I can put my toepick into the ice and do a full turn before jumping, same for off the ice. It's extremely rare that anyone in competition has done a full turn cheat like this, but in weird circumstances after a bad landing and trying to go into a toeloop, you may see people do a wonky takeoff like this as they reach their toepick around from a standstill and spin off the ice for the jump. Or for example Mai Asada had this kind of extremely cheated toeloop entrance, where you can see they really do leave the ice a full turn into the jump with their toepick, as they step over completely to the other foot and actually turn all the way around, back to where they started, before leaving the ice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ97p7BAxbY&t=30s
'Cheated toeloop entrance' already exists as something judges are recommended to look at, so i was not talking about that...
To be fair, Alysa Liu's 3S in her Nationals FS was almost a whole turn prerotated and I was amazed the judges didn't pick up on that.
The difference is very clear in looking at jumps from the past as compared to the present. If you look at skaters from the 1980's or early 90's, there was virtually nobody with excessive pre-rotation, or even any pre-rotation at all. Jumps generally looked more majestic back then, exactly because people were not cheating the entrances and were first jumping UP before rotating, completing the rotation properly in the air and creating a more pleasing picture with the jump. ...
The difference is very clear in looking at jumps from the past as compared to the present. If you look at skaters from the 1980's or early 90's, there was virtually nobody with excessive pre-rotation, or even any pre-rotation at all. Jumps generally looked more majestic back then, exactly because people were not cheating the entrances and were first jumping UP before rotating, completing the rotation properly in the air and creating a more pleasing picture with the jump. Jumping techniques have changed for a wide variety of reasons since then, but the main reason for the excessive pre-rotation now is because the rules of the sport have been unclear and people have been getting too much credit for these lesser quality jumps.
I believe one of the reasons the jumping techniques have changed because of the difficult entries. The skaters have no time to prepare.
...back then, all you had to do was do the jump so you could stroke straight into them and when you picked, you would vault much better off the ice.
To me, that's the whole lament. I never did see what was wrong with "telegraphing." Look out now, here I come, wait for it, wait for it -- BAM! triple Axel! Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
I for one kind of miss the attitude.
“If it is very clear that the rotation is done on the ice before the take-off, the jump is downgraded and evaluated using the scale of values for the jump of one rotation less,” Adolfsen explained. “The position of the toe pick/skating blade on the take-off is considered here, not the body position as some may believe. “We cannot see the jumps in slow motion, otherwise there will soon be many jumps to be considered and may be downgraded,” she continued. “Again, there are small margins, and here it has been decided that it must be visible in normal speed to consider whether the jump is pre-rotated or not. The rule for pre-rotations is not as strict as for landing of jumps as it is physically impossible to not have any pre-rotation.”
sometimes Kihira's 3A looks TOO easy and simple because there's no prolonged setup, like it's just another element for her and no big deal, lol.
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Check out the jump yourself and tell me that the blade didn't rotate on the ice, or that you can't see it in real time.
Alysa Liu's 3S in her Nationals FS was almost a whole turn prerotated and I was amazed the judges didn't pick up on that.
Yes and 'cheated toeloop entrance' already exists as something judges are recommended to look at, so i was not considering that in my observation about 'pre-rotation' debate...
“If it is very clear that the rotation is done on the ice before the take-off, the jump is downgraded and evaluated using the scale of values for the jump of one rotation less,” Adolfsen explained. “The position of the toe pick/skating blade on the take-off is considered here, not the body position as some may believe. “We cannot see the jumps in slow motion, otherwise there will soon be many jumps to be considered and may be downgraded,” she continued. “Again, there are small margins, and here it has been decided that it must be visible in normal speed to consider whether the jump is pre-rotated or not. The rule for pre-rotations is not as strict as for landing of jumps as it is physically impossible to not have any pre-rotation.”
This person exactly said the position of the toe pick is supposed to be considered. Well, guess what, many skaters are jumping by leaving the ice on their toepick 3/4 of a turn into the jump (or even more). This person overall doesn't seem to really understand jump mechanics, but then that's nothing new for an ISU judge. If landings are being checked in slow-motion, then entrances should be as well. You can't have one without the other, it makes no sense. The ISU needs to change the rule and educate themselves and the judges better.
Again though, you don't even need slow motion to see when a jump is overly pre-rotated. If someone is not able to see it, then that is their own lack of training and awareness. What you do need the slow motion for is to determine the exact point of takeoff and landing on the ice. It's the only way to measure things fairly and there's no reason it shouldn't be done. Unless we want to remove slow-motion and rotation calls altogether, and just have judges score every jump based on the real-time impression they got from the jump.
Also, type of a jump is defined by a take-off while rotation of a jump is defined by a landing foot.
If elements look 'fine' to a naked eye in a real time, then they are not called for a review.
Sure... but when skaters in the 80's and 90's could stroke around the rink with little to no transitions into their jumps, and not expend energy with (comparatively) as complex footwork or spins or super difficult jump content, then they could get more spring off their takeoffs and pre-rotation wasn't as big a deal (although you'd still see it in even the best skaters, like Kwan). 80's/90's skaters were stronger and more built for bigger jumps (so they didn't need to pre-rotate) but the trade-off is that they weren't particularly limber, which is needed these days for flexibility in spin variations.
If you want to nab every skater who collectively pre-rotates and under-rotates in excess, you're going to see some very messy protocols, particularly in ladies/pairs.
Right, but looks fine to who? I can see the cheated entrances in real time. Like I said before, it seems people are just oblivious to the problem, not trained enough to see it. The problem has gone on for so long that people just accept it now, rather than being aware of how these jumps are being cheated, in comparison to how a perfectly executed jump should actually look.
I see a lot of things which i suppose you can see too. We can see more of that with TV slow mo camera angles. But general audience in the arena don't see that, nor we have replays in the arena. And i think those things should be judged by a perception majority share and by the only equipment they have in real time (their own eyes), and not by the eyes of 'die-hard' fans who are strictly looking for pre-rotation, or under-rotation or for a wrong edge. Because sport is not made only for those 'die-hard' fans. You can slow-mo every sport's game and find something you didn't see in a real time. But sports competions are not judged retroactively but in a real time with the views majority share, because those games are made for the audience, people who come to enjoy the game while watching it 'live', as a witnesses- that's the point of existing of all sports competitons.
The running analogy is apt--an athlete who ran 90m should not get the same credit as an athlete who ran 100m, whether or not the audience can tell the distance run.