2020-21 Japanese Ladies' Figure Skating

[Joekaz]

what? Wakaba is my favorite skater but to pretend Osmond is not a great skater in her own right is ridiculous. Do you realize how few ladies these days can ever get two medals at Worlds? Very very very few...Osmond had massive jumps and amazing skating skills in the classic Canadian style. In fact I'd say she was MORE talented than Zagitova and Medvedeva, they were just lucky to be in their teens while Osmond was at the ripe old age of 22 and wasn't able to train at their level. Medvedeva is the one in particular who made a reputation on being consistent while other skaters with better jumps (Osmond, Gold) and better PCS/skating skills/interpretation (Miyahara) struggled with inconsistency or injuries or were stuck in juniors (Zagitova, Kostornaia).

Sakamoto is a great skater (who I think was robbed of a medal this past worlds) but do you really think she had the emotional maturity and blade control to skate the Edith Piaf short program, or the delicacy to skate Black Swan? I doubt it...

To be a great skater you have to be consistent over an extended period of time. Osmond was not. If she was a great skater, her medals in 2018 wouldn't have been so surprising. When she was on her game she was very good, but was never considered the best in the world, even after she won world's. Sakamoto is absolutely a more consistent jumper over her career than Osmond was. Sakamoto is more awkward and brute force, sure, but much of their style is similar: great speed and power, exciting, but bordering on out of control, and edge issues. Neither is great in my book.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Level of step sequence is not a deduction for an error. It is a subjective opinion on the quality of execution, more like GOE and PCS. We weren't discussing those type of things, just deductions for mistakes. But you looked everywhere you could to find 1 pt., and then claim this justifies a wide lead for a sloppy Osmond. Laughable. We are talking about Osmond, not some great skater. The fact is that over the course of both programs, the errors of both more or less cancelled each other out. That leaves who you think skated the best outside of those errors as the deserved winner. To me it is without doubt, Wakaba. Im sure you disagree with my opinion of who was better, but I think my summary of the basic situation is correct.

LOL, I literally said it's not a deduction but it is leaving points on the table. It's like if a skater doubled all of their jumps. There would be no "deductions" but it lowers their base value and thus is points left on the table, which explains why their score isn't as high as it possibly could be.

Your summary of the situation is only correct using the premise that Wakaba is the better skater which is merely your opinion. Wakaba could have fallen 6 times and if you had the opinion she without a doubt deserved to win because Osmond's program isn't your cup of tea and Skyfall is the best thing since sliced bread, then you would be entitled to that opinion regardless of how rooted in reality it is or isn't.

It's quite amusing that you assert Osmond is "not some great skater". She has 1 more World gold medal/World title than Higuchi and the same number of World silver medals. So if Osmond's "not great", I wonder what that makes Higuchi, using your very own logic/criteria.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

To be a great skater you have to be consistent over an extended period of time. Osmond was not. If she was a great skater, her medals in 2018 wouldn't have been so surprising. When she was on her game she was very good, but was never considered the best in the world, even after she won world's. Sakamoto is absolutely a more consistent jumper over her career than Osmond was. Sakamoto is more awkward and brute force, sure, but much of their style is similar: great speed and power, exciting, but bordering on out of control, and edge issues. Neither is great in my book.

Oh wow... so in case you missed it -- Wakaba has one silver medal and only been to Worlds twice - placing 11th in her other attempt. On the GP she has 2 silvers and 2 bronzes, 1 CS win, and has never made the GPF. By comparison, Osmond has been to Worlds 4 times and has a World gold and a World silver. She also has a 2 GP golds, 2 silvers, and 1 bronze, 3 CS wins, and a GPF bronze. And an Olympic bronze.

So if Osmond isn't consistent over a period of time (even discounting things like her breaking her leg and keeping her off her game for a stretch) and that makes her not a great skater, then do you concede that Wakaba was not a great skater either?

As for "never considered best in the world", Osmond's World standing in 2017-2018 literally was #1. The best Higuchi has ever managed was #6 in the 2017-2018 season. These are concrete numbers that are irrefutable, regardless of how brilliant you think Higuchi is and how much you try to trivialize Osmond.

LOL, of all the swords to fall on, Osmond vs. Higuchi, eh? And using consistency over time as the crux of your argument. Wow, that's some real devotion ya got there.

 

[Joekaz]

This is such a trivialization. Osmond performed a lot of elements with superior quality, had well choreographed programs performed with conviction regardless of errors, and won by 12 points - she earned her win.

The only trivialization anyone could make to diminish her gold has nothing to do with Higuchi and everything to do with Zagitova bombing but that is the nature of sport. Trusova could have beat Tuk or Anna but didn’t show up. Osmond won fair and square. Even if she got Olympic medallist bonus - she didn’t get 12 points worth.

Osmond’s Olympic medal didn’t make Higuchi fall.

So now you are saying that if Higuchi didnt fall in the short she would have won?

 

[Joekaz]

LOL, I literally said it's not a deduction but it is leaving points on the table. It's like if a skater doubled all of their jumps. There would be no "deductions" but it lowers their base value and thus is points left on the table, which explains why their score isn't as high as it possibly could be.

Your summary of the situation is only correct using the premise that Wakaba is the better skater which is merely your opinion. Wakaba could have fallen 6 times and if you had the opinion she without a doubt deserved to win because Osmond's program isn't your cup of tea and Skyfall is the best thing since sliced bread, then you would be entitled to that opinion regardless of how rooted in reality it is.

It's amusing that you assert Osmond is "not some great skater:. She has 1 more World gold medal/World title than Higuchi and the same number of World silver medals. So if she's not great, I wonder what that makes Higuchi.

Higuchi is my favorite skater. But unlike you I dont hide from reality. I didn't say Wakaba was a great skater. She has great talent, but her senior career has been very disappointing, outside of one season. If her career ends here her international career wouldnt even be considered very good, let alone great. But I try to be honest, even if I dont like it. Hopefully she can have a big end to her career to salvage her legacy as Osmond did.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So now you are saying that if Higuchi didnt fall in the short she would have won?

No. As you pointed out, the fall cost her about 4-5 points (maybe 6-7 if we factor in lost +GOE if the jumping pass were clean). She lost by over 12 points.

If Higuchi didn't fall in the short... and had a better edge on her flip jump... and had level 4 footwork instead of level 3 in both programs... and had clean jumps with the quality of Osmond's clean jumps... and had better artistry/speed/projection than Osmond.... then yes she would have won.

 

[Joekaz]

I don't know what everyone is playing at, Osmond's short and Higuchi's free were easily both among the top 10 best programs of that year of every discipline, they were frankly both amazing. For example here is Ice Talk Podcast's poll for program of the year which Skyfall won handily: https://twitter.com/IceTalkPodcast/status/984782615646437376
Personally, I also would add their other programs too (Gypsy Dance and Black Swan) to the top 20 list but I know those are not everyone's taste. But I mean I cannot even compare Wakaba's interpretation of Kitri to Alina's, Wakaba is just on another level...

As for the Worlds competition, Wakaba is my favorite skater but Osmond definitely deserved the gold there. I indeed would have had Wakaba winning the free skate because her PCS was far too low (and I think she would have won it had she skated in the last group). But come on, she would have to win by NINE points ahead of Kaetlyn to make up the SP gap, I mean Kaetlyn had the biggest jumps in the competition and deserved very high GOE for all her jumps outside of the one 3Lz stepout, which she wouldn't have gotten good GOE for even if clean because of the edge issues). If Kaetlyn herself had fallen in the free skate then I could understand that argument but her free skate was a very solid effort too and her -3T combos are better than Wakaba's tbh.

But I also don't take seriously the argument that "ISU professionals judged it so it has to be right" because the judges who shamelessly put Adelina's free skate 7 points above Mao in Sochi were also "professionals." The truth is due to political maneuvering that the judges are just as biased or even more biased than fans, that's how they get their position in the first place!

Im not talking about Osmond's SP that year. Im talking about Osmond's SP that competition. She got an unclear edge call and almost put a hand down on a sloppy landing on her lutz, and did put a hand down to keep from falling on her butt on a butchered 2A. And you say she deserved the 7 pt lead she had on Wakaba after that mess? Go to YouTube and watch it, and I guarantee you, you will apologize to me for being mistaken.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Higuchi is my favorite skater. But unlike you I dont hide from reality. I didn't say Wakaba was a great skater. She has great talent, but her senior career has been very disappointing, outside of one season. If her career ends here her international career wouldnt even be considered very good, let alone great. But I try to be honest, even if I dont like it. Hopefully she can have a big end to her career to salvage her legacy as Osmond did.

She's your favourite? I couldn't tell!

FYI, Osmond is not my favourite female skater ever (she's up there though) -- but she deserves respect and credence for the achievements she earned -- especially when you consider the adversity she has had to face/come back from.

Shcherbakova is not my favourite skater either but she deserves the respect and recognition that comes with being a World champion, even if this is the last competition she ever skates.

Also, Wakaba IS a great skater and her Skyfall program was a delight. A skater isn't just measured by the colour of their medals or the technical ability they're able to reel off or even the longevity of their career. You don't win a World silver without being a great skater. That's just a fact. But Worlds 2018 was a definitive result. If Zagitova, Miyahara and Kostner skated better and pushed Higuchi to 5th, that wouldn't change the fact that she had a wonderful FS.

Wakaba's career hasn't been as stellar as her fans could hope -- but attempting to diminish Osmond's career (which by comparison is way more illustrious) is a rather perplexing way of trying to alleviate that frustration.

 

[Joekaz]

No. As you pointed out, the fall cost her about 4-5 points (maybe 6-7 if we factor in lost +GOE if the jumping pass were clean). She lost by over 12 points.

If Higuchi didn't fall in the short... and had a better edge on her flip jump... and had level 4 footwork instead of level 3 in both programs... and had clean jumps with the quality of Osmond's clean jumps... and had better artistry/speed/projection than Osmond.... then yes she would have won.

So then let me get this correct. Higuchi completely clean, but at the same skill level she had in both programs should have still lost to a sloppy Osmond, who had almost 6 pts in deductions from 4 significant mistakes, not counting the PCS pts she should have lost? Really?

 

[Joekaz]

She's your favourite? I couldn't tell!

FYI, Osmond is not my favourite female skater ever (she's up there though) -- but she deserves respect and credence for the achievements she earned -- especially when you consider the adversity she has had to face/come back from.

Shcherbakova is not my favourite skater either but she deserves the respect and recognition that comes with being a World champion, even if this is the last competition she ever skates.

Also, Wakaba IS a great skater and her Skyfall program was a delight. A skater isn't just measured by the colour of their medals or the technical ability they're able to reel off or even the longevity of their career. You don't win a World silver without being a great skater. That's just a fact. But Worlds 2018 was a definitive result. If Zagitova, Miyahara and Kostner skated better and pushed Higuchi to 5th, that wouldn't change the fact that she had a wonderful FS.

Wakaba's career hasn't been as stellar as her fans could hope -- but attempting to diminish Osmond's career (which by comparison is way more illustrious) is a rather perplexing way of trying to alleviate that frustration.

We have different definitions of great then. Im talking performance in competition over a long period of time measured against other champions. Like Kwan, Asada, Kim are great. Osmond? Are you joking? Lol

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Im not talking about Osmond's SP that year. Im talking about Osmond's SP that competition. She got an unclear edge call and almost put a hand down on a sloppy landing on her lutz, and did put a hand down to keep from falling on her butt on a butchered 2A. And you say she deserved the 7 pt lead she had on Wakaba after that mess? Go to YouTube and watch it, and I guarantee you, you will apologize to me for being mistaken.

Yes, she deserved the 7 point lead. Higuchi had an edge call and fell on a combination. Unfortunately for Higuchi, the negative GOE is applied to both jumps. But those are the rules. And Osmond far outperformed Higuchi.

I've watched both programs and Osmond's SP is miles ahead of Higuchi's, and while the 2A was sloppy it's not even close to as grave an error as Higuchi's. It's astonishing that you label Osmond with an edge call and a stepout/hands down as a mess, but give a pass to Higuchi's program with an edge call, and a fall. Go to Youtube, and I guarantee you, Higuchi still fell on her combination and that isn't changing.

If you don't understand why a stepout/hands down on a 2A (a loss of about 2 points compared to a clean combo) is less grave an error than a fall on a 3Z+3T (a loss of about 7 points compared to a clean combo), and also other technical things to note like a loss of 0.6 (and associated GOE) lost on a StSq3, and Osmond scoring 12.19 on spins compared to Higuchi's 11.54... not to mention Osmond's SP being vastly superior to Higuchi's SP choreographically and performance wise, I can't help you. You are just deliberately ignoring how the scoring system works, and treating Osmond and Higuchi at different standards because Higuchi is your favourite skater and Osmond handily beat her.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

We have different definitions of great then. Im talking performance in competition over a long period of time measured against other champions. Like Kwan, Asada, Kim are great. Osmond? Are you joking? Lol

I guess if a skater doesn't have the 5 World titles + 2 Olympic silver/bronze Kwan has, the 3 World titles/Olympic silver Asada has, or the 2 Olympic gold/silver medals Kim has, they can't be considered a great skater.

I'm wondering: which skaters today would you consider to be a "great skater"? Are any of the current Japanese ladies "great skaters"? Are any of the medalists from Worlds 2021 "great skaters"? Or does their lack of accolades relative to Kwan/Asada/Kim prevent them from being considered great skaters?

 

[Joekaz]

Yes, she deserved the 7 point lead. Higuchi had an edge call and fell on a combination. Unfortunately for Higuchi, the negative GOE is applied to both jumps. But those are the rules.

I've watched both programs and Osmond's SP is miles ahead of Higuchi's, and while the 2A was sloppy it's not even close to as grave an error as Higuchi's. It's astonishing that you label Osmond with an edge call and a stepout/hands down as a mess, but give a pass to Higuchi's program with an edge call, and a fall. Go to Youtube, and I guarantee you, Higuchi fell on her combination and that isn't changing.

If you don't understand why a stepout/hands down on a 2A (a loss of about 2 points compared to a clean combo) is less grave an error than a fall on a 3Z+3T (a loss of about 7 points compared to a clean combo), and 0.6 (and associated GOE) lost on a StSq3, and Osmond scoring 12.19 on spins compared to Higuchi's 11.54... not to mention Osmond's SP being vastly superior to Higuchi's SP, I can't help you. You are just deliberately ignoring how the scoring system works, and treating Osmond and Higuchi at different standards because Higuchi is your favourite skater and Osmond handily beat her.

Look at the scorecards. In the LP, Higuchi landed that same combo cleanly and recieved 12.53. Her flawed one in the short recieved 9.23. As I said before, that is 3.30 pts lost, another 1 for the fall. That is 4.30 on that jump, not 7 as you say. Your math is as flawed as your logic. I included her unclear edge in the short in my rundown of her deductions,btw.

 

[Joekaz]

I guess if a skater doesn't have the 5 World titles + 2 Olympic silver/bronze Kwan has, the 3 World titles/Olympic silver Asada has, or the 2 Olympic gold/silver medals Kim has, they can't be considered a great skater.

I'm wondering: which skaters today would you consider to be a "great skater"? Are any of the current Japanese ladies "great skaters"? Are any of the medalists from Worlds 2021 "great skaters"? Or does their lack of accolades relative to Kwan/Asada/Kim prevent them from being considered great skaters?

None of the current skaters have proven themselves to be great. If you asked me this last year, my answer would have been the same, except I thought Kostornaia was well on her way to be. She still might make it, but unfortunately skating is a tough sport to predict and she had a tough time this year.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Look at the scorecards. In the LP, Higuchi landed that same combo cleanly and recieved 12.53. Her flawed one in the short recieved 9.23. As I said before, that is 3.30 pts lost, another 1 for the fall. That is 4.30 on that jump, not 7 as you say. Your math is as flawed as your logic. I included her unclear edge in the short in my rundown of her deductions,btw.

The 7 point lead isn't just based on the combination. It's the combination fall plus the edge call plus the level 3 StSq plus Osmond having better spins plus Osmond having a better program/performance outside of the elements. Osmond's 2A was sloppy but she got back into the choreo, whereas Wakaba's fall was very disruptive and there was a clear break in interpretation/choreo where she had to stroke to get back into the program and regroup after the fall. Frankly, IMO, Higuchi was fortunate that it was only a 7 points difference.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

None of the current skaters have proven themselves to be great. If you asked me this last year, my answer would have been the same, except I thought Kostornaia was well on her way to be. She still might make it, but unfortunately skating is a tough sport to predict and she had a tough time this year.

Okay, so if I'm understanding your own personal criteria correctly .... until a skater has the hardware of an Asada/Kim/Kwan, they cannot be considered great? Someone like Zagitova or Arakawa or Lipinski - they're not great because they didn't win multiple World/Olympic golds/medals over several years?

If Kostornaia wins everything next year, she's not great unless she's able to repeat it over a span of a career that is comparable to that of Asada/Kim/Kwan? Trusova landing 4 quads doesn't make her a great/notable skater unless she has the hardware to go with it?

I mean, you're entitled to whatever criteria you want, but your standards for "great" are pretty high. I can't imagine how you appreciate this sport when 99% of the skaters wouldn't meet your expectation of what constitutes "great", based on their lack of accolades compared to Asada/Kim/Kwan. The hardware isn't everything. Kihira, for example, is someone I would call a "great skater" (first skater to do 8 clean triples in a program, and first 3A+3T; nice artistry/spins/skating to boot). And that's dependent not based on how she places relative to others or how long/short her career is, but rather the talent she has and the skating she puts out there in the moment.

 

[Joekaz]

Okay, so if I'm understanding your own personal criteria correctly .... until a skater has the hardware of an Asada/Kim/Kwan, they cannot be considered great? Someone like Zagitova or Arakawa or Lipinski - they're not great because they didn't win multiple World/Olympic golds/medals?

I would say it depends how much talent she demonstrates and how well she performs in championship competition. The judging in this sport is too corrupt to take seriously. If she consistently skates at last years level and skates her best in championship competition the next 2 or 3 years, then retires, I would consider her great. She was fabulous last season, dont you think?

 

[Joekaz]

Oh wow... so in case you missed it -- Wakaba has one silver medal and only been to Worlds twice - placing 11th in her other attempt. On the GP she has 2 silvers and 2 bronzes, 1 CS win, and has never made the GPF. By comparison, Osmond has been to Worlds 4 times and has a World gold and a World silver. She also has a 2 GP golds, 2 silvers, and 1 bronze, 3 CS wins, and a GPF bronze. And an Olympic bronze.

So if Osmond isn't consistent over a period of time (even discounting things like her breaking her leg and keeping her off her game for a stretch) and that makes her not a great skater, then do you concede that Wakaba was not a great skater either?

As for "never considered best in the world", Osmond's World standing in 2017-2018 literally was #1. The best Higuchi has ever managed was #6 in the 2017-2018 season. These are concrete numbers that are irrefutable, regardless of how brilliant you think Higuchi is and how much you try to trivialize Osmond.

LOL, of all the swords to fall on, Osmond vs. Higuchi, eh? And using consistency over time as the crux of your argument. Wow, that's some real devotion ya got there.

Yes, Osmond was number 1 in the rankings, but everyone considered Zagitova to be the best skater for that year, Im sure you will admit.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I would say it depends how much talent she demonstrates and how well she performs in championship competition. The judging in this sport is too corrupt to take seriously. If she consistently skates at last years level and skates her best in championship competition the next 2 or 3 years, then retires, I would consider her great. She was fabulous last season, dont you think?

Yes she was fabulous last season. But, she doesn't have a World title/medal to show for it -- whereas by comparison, Kwan has 5 World titles (9 World medals), Asada has 3 World titles (5 World medals), Kim has 2 World titles (6 World medals). You mentioned "skates her best". What if Kostornaia DOES skate her best and yet it's not enough to beat quadsters like Trusova/Shcherbakova/Valieva/etc. and she ends her career with no World medals? Does that suddenly mean her skating isn't great?

Osmond has demonstrated a lot of talent (even if you think otherwise) and has demonstrated the ability to win multiple World medals, including gold. Yes, it's not even close to Kwan/Kim/Asada, but she still has two more World medals and one more World title than Kostornaia who might end her career with none. That doesn't mean Kostornaia (who holds the SP world record, mind you) isn't a "great skater".

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, Osmond was number 1 in the rankings, but everyone considered Zagitova to be the best skater for that year, Im sure you will admit.

But you said Osmond was "never considered the best in the world" when objectively she WAS the best in the world.

Zagitova was arguably the skater in the world that year who got the best results (though some might argue Medvedeva was the better skater)... but at the 2018 World Championships, Osmond was the best skater, hands down.