WADA Compliance Review Committee / RUSADA

[DenissVFan]

In Pyeongchang they were given the number of spots earned by Russia the previous year.

 

[beachmouse]

That‘s what I was thinking too. How does one regulate entries if there‘s no “team“ per se? What about quotas? Countries earn them at the Worlds before the Olympics. Generally, if there‘s no “country“, they‘re competing for but rather as individual athletes, it would not make sense to have a limit to the entries either. But that‘s not going to happen and we all know it.

Likely there will be no team event for the Russian skaters as well. It‘s not OAR like last time, is it?

This whole thing is a mess. I‘m aware something had to be done but it’s still... tiresome. Especially as a skating fan where doping isn’t as much of a problem as in other sports.

If you go by what the IAAF has done, which is probably the most likely template because it's CAS-tested, it's purely individuals allowed (Russia was not allowed to enter relay squads at the 2019 World Championships competing in the Authorized Neutral Athletes category) and the quota for Russian ANAs (not to be confused with Russian Annas) seemed to have been the usual 3 per country per event plus probably the IAAF 'bonus athlete' entries of the most recent world champion and current season Diamond League champion that don't count against an country or entity's quota spots. (A quick skim doesn't show any four person ANA event entries, so it was likely a case that there were not enough cleared athletes in that case that also had their IAAF 'A' qualifying standards to allow for the fourth or fifth athlete in an event for events where a Russian had a champion's non-quota free pass to the meeting)

 

[[email protected]]

Question: does this mean the Russian skaters at Worlds 2020 will be skating under an unaffiliated flag too...? I cannot imagine how placements will work or who (or how many) gets to go if so...

I am sure that it is just about punishment and humiliation. Therefore, quotas will be applied according to citizenship of skaters no matter have they flag or not. And it's OK with me. I and many other Russian figure skating fans will "eat it". The only true scandal will happen if they won't allow to skate Sambo-70 team for the reason of training in Russia.

 

[Edwin]

Question: does this mean the Russian skaters at Worlds 2020 will be skating under an unaffiliated flag too...? I cannot imagine how placements will work or who (or how many) gets to go if so...

Best wait for ISU's official response first. The ruling seriously affects ISU, since all skatings disciplines have a very strong Russian representation.

When indoor speed skating became the norm and the exciting short track discipline became popular, the nations with covered rinks have all made tremendous advances.

The fastest human under his own power is the Russian world record holder in 500 meter speed skating, Pavel Kulishnikov (500 m in 33,61 entering the finish straight at over 70 km/h!) Russia is equally strong in short track skating in both men and women.

 

[thedude]

One does not preclude the other. I have no doubt there are plenty who want to ensure sports remain untainted. Just as I also have no doubt there are plenty of people who just want to make sure Russia can't come for reasons that have nothing to do with sport. Just as I'm sure some of the athletes that signed that petition just wanted to make sure Russian rivals were not allowed to compete.

While Justin Gatlin will race for the USA, while Sun Yang will race for China, while actually convicted dopers who returned positive tests (and sometimes multiple positive tests) are allowed to compete, I hold it unconscionable that innocent Russian athletes should be banned.

Referencing the Gatlin case is a false equivalence. There is separate process for handling individual cases, you might think the punishment isn't severe enough but that's a separate argument. His case and others like it went through the same process. Many people agree that punishment should be more severe, but that has nothing to do with the Russia scandal.

The equivalent of the Russia doping scandal would be that the USA Olympic committee had scientist and doctors administer PEDs to their athletes and worked with the laboratory responsible for testing to circumvent the tests. Then after being caught and offered a path to reinstatement by offering full transparency, Russia misses the deadline and refuses to allow outside investigators access the database. After being allowed access to the database, there's now further evidence that Russia continues to manipulate the data and cover up.

The punishment of the Russian athletes is not the fault of WADA, the Olympic committee, or other foreign governments. It's the fault of Russian government via RUSADA or however the sports/political structure in Russia is organized. Individual athletes dope all the time, Lance Armstrong was caught by USADA, when they could've easily looked the other way. But if the organization which oversees their athletes and is responsible for presenting their athletes to world as clean and drug free, is fundamentally corrupt, then a state wide punishment is the only means to discourage the type of activity that Russia is being accused of.

This isn't about Russian figure skaters. It doesn't make a difference whether it's a teenage figure skater or a 300lb power lifter. The organization which oversees both of them can't be trusted. International sports law isn't the same as criminal law where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is applicable. International sports is essentially self-governing. No outside country or organization can enforce anything within Russia's borders. It's Russia's fault that they've chosen this path, in turn, Russia is punishing their athletes who wish to compete cleanly.

In addition, many cyber security companies believe that the 2018 Olympics were hacked by Russia and other drug labs have reported attempts to breach their servers. https://www.wired.com/story/untold-story-2018-olympics-destroyer-cyberattack/

 

[Edwin]

I am sure that it is just about punishment and humiliation. Therefore, quotas will be applied according to citizenship of skaters no matter have they flag or not. And it's OK with me. I and many other Russian figure skating fans will "eat it". The only true scandal will happen if they won't allow to skate Sambo-70 team for the reason of training in Russia.

"You will eat it"? For 4 to possibly 6 years?

Those Sambo-70 skaters we all respect and adore will be glad they have competed abroad many times and have been tested many times by accredited laboratories (much to their obvious displeasure).
Those Russian skaters that have been only tested by RUSADA, even when clean and after RUSADA re-installation, will have their tests disqualified. Will they be able to compete abroad even?

Promising young seniors like Tsibinova?

What is the prospect of Samodelkina, Petrosyan, Akat'yeva to start competing internationally next year when they have no records at all, because the RUSADA's don't count anymore?

 

[gmyers]

"You will eat it"? For 4 to possibly 6 years?

Those Sambo-70 skaters we all respect and adore will be glad they have competed abroad many times and have been tested many times by accredited laboratories (much to their obvious displeasure).
Those Russian skaters that have been only tested by RUSADA, even when clean and after RUSADA re-installation, will have their tests disqualified. Will they be able to compete abroad even?

Promising young seniors like Tsibinova?

What is the prospect of Samodelkina, Petrosyan, Akat'yeva to start competing internationally next year when they have no records at all, because the RUSADA's don't count anymore?

Time for Putin to resign!

 

[starla16]

"You will eat it"? For 4 to possibly 6 years?

Those Sambo-70 skaters we all respect and adore will be glad they have competed abroad many times and have been tested many times by accredited laboratories (much to their obvious displeasure).
Those Russian skaters that have been only tested by RUSADA, even when clean and after RUSADA re-installation, will have their tests disqualified. Will they be able to compete abroad even?

Promising young seniors like Tsibinova?

What is the prospect of Samodelkina, Petrosyan, Akat'yeva to start competing internationally next year when they have no records at all, because the RUSADA's don't count anymore?

JGP arent even included its only worlds does that even count junior worlds ?

- - - Updated - - -

Time for Putin to resign!

It dont work like that, lol

 

[WeakAnkles]

Referencing the Gatlin case is a false equivalence. There is separate process for handling individual cases, you might think the punishment isn't severe enough but that's a separate argument. His case and others like it went through the same process. Many people agree that punishment should be more severe, but that has nothing to do with the Russia scandal.

The equivalent of the Russia doping scandal would be that the USA Olympic committee had scientist and doctors administer PEDs to their athletes and worked with the laboratory responsible for testing to circumvent the tests. Then after being caught and offered a path to reinstatement by offering full transparency, Russia misses the deadline and refuses to allow outside investigators access the database. After being allowed access to the database, there's now further evidence that Russia continues to manipulate the data and cover up.

The punishment of the Russian athletes is not the fault of WADA, the Olympic committee, or other foreign governments. It's the fault of Russian government via RUSADA or however the sports/political structure in Russia is organized. Individual athletes dope all the time, Lance Armstrong was caught by USADA, when they could've easily looked the other way. But if the organization which oversees their athletes and is responsible for presenting their athletes to world as clean and drug free, is fundamentally corrupt, then a state wide punishment is the only means to discourage the type of activity that Russia is being accused of.

This isn't about Russian figure skaters. It doesn't make a difference whether it's a teenage figure skater or a 300lb power lifter. The organization which oversees both of them can't be trusted. International sports law isn't the same as criminal law where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is applicable. International sports is essentially self-governing. No outside country or organization can enforce anything within Russia's borders. It's Russia's fault that they've chosen this path, in turn, Russia is punishing their athletes who wish to compete cleanly.

In addition, many cyber security companies believe that the 2018 Olympics were hacked by Russia and other drug labs have reported attempts to breach their servers. https://www.wired.com/story/untold-story-2018-olympics-destroyer-cyberattack/

Bingo. Make that double triple fourple bingo. :agree:

 

[Nord Stream 2]

Time for Putin to resign!

First, teach your cat not to piss in your shoes.

 

[klena]

Time for Putin to resign!

As we say in Russia "the second act of le ballet de la Merlaison" starts

 

[pororocheburashka]

I can't say. Russian government? Sports that became a political weapon and business rather than a vehicle to unite nations as De Coubertin dreamt? Double standards?

This is my opinion. It may be classified as another conspiracy theory. But again, that's what I think. In Beijing and London there were abnormal host country results. There were gossips about the wrong-doing, there were articles but there were no consequences whatsoever. Now Russia finally received its Olympics after 1980 Games which were boycotted by the West. 50 billion dollars was spent. 30 thousand volunteers enlisted. And, of course, it had to be the triumph of the Russian team. Looking at the predecessors from China and UK the officials did not think anything would be revealed if they cheat a little bit. And the last thing they thought was that the person who invented and supplied the "famous cocktail" will become the whisstle blower. But s... happens.

Yes, they cheated and were caught.




This is the key point. We are talking again about the past. I understand that WADA has no issues with the current Russian Olympic committee, they approved how Rusada was rebuilt. It's all about Sochi times when some of the current athletes were fresh from a kindergarten. We have the mismatch between 2 databases related to those times. WADA says that Russian lab made the changes. Russia said that they did not do that and accuse Rodchenkov. Who is right? I don't know and I don't care. I just see very unfair decisions affecting the future for the things that happened long time ago.

We have another round of favorite recent Western pastime of sanctions. Do they make the world better? I don't think so, but that's me. I know that cultures are different. Some things that happen currently in the US are wild to me. But I am sure that for many Americans it would be wild that those things are wild to me.

Sanctions? The end justifies the means (Exitus acta probat (Ovid)).
The truth is coming out later (if ever) when is just part of a history file, when what is done is already done.
Do you remember the Chilcot report?

 

[karne]

What was the reason?

We do not know. Ivan Bukin was never given a reason. He asked for one, pleaded for one, and they refused to give him a reason. You will never move me from my position that that is unconscionable.

 

[Nord Stream 2]

Sanctions? The end justifies the means (Exitus acta probat (Ovid)).
The truth is coming out later (if ever) when is just part of a history file, when what is done is already done.
Do you remember the Chilcot report?

Here 99% do not know what it is. The murder of one is a tragedy, the murder of a million is statistics.

 

[[email protected]]

"You will eat it"? For 4 to possibly 6 years?

Those Sambo-70 skaters we all respect and adore will be glad they have competed abroad many times and have been tested many times by accredited laboratories (much to their obvious displeasure).
Those Russian skaters that have been only tested by RUSADA, even when clean and after RUSADA re-installation, will have their tests disqualified. Will they be able to compete abroad even?

Promising young seniors like Tsibinova?

What is the prospect of Samodelkina, Petrosyan, Akat'yeva to start competing internationally next year when they have no records at all, because the RUSADA's don't count anymore?

Yes I will because the alternative of boycotting will be a disaster. Let them play their game. As long as the best Russian figure skaters can compete whatever usual national attributes will be sacrificed is a secondary factor. The requirement of training outside Russia will be unacceptable. If they go as far as that, then yes, boycotting will be the only reaction left. You won't ship Sambo-70 with all the staff and stuff, with parents and babushkas to the place which WADA officials would approve. Everyone understands it. It will be a demise of the biggest wonder in figure skating, well, at least during the last decade.

As for younger generation the solution should be found as well.

 

[anonymoose_au]

We do not know. Ivan Bukin was never given a reason. He asked for one, pleaded for one, and they refused to give him a reason. You will never move me from my position that that is unconscionable.

Let's not forget Viktor Ahn who also didn't get an invite for reasons unknown. Considering the fact he once competed for South Korea before switching to Russia and his success with them it smacked of sour grapes and revenge for changing countries.

 

[[email protected]]

In addition, many cyber security companies believe that the 2018 Olympics were hacked by Russia and other drug labs have reported attempts to breach their servers. https://www.wired.com/story/untold-story-2018-olympics-destroyer-cyberattack/

Aren't conspiracy theories forbidden here? I may believe that the aliens abduct people. If you are interested I may refer you to the sites that discuss it.

 

[lariko]

Yes I will because the alternative of boycotting will be a disaster. Let them play their game. As long as the best Russian figure skaters can compete whatever usual national attributes will be sacrificed is a secondary factor. The requirement of training outside Russia will be unacceptable. If they go as far as that, then yes, boycotting will be the only reaction left. You won't ship Sambo-70 with all the staff and stuff, with parents and babushkas to the place which WADA officials would approve. Everyone understands it. It will be a demise of the biggest wonder in figure skating, well, at least during the last decade.

As for younger generation the solution should be found as well.

The requirement to move out of Russia is illogical, because the athletes that train in Russia but compete for other countries are not covered by WADA restrictions. As such, it is the country represented and implied pressure from the officials to participate in the unacceptable sport practices that is the criteria for the ban, not the training location.

 

[skatingfan200]

We do not know. Ivan Bukin was never given a reason. He asked for one, pleaded for one, and they refused to give him a reason. You will never move me from my position that that is unconscionable.

https://www.olympic.org/news/olympic-athlete-from-russia-oar-invitation-review-panel-releases-list-of-information-used-as-part-of-its-deliberations
Here is the list what the IOC used for athletes in 2018.

As far as I know, he is not on the McLaren list. Likely his data was manipulated in the Moscow LIMS.

Russia says

Experts concluded that changes to the database were made in the period from 2012 to 2015. Then the head of the laboratory was Rodchenkov. Also, in 2016, edits continued to be made, but already remotely, from an IP address in California. Note that then, Rodchenkov, along with Deputy Timofei Sobolevsky and IT laboratory specialist Oleg Migachev, migrated to the United States and brought with them a copy of the database, which was then provided to WADA. In the report of the group of Russian experts, she appears as a “LIMS informant”. WADA investigators compared with that copy that was received from RUSADA in 2019. After that, WADA announced a multitude of inconsistencies identified when comparing both databases. In Russia, they doubts the authenticity of the LIMS informant.

https://newizv.ru/article/general/06-12-2019/eksperty-oprovergli-obvineniya-wada-v-manipulyatsiyah-rossii-s-dannymi-proverok-na-doping?ind=1
(google translate)

 

[Deripashka]

For better understanding of WADA approach to investigation of Rusada, I strongly recomend this interview with Viktor Blazhevyi, rector of Moscow state law university (MGLA) and head of committee responsible for communication with WADA.
https://tass.ru/interviews/7280115
If I should briefly summarized it:
WADA demanded for Rusada handover of interim backups of LIMS database, but those backups are interim, so they are regularly deleted from server when main backup is updated, so they are not exist anymore and Rusada couldnt submit them to WADA. WADA evaluated it as illegal manipulation with LIMS database and till today didnt react on requests for explanation from side of Viktor Blazhevyi commitee (in general WADA just kept giving them tasks and deadlines until they had to formulate their answers, but refused to answered any of their requests).

Another aspect: Developer and system administator of LIMS database Oleg Migachev ran from Russia together with Rodchenkov in 2015. LIMS database was never certified, they havent any manuals and documentation to this system, so Rusada had to at first organized back engineering of whole database system to gain at least some level of control over it.

Rusada submit all their biological samples to WADA together with their LIMS database backup. WADA find out that their version of LIMS database which gave them Rodchenkov in 2017 is different from database backup which gave them Rusada and automaticaly called version of Rusada database as manipulated, but again ignored quibble of Rusada that Rodchenko and Migachev submit their version of LIMS database to WADA two years after they stole it and ran from Russia and nobody know what was happening with their database during that time, especially when whole that time was in hands of its designer Oleg Migachev, who wrote source code of LIMS database and understand it better than anyone. WADA also refused to create common investigation team from their and russian IT experts to check originality of both versions, they just decided to consider Rodchenko/Migachev version as original and authentic.

I would say, if this will go to sport arbitrary court, WADA will have difficult times to vindicate their steps and resolutions and it probably end as bunch of other cases between them and russian athletes which didnt dope, in which Swiss court already recognized their ban as illegal. However, that will take years and harm to clear russian sportsmen will be already done...
Meanwhile, russian reaction is swift, and US astronauts just lost places on Soyuz ISS supply flights at least to end of 2021, which means US currently have no way how to deliver their astronauts to ISS.