Mens' LP

[bekalc]

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing Joubert has no artistry. That's not true. I liked his long program. He skates it with intensity, and he can draw the crowd in. He's no Tim Goebel....

All of the men and ladies are required to perform a 2Axel under the rules. It has to be included in one of his 8 jumping passes.

They are required to do an axel in the long program the men and women have the choice of doing a triple axel or a double axel. A lot of the men who don't have quads though do a double axel because they can't legally do another triple.

Tomas Verner did not attempt a double axel in the long program because of this.

Joubert though had no business doing a double axel, when he could have done a triple salchow (let's not even get into the quad salchow) and that he missed his 3 jump combination all together.

That's why it's so silly because he should have never been doing the double axel in the freakin first place!

 

[indicatoto101]

Yes, when they increased the base value for quad toe (.8 pts) they also increased the penalty for it. Before this change, a fall on the quad would net 1 pt higher than a decent triple toe. Now, a fall on the quad toe would probably net less points then if the skater attempted a triple toe.

I'm vastly dissapointed in Oda. How many times can he make such dumb mistakes, that aren't even related to his technical abilities. Does he not understand the combination rule? Even Mirai Nagasu who isn't as seasoned as Oda knows to tack on a double when she misses her first combination jump. He needs someone stricter than Morozov to reinforces the judging system's rules as well as a sports psychologist. With that said, I'll still root for him next year. C'mon Nobunari!

 

[enlight78]

Yes, when they increased the base value for quad toe (.8 pts) they also increased the penalty for it. Before this change, a fall on the quad would net 1 pt higher than a decent triple toe. Now, a fall on the quad toe would probably net less points then if the skater attempted a triple toe.

I'm vastly dissapointed in Oda. How many times can he make such dumb mistakes, that aren't even related to his technical abilities. Does he not understand the combination rule? Even Mirai Nagasu who isn't as seasoned as Oda knows to tack on a double when she misses her first combination jump. He needs someone stricter than Morozov to reinforces the judging system's rules as well as a sports psychologist. With that said, I'll still root for him next year. C'mon Nobunari!

I know this is the third time in a row. He should just stick to the plan no matter what. Common Sense say I have two 3Axels one need to be in combination. Instead he adds it to his Salcow.

 

[Buttercup]

The thing is there's hardly any men who could skate good programs with consistent quads and a full array of triples.

I think Medusa brought up 2006 Worlds as an example of a competition where the top guys really brought their A-game, technically and artistically. 2007 was another good year - for all that people remember Joubert as winning with a "watered down" program, it was actually a pretty strong skate if you look at the protocols, and of course Dai, Stephane and Tomas were awesome in the LP.

So we know it's possible to put together a complete program with quads (or at least one quad), and I believe this is what we should expect from champions. Evan Lysacek deserves great credit for what he accomplished, and no one wants to take that away from him; it's just that we have seen more exciting men's events in the past, and not just in the Yagudin/Plushenko years.

I think Brian should stop talking up three quad programs, which he never does, and go back to a two-quad LP like he did in 2006. It can be 4T and 4S or two 4Ts (one in combo), but I believe that would work best for him at this point in his career. IIRC, he has not won any LP in international competition since 2007 Euros - it's getting pretty ridiculous.

Yes, I agree, and I also find it laughable that Sandra Bezic tries to convince the US viewing audience that Evan is so much more artistic and choreographically aware than Brian Joubert is. She is so delusional! Yes, Lysacek performed better than Joubert did at this championship, but that doesn't mean he is a better artist, or even an artist, period.

I get the feeling that with no eeeeeeevil Russians or Eastern European judges on the horizon, Brian Joubert has been set up as the bad guy by some in the NA media. It's a pity, because their job should be pointing out his strengths and weaknesses and giving an accurate picture of what he's doing, not selling audiences on more conspiracy theories. Now, kind of OT, isn't Sandra the one who claimed M/B have the best lifts and throws of any pairs team? Does she even watch pairs and skaters from other countries?

Lysacek's skating when he's on can be very exciting and he's very deserving of his win here, but in terms of skating skills and interpretation I feel Brian is stronger - the latter, at least in part, is because because unlike Evan, Joubert chooses music that suits his style of skating rather than going for the usual suspects, musically speaking . At the end of last season there was a thread on music suggestions for skaters, and I believe there were some good ideas for Evan in there. A pity he's not on GS .

 

[Mafke]

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing Joubert has no artistry. That's not true. I liked his long program. He skates it with intensity, and he can draw the crowd in.

That's not artistry, that's charisma (which joubert does have in spades). He can fill the arena with his personality (especially when he hits the big tricks)

But in terms of most of the traditional metrics of 'artistry': matching his elements (and inbetweens) to the music in interesting ways, attention to detail in terms of body position and posture, being able to create interesting programs full of interesting technique ..... No, I've never detected anything like artistry from him at all. (Not that Lysacek is much, if any, better).

 

[ks777]

I just watched Nobunari Oda and Denis Ten finally and I have to say I am very impressed with Oda's quad and Denis's talent!!

Oda's quad toe is so easy for him!! wow! I know he is capable of doing a 4/3/3 and there should be an extra points for doing 3/3/3 or 4/3/3 because it is very difficult. Too bad about doing too many jump combos, he would have had about 155 in LP.

Denis is the future of men's skating. I can't believe he is only 15yo!!

 

[museksk8r]

They are required to do an axel in the long program the men and women have the choice of doing a triple axel or a double axel. A lot of the men who don't have quads though do a double axel because they can't legally do another triple.

Yes, my mistake. Per the ISU Rules............
"Senior Well Balanced Program
A well balanced Free Skating program for Men must contain:
• maximum of 8 jump elements (one of which must be an Axel type jump);
• maximum of 3 spins, one of which must be a spin combination, one a flying spin and one a spin with only one position;
• maximum of 2 step sequences of a different nature.

A well balanced Free Skating program for Ladies must contain:
• maximum of 7 jump elements (one of which must be an Axel type jump);
• maximum of 3 spins, one of which must be a spin combination, one a flying spin and one a spin with only one position;
• maximum of 1 step sequence;
• maximum of 1 spiral sequence."

 

[Mafke]

So we know it's possible to put together a complete program with quads (or at least one quad), and I believe this is what we should expect from champions

Expect all you want. But unless the Powers that Be decide to either make a quad a requirement in the LP or reserve the right to declare no gold medal (as in piano competitions) there's no way to guarantee quads in the winner's program. Especially at the end of the season when they're knocking themselves out with complicated spins and footwork. IIRC Plushenko didn't change his spins or footwork much for CoP (and gave up pretense of trying to do anything but the jumps well). I don't think even Plushenko in his prime could do CoP friendly programs and quads consistently (he'd probably be like the quad guys now, with a mix of tours de force and meltdowns)

My impression (just that I've done no systematic study) is that the quadsters have one or two good performances a season but they can't guarantee that that will happen at worlds. if you rated all the mens LPs this season, what would the top three performances be?

 

[museksk8r]

Now, kind of OT, isn't Sandra the one who claimed M/B have the best lifts and throws of any pairs team? Does she even watch pairs and skaters from other countries?

Yes, she is, and I've endlessly criticized the dimwit for spewing such complete nonsense.

For me personally, I see Brian and Evan pretty much on the same level speaking of PCS, though I would mark Lysacek higher on transitions and Joubert higher on performance execution.

 

[skatingbc]

That's not artistry, that's charisma (which joubert does have in spades). He can fill the arena with his personality (especially when he hits the big tricks)

But in terms of most of the traditional metrics of 'artistry': matching his elements (and inbetweens) to the music in interesting ways, attention to detail in terms of body position and posture, being able to create interesting programs full of interesting technique ..... No, I've never detected anything like artistry from him at all. (Not that Lysacek is much, if any, better).

ITA. Brian is technically proficient and an excellent performer, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's artistic.

I was thinking a strong tango could possibly work for him. Any opinions?

 

[jennylovskt]

Expect all you want. But unless the Powers that Be decide to either make a quad a requirement in the LP or reserve the right to declare no gold medal (as in piano competitions) there's no way to guarantee quads in the winner's program.

Oh, it can. Raise quad's value can do the trick.

 

[skatingbc]

Oh, it can. Raise quad's value can do the trick.

I thought they already did that...

 

[enlight78]

ITA. Brian is technically proficient and an excellent performer, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's artistic.

I was thinking a strong tango could possibly work for him. Any opinions?

It would be good with the right choreographer. I would like to see him do a rock ballad. Thats not far from his techno.

 

[skatingbc]

It would be good with the right choreographer. I would like to see him do a rock ballad. Thats not far from his techno.

That might be ok. I'd rather see him step out of his comfort zone a bit though. I want to see what he can really do.

 

[Buttercup]

I was thinking a strong tango could possibly work for him. Any opinions?

Oh, I hope not. The last thing we need is another tango, especially not from Brian. His preference seems to be for soundtracks, and there are actually a lot of really good ones to choose from that would require him to do something new as a performer without being too much outside his comfort zone.

Mafke, please note that in the examples I brought up, none of the skaters present was called Plushenko; IMO, Plushy's best programs were pre-CoP so he's not really relevant for my argument.

 

[jennylovskt]

I thought they already did that...

I thought they haven't done that as Joubert suggested. Or I missed something?

 

[skatingbc]

I thought they haven't done that as Joubert suggested. Or I missed something?

I thought they bumped the quad up from 8 to 9.8 for a quad toe a couple years ago.

 

[Buttercup]

I thought they bumped the quad up from 8 to 9.8 for a quad toe a couple years ago.

No, it was 9.0. Joubert wants it at 12. I think that's excessive, but 10.5 seems about right, and they should adjust the GOEs so that positive quad GOEs are worth the same as negative quad GOEs.

 

[bekalc]

ITA. Brian is technically proficient and an excellent performer, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's artistic.

But isn't artistry subjective?... I mean there's something to be said for someone who performs for the audience. When I think of no artistry I think of someone like Goebel who had no charisma and couldn't really even perform to the crowd.

Or someone like Rachael Flatt who is flatt. Personally I don't need all skaters to be alike for me to enjoy them....If everyone was balletic like it would be really boring. Not everyone is going to be John Curry, but I don't think that's a crime either, because if everyone was like that this sport would be cookie cutter.

Perhaps that's why artistry isn't necessarily the "right word" and presentation is a better word.

 

[skatingbc]

No, it was 9.0. Joubert wants it at 12. I think that's excessive, but 10.5 seems about right, and they should adjust the GOEs so that positive quad GOEs are worth the same as negative quad GOEs.

Ahh ok. I wasn't sure. 12 points seems a bit excessive. I really don't want to see skaters attempt it just so they could get 7 points for a fully-rotated fall. No thanks. I wouldn't mind if they just kept that base mark where it is.

I agree about the GOEs. I don't understand how anyone could see any differently!