Zero prerotation isn't necessary and is probably unrealistic for a lot of skaters. That's why I proposed that skaters with less than 90 PR get rewarded for it and skaters with between 90 and 180 degrees PR have to land the jump with less UR than normally allowed. To allude to what chopinskate said about PR making jumps not look at quads, check out the links I posted above. Nathan's 4T almost looks like a very high triple, whereas Yuzuru's appears to have more rotation, despite both being 4Ts.
Pre-rotation
- Thread starter chopinskate
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Zero prerotation is impossible from a physics point of view. Hanyu minimizes it of course, and that's great, but their are obviously different approaches to every jump type. Look f.e. the salchow take-off that Orser teaches (and where Hanyu learned his quad sal). And let's not forget that skaters have different body types, so different approaches might be absolutely necessary and I don't mind that at all.
But good spring, height, distance and a backward landing should get rewarded.
But good spring, height, distance and a backward landing should get rewarded.
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- Dec 9, 2017
Yes, as I said, this is most important to me too.
They both are quads, yes, but Yuzuru's quad rotates faster because of the extra quarter turn or so. The difference is fairly obvious (to me at least)
I have not the faintest idea what you're talking about.
:scratch:I watched both 4Ts frame by frame and the take-offs are identical, both skaters' toe-picks leave the ice when they're facing forwards with their bodies, both have the same amount of PR.
Although Yuzuru's landing is UR or at least very borderline UR, so it's actually his 4T that has less rotation in the air in total.
(And even if you were right about Yuzuru starting rotation earlier, in that case, because of that UR, his total airtime would actually be the same as Nathan's)
Out of curiosity I also checked examples of toe loops from other comps, with the same result. Sometimes there was less slightly less PR than what can be seen in your examples, but that was true for both of these skaters. So it varies from case to case and also depends on the angle that it's filmed from I guess.
Granted, Yuzuru does have a tendency to sometimes pick in more behind himself/less open to the direction of rotation, but when his blade leaves the ice, he's usually facing just as much forwards with his body as Nathan or many other skaters.
In any case, even if Yuzuru's toe loop picking was more 'pure' than that of others, he would never have an 'extra quarter or so' more, at most it would be something like 30-40°.
I'm also amused at the notion that such a little difference in degrees would be noticeable to a viewer in real time.
IMO excessive PR (as can be mostly seen on flips and lutzes) is usually noticeable not because we see less rotation in the air, but because it lacks that characteristic quick tap with the toe-pick and there's no vaulting impression (making the jumps unattractive imo).
If you want an example of a skater who actually PRs his toe-loops, watch Dmitri Aliev. I was shocked at what his toe loops (especially those second in combination) looked like at Lombardia Trophy.
I have not the faintest idea what you're talking about.
I watched both 4Ts frame by frame and the take-offs are identical, both skaters' toe-picks leave the ice when they're facing forwards with their bodies, both have the same amount of PR.
Although Yuzuru's landing is UR or at least very borderline UR, so it's actually his 4T that has less rotation in the air in total.
(And even if you were right about Yuzuru starting rotation earlier, in that case, because of that UR, his total airtime would actually be the same as Nathan's)
Out of curiosity I also checked examples of toe loops from other comps, with the same result. Sometimes there was less slightly less PR than what can be seen in your examples, but that was true for both of these skaters. So it varies from case to case and also depends on the angle that it's filmed from I guess.
Granted, Yuzuru does have a tendency to sometimes pick in more behind himself/less open to the direction of rotation, but when his blade leaves the ice, he's usually facing just as much forwards with his body as Nathan or many other skaters.
In any case, even if Yuzuru's toe loop picking was more 'pure' than that of others, he would never have an 'extra quarter or so' more, at most it would be something like 30-40°.
I'm also amused at the notion that such a little difference in degrees would be noticeable to a viewer in real time.
IMO excessive PR (as can be mostly seen on flips and lutzes) is usually noticeable not because we see less rotation in the air, but because it lacks that characteristic quick tap with the toe-pick and there's no vaulting impression (making the jumps unattractive imo).
If you want an example of a skater who actually PRs his toe-loops, watch Dmitri Aliev. I was shocked at what his toe loops (especially those second in combination) looked like at Lombardia Trophy.
Yuzuru's 4T was about 30-40 degrees short on rotation. That's fine. He gets into the air at a bit more than 90 degrees. Nathan's pick is still in the ice at 90 and jumps facing forwards. To his credit, he does land with minimal UR. I can't describe why Yuzuru seems to rotate more. When I saw Nathan's 4T, I only knew it was a 4T from reputation; it didn't look like one. That might be a fault of the video quality.
I do agree that prerotation varies between competitions. Nathan's 4T+3T at Worlds 2018 was a fair bit better, so I don't think it's a fundamental technique flaw.
Aliev's SP 4S+3T was ugly af, agreed. I don't even know how prerotated that was. Looked 240 to me.
The lack of tap you mention sounds like full blading the takeoff, which is imo worse.
This was not Yuzuru's best work. Neither Yuzuru nor Nathan have fundamental problems with UR or PR, though they do have problems occasionally.
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- Jul 27, 2003
Nathan's 4T might look like a triple to you because he's able to get tight really fast and his rotations start earlier in the air than others, not because he pre-rotates the jump (everyone pre-rotates the toe by half a turn by nature of the jump) any more than others. A pre-rotated toe/toe axel doesn't look like that. Let's not hint at pre-rotations that don't exist.
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- Dec 9, 2017
I would have used this as a point of comparison: https://youtu.be/-dHlc0hp0Mk?t=40
I agree, would have been a better example.
Prerotation aside, why did that get a +3 from the judges? The lean on the 4T landing was ghastly.
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- Dec 9, 2017
I'm not sure you got the point with it? I was saying using that as a comparison against Chen would have been better, as that wasn't Hanyu's best attempt. His PR is within the limit, and his technique overall is better for the 4T than Chen. It was an amazing 4T, although the landing could have been better.
Chen's does look like a quad, but it looks far less powerful than Kolyada's, precisely because he's trying to achieve the rotational position before he's fully off the ice (his toe loops are slightly spinny), unlike Kolyada who goes up into the air before doing that. His spring is lacking in comparison.
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- Dec 9, 2017
Medvedeva also had consistent jumps.
If a skater wants to do less powerful jumps in trade for consistency, sure, upto them. They can up in their BV what they should be losing in GOE.
If a skater wants to do less powerful jumps in trade for consistency, sure, upto them. They can up in their BV what they should be losing in GOE.
Pretty sure that’s not how it works… I don’t think skaters get to simply choose between a powerful or not-so-powerful jump. At least not when multi-rotational jumps are concerned, whose execution is on the verge of their capabilities.
Sure, they can alter the height and distance of a jump if they have mastered it sufficiently. But that’s not usually the case for quads, for many elite skaters not even triples I would guess.
I see so many male skaters going into their quads with so much power, throwing themselves into those jumps with a lot of force that it’s often even scary to watch, because it looks so out of control.
And quite often they’re not able to land them, landing on the wrong part of the blade, sometimes the rotation in the air was a bit wonky, they fell out of their axis or there’s simply too much momentum for them to handle upon landing. And I see so much energy being expended, but with a lack of sufficient control and precision it seems.
Many of these skaters also run out of breath towards the end of their programs, screwing up even those easier jumping passes, because those quad attempts in the beginning took so much out of them.
I somehow find it hard to imagine, that those skaters are practising these jumps thinking to themselves „Sure I could land that thing consistently if I skated into it slower, didn’t jump as high and went into my backspin position earlier. But I want my jump to look more impressive, so I’ll do it the difficult way, even if that means that I will have a harder time controlling the rotation and the landing and will fall on 2/3 attempts and even though I also don’t have the stamina to skate the rest of my program after that.“
I can’t believe that they wouldn’t happily switch to a more economical and less risky technique, if they had the choice.
My impression is, their rotational speed and current technique (which they learned at a young age and can’t just change easily, if at all) requires that additional height to get those rotations in. Sometimes I also get the impression that they’re not as efficient at initiating the rotation and rotating itself, so they need all that extra force.
I’m also not sure I would agree that those 'powerful' jumps are necessarily better looking… they only do when they’re successful with a stable landing and when the rotation looks tight. But oftentimes it’s rather messy looking and the landings are not very nice (buckling knees, fighting to check the landing…). Sure, the speed and height still makes an impression, but I don’t necessarily value those over other aspects of a jump.
I can assure you that Nathan doesn’t go into his rotational position while he’s still on the ice. His legs are still open during the first revolution, he crosses them only when he’s facing backwards again the first time after take-off (the same is true for Mikhail mind you). You just have to stop the video at the right moment to see that… this whole Nathan has a spinny toe loop 'conspiracy' is getting ridiculous, tbh.
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- Dec 9, 2017
You have misunderstood what I've said. This is a weird representation of what I wrote. Even if you ignore the example of Chen... does that mean someone like Medevedeva, even if she had been taught better technique, would look just like she did between 2016-2018 with her jumps? It does depend on technique. If someone wants to learn a more consistent way of doing a jump for themselves but it sacrifices some other part of the jump quality... well.
Again you've wandered into your own representation of what was written. The skaters jump the way they were taught, with goals in mind. If that means the jumps they produce is of less quality (but they can execute them more consistently), it is what it is. The rest of what you've written is just projection. No skater and their coach would probably go "oh let's blow the entire program after doing one impressive jump". I'm hardly saying this only in relation with Chen. If a skater can get the entire layout looking consistent with great powerful jumping, though, that's good.
This is equivalent to saying that a cake tastes good only when it isn't burnt. To forestall nitpicking, I'll add I'm talking about a non-diabetic person with a sweet-tooth tasting the cake.
You've written more, but it's such a weird level of misunderstanding, I will simply move on to the next part of the post.
Here:
His technique is indeed different from someone like Kolyada's. Anyone can see his toeloops are not as powerful as Kolyada's (and several others). You can disagree with the visual description (I personally see him tightening much earlier than Kolyada and much closer to the ice, bringing his arms in closer when he's much closer to the ice, not having the same amount of spring as Kolyada does, not really doing the "jump up and then rotate" to a good extent), but whatever he's doing isn't that great.
And you don't have to stop the video at all to see who has the better quality toe loop. YMMV. It's hardly a conspiracy when it's acknowledged his jumps aren't as powerful as some of his competitors. Actually, why do you think he on this particular jump looks lacking compared to Kolyada? Again, feel free to disagree with the visual description of "spinny" and I don't think he goes past forward on takeoff anyway.
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- Aug 26, 2017
ISU needs to make a public announcement officially stating the acceptable pre-rotation on each jump. No more feuding in the skating community. Why can't ISU just be upfront and definitively state the degree of pre-rotation that constitutes a +5 GOE vs a 0 GOE. If pre-rotation is not something judges look at in regards to quality, they need to publicly state these things. Its just like the whole argument about whether the pick or blade constitutes the landing of a jump. Why leave it to the technical panel to make up their mind and risk bias and inconsistent UR calling. Just give us an answer and enforce the TP to obey them. Its like they hired a high school student to manage their social media. Please ISU, get with the time. My high school PR team from five years ago has more social media abilities than ISU.
‘He has a beautiful torque to his revolutions’ - Kurt Browning commentary on Nathan’s 4T3T at GPF:
https://youtu.be/A3ErT8_Sb_I?t=3m3s
4T at IdF: ‘And when you have that much control, the scores on an already big base value skyrocket’
https://youtu.be/stNUIJvNVWQ?t=2m18s
https://youtu.be/A3ErT8_Sb_I?t=3m3s
4T at IdF: ‘And when you have that much control, the scores on an already big base value skyrocket’
https://youtu.be/stNUIJvNVWQ?t=2m18s
Take off of toe jumps of the top 6 men were covered in this post with video and gifs.
For 4T, in this analysis, Yuzu and Nathan are in the same best technique category to this non Nathan fan.
http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/169727183234/the-takeoff-toe-jumps
For 4T, in this analysis, Yuzu and Nathan are in the same best technique category to this non Nathan fan.
http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/169727183234/the-takeoff-toe-jumps
I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here re Medvedeva’s jumps.
Also, where did I deny that it’s about technique? I was literally talking about skaters having different technique which results in a different jump approach.
Um… because it does…? I don’t know about you, but I don’t enjoy burnt cake… even if it’s a really delicious one, it’s still spoiled.
As I already said, he and Misha seem to go into the backspin position more or less at the same time in their 4T.
But it looks to me like Nathan tightens his crossed legs faster the moment he goes into the backspin position.
I think his legs are also less far apart when he jumps up, hard to tell actually, but I think this is correct. Which is not to say that he crosses his legs immediately after take-off, but it obviously saves him some time once he does, because there’s already less space between them.
Also his feet are already very close to each other upon take-off, compared to many other skaters, whose free legs first rides up into an h-position, before they push it down again when they snap into the backspin position. So he’s very good at controlling his free leg and not allowing it to ‚get away‘ like that.
ETA: I took a look at some of Javi's toe loops, and he actually does the same thing that Nathan does, legs already very close together upon take-off (in some instances even closer than Nathan's), allowing for a very quick tightening of the legs once he gets into his backspin position. In some of his toe loops that I checked, he went into his backspin position even earlier than Nathan and Misha.
(He also has tendency for truly excessive PR on his toe loops, wow, it's almost worse than Dima... I wonder why Javi was never used as an example in this thread)
I wouldn’t compare those two jumps in the first place, because they’re filmed from different perspectives, which makes it difficult to judge the jumps based on height and distance.
This fancam shows a better, albeit shaky, angle of Nathan’s 4T-3T:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_cGoHdRth4&t=184
I would say that his jump has less height and distance than Misha’s.
But it’s unfair to compare that combo to Misha’s, since it was Nathan’s fourth quad and fifth jumping pass in total, whereas Misha was doing this as his second jumping pass and it was rather early in the program. So comparing Nathan’s first 4T to Misha’s seems more appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_cGoHdRth4&t=96
With this one, I don’t see much of a difference between the two jumps tbh, except for what I described above re Nathan’s technique.
The conspiracy part was clearly referring to the ‚spinny/getting into rotational position on the ice’ part… or may I quote: This is a weird representation of what I wrote.
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