Women and the Quad

Decoder · Oct 7, 2019

Elucidus said:
http://www.globetrottingbyphilipher...empo-sending-figure-skating-into-future-shock

Thanks for the link.

Edit:

“Four quads is so far beyond every other lady it may discourage many from continuing unless components can be weighted equal to technical somehow. We’ll see.”

What are they going to do? At least they cannot change anything in the middle of the game, right?

Edwin · Oct 8, 2019

Elucidus said:
http://www.globetrottingbyphilipher...empo-sending-figure-skating-into-future-shock

LOL, that comment of yours .... :thumbsup:

Of course, Auxier would talk a different tale if it were Liu, but then perhaps they'll fall back on the 'asian genetics' excuse

Decoder said:
Thanks for the link.

Edit:

“Four quads is so far beyond every other lady it may discourage many from continuing unless components can be weighted equal to technical somehow. We’ll see.”

What are they going to do? At least they cannot change anything in the middle of the game, right?

Not right now, they'll wait for Trusova going 'Dracarys' in every senior competition she enters and what effect it will have on the outcome, and probably wait for her to burn out or get injured (which is sort of cowardly)

A rule change to curb Trusova mid cycle will never get passed, but perhaps some more tweaking of the TES value table? An emergency age raise will hurt the only non Russian other junior quadster at the moment ...
And as the rumour goes, USFS is the most powerful entity in ISU's figure skating board, NBC holds all the Olympic broacasting rights etc etc. These certain officials talk with split tongues most likely.

There is no limit on what other federations can do other than apply the Tutberidze Effect themselves, instead of looking with fear towards current Russian novices who also might turn into quad monsters.

The general consensus with these male 'old hands' is conservatism, i.e. curvy, 'sexy' ladies doing nice figures on ice.

VenusHalley · Oct 8, 2019

I sorta hope that Tuktik manages to land quad in competition to prove you do not to be a stick to succeed.

Surya came close to landing quads even later in her career when she was no longer wiry willowy wisp of a girl. Maybe enough muscle mass could do that trick.

And if we have healthy women landing jumps hopefully young girls will not feel need to stay under 35 kilos.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

Edwin said:
They are. And they point out the dilemma this sport seems to be facing, athletics vs aesthetics. Curb the quads, keep the curves, LOL, for they are most likely mutually exclusive with quads (and triksels most likely as well).
Until Trusova, Shcherbakova, Valiyeva, Akat'yeva and Liu prove otherwise while growing up and getting curvy ...

It will also divide the audience, we'll see how that will pan out. I for one love the sheer excitement of quad battles

re body image, this seems mostly an issue with a certain demographic, and is indeed a can of worms.

Actually many of the ladies who have landed triple axel are not skinny little girls.
Liza T for example

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

All those "low-key" allusions that "someone should do something about it" is completely stupid to me. It's like saying that a sprinter shouldn't run 100m below 10 s because it would discouradge the others or high jumper shouldn't be allowed to jump over a certain height etc. This is called development, if people like that would be running sports we would be still at the levels we were 30/50/100 years ago. High achievements should inspire and encouradge and I think they did in the past. And I agree that pretty big part of the problem some people have with that this progress came from the fact that the those revolutionary athletes are from a country some don't want to be friendly with.

As for the body talks. Sorry, but there is a reason why certain body types excell at certain branches of sport (or other physical activities like ballet). If there was basketball in the Middle Earth, I bet of all the races dwarves wouldn't the most succesful generally (there can be exception but exception is not a rule). And nobody talks like "I wanna see 'men of average height' being more succesful in it so stop training six-footers". To be honest, in men's figure skating you can also observe that top skaters changed through time. Yuzu or Nathan are certainly quite different types than Pluschenko was in his times, yet no one complains that he wanna see "more curvy men". It's just completely stupid idea.

JazzUp · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
All those "low-key" allusions that "someone should do something about it" is completely stupid to me. It's like saying that a sprinter shouldn't run 100m below 10 s because it would discourage the others or high jumper shouldn't be allowed to jump over a certain height etc.

Oh, but they did say that, quite recently - when ISU got scared by Alina so much that they had to come up with the Zagitova rule. Some 'bright' minds in ISU might come up with something similar regarding Sasha too.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
As a man I don't see anything bad in appreciating "womanly figure", though I don't know why that should be promoted tu a law that if you don't fit to someone's ideal it should be done something about it. Also, where is written that Anna, Sasha and all can't be ladies that look like ladies. For now they look like pretty normal 15 y. o. girls to me. Just look at Alina, if someone really enjoys to take the discussion this way, then I say that she is pretty close to my imagination of "womanly figure" now, she came through the growth spurt successfully so I don't see a problem (if this even could be called a problem).

I don't think any one body type should be promoted as the ideal to be fair.
I just think there's way too much emphasis on the whole "only tiny skinny girls can do certain jumps" theory.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

JazzUp said:
Oh, but they did say that, quite recently - when ISU got scared by Alina so much that they had to come up with the Zagitova rule. Some 'bright' minds in ISU might come up with something similar regarding Sasha too.

As much as I like Alina, that was different. Programs have always been balanced to some degree and encouraged to be. The bonus points in the second half was being abused far beyond it's original intention, which was actually meant to spread the jumps out MORE not less.
Backloading entire programs didn't break rules but it bent them a little and certainly didn't constitute a balanced program.
Also, Alina was not the only skater doing them, and the rules were only changed after Olympics. If the ISU (Who gain a lot of out Alina's popularity so why would "they" be scared of her lol) really didn't want Alina or anyone else for that matter to win with backloaded programs they could have changed the ruling in time for Olympic season... and they could if they really wanted to, yeah it's very late on in the cycle for such a drastic change but what would stop them? If you think the ISU only changed the rules because they were "scared of Alina" then they can do what they want, right?

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

Mishaminion said:
I don't think any one body type should be promoted as the ideal to be fair.
I just think there's way too much emphasis on the whole "only tiny skinny girls can do certain jumps" theory.

I don't think that is a theory that would be backed by serious theorists, yet there will be always acertain advantage with particular body types for certain activities as I've stated already. And if there was a shift with men (just look - Pluschenko - over 1.8 m, grown strong man, bogatyr

vs. Chen 1.66 m, Hanyu 1.7 m, both very skinny, teen-looking men), than why people object about the ladies look.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
I don't think that is a theory that wouldbe backed by serious theorists, yet there will be always acertain advantage with particular body types for certain activities as I've stated already. And if there was a shift with men (just look - Pluschenko - over 1.8 m, grown strong man, bogatyr vs. Chen 1.66 m, Hanyu 1.7 m, both very skinny, teen-looking men), than why people object about the ladies look.

Mostly because it is women who suffer way more body shaming and pressure to look a certain way than men do.

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

Mishaminion said:
As much as I like Alina, that was different. Programs have always been balanced to some degree and encouraged to be. The bonus points in the second half was being abused far beyond it's original intention, which was actually meant to spread the jumps out MORE not less.
Backloading entire programs didn't break rules but it bent them a little and certainly didn't constitute a balanced program.
Also, Alina was not the only skater doing them, and the rules were only changed after Olympics. If the ISU (Who gain a lot of out Alina's popularity so why would "they" be scared of her lol) really didn't want Alina or anyone else for that matter to win with backloaded programs they could have changed the ruling in time for Olympic season... and they could if they really wanted to, yeah it's very late on in the cycle for such a drastic change but what would stop them? If you think the ISU only changed the rules because they were "scared of Alina" then they can do what they want, right?

Serious changes in rules aren't applied just from season to season not even by ISU, it requires some planning and counceling. Also I doubt that anybody expected the success and stability Alina had achieved. As for "anybody else", anybody else tried to put as many jumps as possible into the second half of the program, but only Alina and Aliona managed to skate two fully backloaded programs. Which weren't autotelic for me, all those programs made complete sense and there was nothing unballanced in it. It's just that people who normally say "but figure skating is not just about jumps" were suddenly somehow saying "Alina didn't do anything in the first half of the program" - so the spins, the stsq, the choreo was suddenly anything.

flanker · Oct 8, 2019

Mishaminion said:
Mostly because it is women who suffer way more body shaming and pressure to look a certain way than men do.

Then why people contribute to it by talks about Sasha and co.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
Then why people contribute to it by talks about Sasha and co.

Because, while that body type certainly helps get those quads done, it is not the only one capable of them and I'm tired of hearing people claim it is.
Obviously if someone naturally has that kind of body type/genetics that's fair enough, and they shouldn't be made to feel they aren't womanly enough.
However, plenty of young girls do not have that body type but aspire to be as successful, possibly putting extra pressure on them to be as thin as possible and for many of them it is not healthy, physically and mentally.
Gracie Gold, for example. We all know what happened to her and sadly a lot of recent comments about her are nothing more than thinly veiled "fat" shaming.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

IndiaP12 said:
Hey chill out, some of them can’t help looking like that. Anna is obviously slender due to genetics. She’s both unlucky and lucky, because she is very smol she lacks the muscle Sasha has.

The problem isn't that they are genetically tiny, the problem is the pressure on others with a different body type to try to force themselves in to a similar one.
I mentioned Gracie and she's far from the only skater to have suffered from mental issues and eating disorders.

Autumn Leaves · Oct 8, 2019

Gracie had these issues long before Sasha landed her first quad. The pressure on skaters, gymnasts and dancers to look in in a certain way has always been there. So let‘s not use eating disorders as an excuse for rules that diminish the value of quads. I mean, even if we ban all quads and triples, skaters will still aim to look elegant. The solution isn‘t curbing the development of the sport, but promoting healthy eating and knowledge about nutrition. So lets leave ED out of the quad conversation.

Plus, right now very few skaters are jumping quads, so we cannot make conclusions on the ideal body type for quads. Maybe tomorrow someone with more weight will start landing them and will prove this narrative wrong.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

Autumn Leaves said:
Gracie had these issues long before Sasha landed her first quad. The pressure on skaters, gymnasts and dancers to look in in a certain way has always been there. So let‘s not use eating disorders as an excuse for rules that diminish the value of quads. I mean, even if we ban all quads and triples, skaters will still aim to look elegant. The solution isn‘t curbing the development of the sport, but promoting healthy eating and knowledge about nutrition. So lets leave ED out of the quad conversation.

Plus, right now very few skaters are jumping quads, so we cannot make conclusions on the ideal body type for quads. Maybe tomorrow someone with more weight will start landing them and will prove this narrative wrong.

I have no issue with quads, I think it's a good thing. I began watching figure skating around the time the Triple Axel and 3-3 were new and exciting for ladies, around 1990ish.
Kristi Yamaguchi did a Triple Lutz-Triple Toe at 1992 Olympics, Midori Ito a Triple axel. They would almost be competitive jumpwise in more recent years.
Not much has changed since then (before the quadsters I mean), apart from some skaters doing more difficult Triple Loop combos and multiple Triple Axels.

Hopefully more skaters with various body types will try the quads, Liza apparently working on one and if anyone other than the tiny queens can succeed at them, I feel it's her. She's got the power and the technique.

Deripashka · Oct 8, 2019

LoL then they should make a categories in FS, same as they are in MMA, box or K1. There should be category for girls which cant do quads or triple axels and Sasha category. But its still ridiculous to me. Its like complaining that weightlifters have to be and are big guys, so there should be some positive discrimantion for weaker lifters because they can feel bad when cant lift weights as better weightlifters.

JazzUp · Oct 8, 2019

Mishaminion said:
Backloading entire programs didn't break rules

Period.

Mishaminion said:
Also, Alina was not the only skater doing them,

When the rule was implemented, she effectively was the only one (in seniors).

Mishaminion said:
and the rules were only changed after Olympics. If the ISU (Who gain a lot of out Alina's popularity so why would "they" be scared of her lol) really didn't want Alina or anyone else for that matter to win with backloaded programs they could have changed the ruling in time for Olympic season... and they could if they really wanted to, yeah it's very late on in the cycle for such a drastic change but what would stop them? If you think the ISU only changed the rules because they were "scared of Alina" then they can do what they want, right?

ISU, like any gang/organization, has certain rules

Changes that some ISU members want to make to the rules can be added to the agenda of the future planned meetings only. They pushed it through and voted for it as soon as they could. I'm afraid they'll vote for some "Trusova rule" even before discussing the separation of "artistic/athletic" programmes.

nussnacker · Oct 8, 2019

The fact that some think women have to be curvy to be desirable, to be attractive to some viewers is equally as disgusting as the fact that some people want to see only slim model looking women.
This isn’t a beauty competition, you want to see models with curves, go watch beauty contests. Women in this sport aren’t there to be pleasing anyone, they are there because they are athletes. This is a sport and women in this sport shouldn’t be objectified and subjected to criticism, whether they are skinny or curvy, it’s plain rude and disgusting.
Let them be the way they are.
I find it utterly horrifying that it’s women here telling other women how they should be looking, and that men here are trying to say all shapes should be welcome, generally it’s the other way around, as the likes of Zhulin are usually voicing the opinions about „sexy curves missing, hence it makes everything unwatchable“. It’s so repulsive that people feel totally fine to subject female athletes to these kinds of talks times and times again, this has to stop.
Mods, you should start doing something.

Mishaminion · Oct 8, 2019

JazzUp said:
Period.

When the rule was implemented, she effectively was the only one (in seniors).

ISU, like any gang/organization, has certain rules Changes that some ISU members want to make to the rules can be added to the agenda of the future planned meetings only. They pushed it through and voted for it as soon as they could. I'm afraid they'll vote for some "Trusova rule" even before discussing the separation of "artistic/athletic" programmes.

Still, I believe the rule was changed because of the reasons I outlined, not because the ISU were "scared of Alina."
It was done to restore and reinforce the original intention of the second half bonus, which you seem to ignore was to balance programs out.

Women and the Quad

Decoder

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

VenusHalley

Mishaminion

flanker

JazzUp

#янехомяк!

Mishaminion

Mishaminion

flanker

Mishaminion

flanker

flanker

Mishaminion

Mishaminion

Autumn Leaves

Mishaminion

Deripashka

JazzUp

#янехомяк!

nussnacker

one and only

Mishaminion

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