coaches. That’s the truth. Minimizing Pre Rotation may get extra GOE if a judge feels compelled to award it and finds it improves jump quality. Doing noticeable Pre-Rotation to a point where it affects the aesthetics of a jump negatively may cause some judges to reduce GOE. You’re talking as if facing near or at about 180 at takeoff isn’t allowed but that isn’t reality nor is that the standard and nor has it ever been.

I’m not sure if there is a skater competing today I can think of in Ladies I couldn’t make a video of that shows them taking off at or around 180 degrees (not edge jumps either) Some people just specialize for some reason and try to pick on a select few.

ETA: I’m trying not to sound grumpy but please pardon me if it comes across that way, It’s 4am and I have no idea why I woke up in the middle of the night and checked my phone

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I wouldn't start with +3 for Konstantinova, because she doesn't deserve good take-off and landing. The prerotation on the lutz is very visible in real time. I would give her +2. Then I'd deduct -2 for the landing, so the combo would get 0. Linfors should get +2 to +3 more than 'Konstantinova imo. I looked that up - should be 1.18 - 1.77 points more than Konstantinova in GOE for that combo. So if the system would be applied like that it would be ok with me. But Linfors received less than .5 points more than Konstantinova, that's just not enough imo. If both executed the combo as best as they can, Linfors should still receive +2 more. And I don't think I would be very harsh on Konstantinova applying the system like that.

I don’t necessarily disagree although the prerotation of Stasya hardly bothers me much and both skaters sort of landed around the same mark although Stasya was a few degrees shorter in slow motion.

I think the ISU really needs to make it clear to judges that the tech panel isn’t looking for prerotaion and that if they see it and feel it hurts a jump then they are the ones who need to address it. Adding simple launguage to the ISU communications addressing Jump GOE could really have a strong impact. Just something simple like:

Noticable and disruptive Pre-Rotation at take off -1 to -3 (Final GOE not required to be negative)

I truly believe that GOE is more than enough to handle PR and that basing it on real time judging is sufficient. The last thing we need is more slow motion dissections by technical panels IMO. If it takes slow motion to spot it I’m just not convinced we need to be concerned. Ironically enough watching slow motion videos...including my own at one point...made me see how petty we’ve become with this stuff.

ETA: I’m trying not to sound grumpy but please pardon me if it comes across that way, It’s 4am and I have no idea why I woke up in the middle of the night and checked my phone

 

[solani]

I don’t necessarily disagree although the prerotation of Stasya hardly bothers me much and both skaters sort of landed around the same mark although Stasya was a few degrees shorter in slow motion.

I think the ISU really needs to make it clear to judges that the tech panel isn’t looking for prerotaion and that if they see it and feel it hurts a jump then they are the ones who need to address it. Adding simple launguage to the ISU communications addressing Jump GOE could really have a strong impact. Just something simple like:

Noticable and disruptive Pre-Rotation at take off -1 to -3 (Final GOE not required to be negative)

I truly believe that GOE is more than enough to handle PR and that basing it on real time judging is sufficient. The last thing we need is more slow motion dissections by technical panels IMO. If it takes slow motion to spot it I’m just not convinced we need to be concerned. Ironically enough watching slow motion videos...including my own at one point...made me see how petty we’ve become with this stuff.

ETA: I’m trying not to sound grumpy but please pardon me if it comes across that way, It’s 4am and I have no idea why I woke up in the middle of the night and checked my phone

I also don't care much for this full blade discussion. But I believe that the tech panels should catch some prerotations, really obvious forward take-offs on toe jumps. When the whole body faces forwards on take-off (Uno sometimes does that when he's doing his quad flip, when it's visible in realtime that should be a downgrade imo, but he doesn't always do it to that extend).
I agree with the rest. Konstantinova's lutz bothers me enought to deduct her for it, but it's not a poor jump. She get's good spring, it's just moments too late for my taste.

If the ISU would really want to do something against prerotation, they would have to implement the rule change more than 8 years in advance imo. Skaters and coaches need the time to adjust.
I hated it when the ISU started with edge calls less than 4 years before the next Olympics. Mao was a victim of that policy.

 

[lzxnl]

I don’t necessarily disagree although the prerotation of Stasya hardly bothers me much and both skaters sort of landed around the same mark although Stasya was a few degrees shorter in slow motion.

I think the ISU really needs to make it clear to judges that the tech panel isn’t looking for prerotaion and that if they see it and feel it hurts a jump then they are the ones who need to address it. Adding simple launguage to the ISU communications addressing Jump GOE could really have a strong impact. Just something simple like:

Noticable and disruptive Pre-Rotation at take off -1 to -3 (Final GOE not required to be negative)

I truly believe that GOE is more than enough to handle PR and that basing it on real time judging is sufficient. The last thing we need is more slow motion dissections by technical panels IMO. If it takes slow motion to spot it I’m just not convinced we need to be concerned. Ironically enough watching slow motion videos...including my own at one point...made me see how petty we’ve become with this stuff.

ETA: I’m trying not to sound grumpy but please pardon me if it comes across that way, It’s 4am and I have no idea why I woke up in the middle of the night and checked my phone

We check for underrotation in slow motion, and that's essentially the same thing; you didn't complete the jump with the right number of revolutions. These are things that you need to check in slow motion. Often, in the one replay, you can check for prerotation AND underrotation. Just have separate people in the tech panel monitor this. Figure skating is a sport that is known for its technicality; why else would we care about flutzes? I do wish ISU would directly address this issue and state clearly what their stance is, because in past communications they've asked for a downgrade on a clear forward takeoff.

Tomoe Kawabata's 3Lz+3T in her Bratislava JGP 2018 FS is an example of how little prerotation toe jumps should have. I remember seeing ISU jump simulations that showed similar levels of prerotation. https://youtu.be/rbsykwNS8J4?t=51

 

[solani]

Tomoe Kawabata's 3Lz+3T in her Bratislava JGP 2018 FS is an example of how little prerotation toe jumps should have. I remember seeing ISU jump simulations that showed similar levels of prerotation. https://youtu.be/rbsykwNS8J4?t=51

Oh, she's never really caught my attention until now! She jumps just like Yuna!

 

[lzxnl]

That amount of Pre-Rotation (Sasha and Alena) is normal, acceptable, and allowed under the current rules. Nothing about full blade in the rules either but I don’t believe it’s actaully happening anyway. Don’t believe what you see people spreading on the internet. Go by what the ISU is ratifying and if you’re lucky enough what you see people do on the ice every day in person with real coaches. That’s the truth. Minimizing Pre Rotation may get extra GOE if a judge feels compelled to award it and finds it improves jump quality. Doing noticeable Pre-Rotation to a point where it affects the aesthetics of a jump negatively may cause some judges to reduce GOE. You’re talking as if facing near or at about 180 at takeoff isn’t allowed but that isn’t reality nor is that the standard and nor has it ever been.

I’m not sure if there is a skater competing today I can think of in Ladies I couldn’t make a video of that shows them taking off at or around 180 degrees (not edge jumps either) Some people just specialize for some reason and try to pick on a select few.

ETA: I’m trying not to sound grumpy but please pardon me if it comes across that way, It’s 4am and I have no idea why I woke up in the middle of the night and checked my phone

Oh, she's never really caught my attention until now! She jumps just like Yuna!

This right here is what I reckon should be the current gold standard for a lutz and a toe loop.

 

[chopinskate]

This is a real toe axel: https://youtu.be/uQ97p7BAxbY?t=31

You can look up Mao's, too, it's been discussed a few times on this website. Although that one was worse.

How is that different to the forward takeoff I've been describing on 3Ts? Mao's video was on a lutz, and you can't really call it a toe axel if you're jumping off the right foot (it's still overly prerotated though, I agree).

Notice how Mai Asada pre-rotates on her skating foot before she even picks in. She almost looks like she's jumping off both feet. Compare that to Kihira who, well, doesn't do that. Her skating foot is still square in front of her as she picks in.

Mao Asada has a (somewhat less bad) toe axel here: https://youtu.be/XbPbbUeQ3Kw?t=148 She corrected it during her first season with Raf.

Oh, she's never really caught my attention until now! She jumps just like Yuna!

Want to help here?

 

[lzxnl]

Notice how Mai Asada pre-rotates on her skating foot before she even picks in. She almost looks like she's jumping off both feet. Compare that to Kihira who, well, doesn't do that. Her skating foot is still square in front of her as she picks in.

Mao Asada has a (somewhat less bad) toe axel here: https://youtu.be/XbPbbUeQ3Kw?t=148 She corrected it during her first season with Raf.



Want to help here?

I don't disagree with what you've shown me; those are certainly instances of prerotation that should be called out. I can also see what you're alluding to. The difference between Rika's 4T and Mai's 3Lz is that Rika rotates her toe and body after she picks, whereas Mai rotates her body and contorts her picking foot to generate the rotation. Granted, Rika's 4T isn't as bad as Mai's 3Lz here, but it's still faulty technique which may or may not be addressed as time progresses.