Women and the Quad

Mishaminion said:

Still, I believe the rule was changed because of the reasons I outlined, not because the ISU were "scared of Alina."
It was done to restore and reinforce the original intention of the second half bonus, which you seem to ignore was to balance programs out.

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Folks that insist her programme was "unbalanced" seem to ignore the fact that she did in fact have quite complex ChSq, FCSp4, StSq4 in the 1st half too; which I find to be ridiculous.

This is really off-topic, so let's agree to disagree, and discuss Ladies & the quads instead

The thing is women are naturally curvy. Very few stay rail thin and tiny without hint of breasts and hips until their adulthood.

Sure scientifically rail thin and tiny rotates better... in reality... do we want girls closing their mouths and not eating or living off protein powder to prevent the curves forming?

nussnacker said:

The fact that some think women have to be curvy to be desirable, to be attractive to some viewers is equally as disgusting as the fact that some people want to see only slim model looking women.
This isn’t a beauty competition, you want to see models with curves, go watch beauty contests. Women in this sport aren’t there to be pleasing anyone, they are there because they are athletes. This is a sport and women in this sport shouldn’t be objectified and subjected to criticism, whether they are skinny or curvy, it’s plain rude and disgusting.
Let them be the way they are.
I find it utterly horrifying that it’s women here telling other women how they should be looking, and that men here are trying to say all shapes should be welcome, generally it’s the other way around, as the likes of Zhulin are usually voicing the opinions about „sexy curves missing, hence it makes everything unwatchable“. It’s so repulsive that people feel totally fine to subject female athletes to these kinds of talks times and times again, this has to stop.

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I'm not telling anyone how they should look. The unfortunate thing is that lots of people DO try to do that.
A more womanly shape is just what I'm used to, I don't demand or expect anyone to be the same way.
But the reverse is often true of some people. Comments made about only certain body types being capable of quads, is only going to encourage those not blessed with such a small physique to harm themselves to try to attain it.
The sad thing is in general women are not pressured to be "larger/curvier/plumper" whatever you want to call it, they are 99% of the time pressured to be model thin, bombarded with advertising and imagery promoting this as ideal. Which leads to horrible insecurities, depression and eating disorders.
Girls/women are often bullied/harassed/heckled for being "fat" I've had it happen myself, strangers commenting out loud nasty things about my weight.
It very rarely happens the other way around.
Bigger women still find it harder to buy clothes in their size while small ones have plenty of choice.
It's incredibly one sided.

JazzUp said:

Folks that insist her programme was "unbalanced" seem to ignore the fact that she did in fact have quite complex ChSq, FCSp4, StSq4 in the 1st half too; which I find to be ridiculous.

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That program was alright and Alina pulled it off.... they were more scared of slew of backloaded programs coming than of Alina lol.

Mishaminion said:

I'm not telling anyone how they should look. The unfortunate thing is that lots of people DO try to do that.
A more womanly shape is just what I'm used to, I don't demand or expect anyone to be the same way.
But the reverse is often true of some people. Comments made about only certain body types being capable of quads, is only going to encourage those not blessed with such a small physique to harm themselves to try to attain it.
The sad thing is in general women are not pressured to be "larger/curvier/plumper" whatever you want to call it, they are 99% of the time pressured to be model thin, bombarded with advertising and imagery promoting this as ideal. Which leads to horrible insecurities, depression and eating disorders.
Girls/women are often bullied/harassed/heckled for being "fat" I've had it happen myself, strangers commenting out loud nasty things about my weight.
It very rarely happens the other way around.
Bigger women still find it harder to buy clothes in their size while small ones have plenty of choice.
It's incredibly one sided.

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Women of all sizes should be welcome, but not at the expense of slimmer petite women, like Satoko or Elizabet. By calling them „stick-for-legs little waifs“ you are degrading these wonderful athletes and there’s no excuse for that. I’m sorry that you got bullied, but taking it on the petite skinny women is just showing that it’s you who is having the problem with these ladies, and I can’t accept or understand that. The women like that feel equally hard in the society, as they are constantly compared to have a „child-like“ body, which is so so horrible, and people like you find it appropriate to do that and are part of the problem.
I will not be responding to anyone in this thread, as going into this dumpster was the worst decision of the day. Educate yourself, and find love for people who are different than you.

VenusHalley said:

The thing is women are naturally curvy. Very few stay rail thin and tiny without hint of breasts and hips until their adulthood.

Sure scientifically rail thin and tiny rotates better... in reality... do we want girls closing their mouths and not eating or living off protein powder to prevent the curves forming?

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Aaand, we have girls closing their mouths and not eating or living off protein powder that are precisely those who are also excellent in quads? Something to support that? I'm watching JGP competitions for two years now and I have to say that I don't find Sasha, Anna, Kamila or other skaters with excellent tech contend looking somehow different (more skinny, hungry, whatever) than the other skaters of the same age.

IMO, make the minimum age limit 18 years old for senior, Olympic-level men and women. That way, the competition is not between pre-pubescent bodies and post-pubescent bodies - it is all (generally) going to be individuals who have mostly finished growing. If you're a "waif" type like Satoko or Elisabet, that's great! If you're a "curvier" body type like Liza or Zhenya, that's also great!

I don't care what body type anyone has as long as they are happy and healthy.

JazzUp said:

Folks that insist her programme was "unbalanced" seem to ignore the fact that she did in fact have quite complex ChSq, FCSp4, StSq4 in the 1st half too; which I find to be ridiculous.

This is really off-topic, so let's agree to disagree, and discuss Ladies & the quads instead

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Unbalanced as far as jumps go I should have clarified.
But yeah... moving on

nussnacker said:

Women of all sizes should be welcome, but not at the expense of slimmer petite women, like Satoko or Elizabet. By calling them „stick-for-legs little waifs“ you are degrading these wonderful athletes and there’s no excuse for that. I’m sorry that you got bullied, but taking it on the petite skinny women is just showing that it’s you who is having the problem with these ladies, and I can’t accept or understand that. The women like that feel equally hard in the society, as they are constantly compared to have a „child-like“ body, which is so so horrible, and people like you find it appropriate to do that and are part of the problem.
I will not be responding to anyone in this thread, as going into this dumpster was the worst decision of the day. Educate yourself, and find love for people who are different than you.

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You're missing the point.
I have no problem with any body type
My problem is with society and the constant pressure it puts on all women to be thin. You can't deny that is true, it has been that way for years.

I have no problem with skinny people at all, and if you find my description of them offensive then I apologise, I talk about myself in a similar way, such as calling myself a fat cow. Chalk it up to self depreciating British humour.

Just to clarify:

I have zero problem with any body type.

If someone is naturally thin: Absolutely fine

If someone starves themselves/or other methods considered eating disorders in order to fit the "popular" thin image: NOT fine.

andromache said:

IMO, make the minimum age limit 18 years old for senior, Olympic-level men and women. That way, the competition is not between pre-pubescent bodies and post-pubescent bodies - it is all (generally) going to be individuals who have mostly finished growing. If you're a "waif" type like Satoko or Elisabet, that's great! If you're a "curvier" body type like Liza or Zhenya, that's also great!

I don't care what body type anyone has as long as they are happy and healthy.

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Aaand, why now? All those ladies who are and were given as an example of maturity and all now, started senior competitions at the age of 15/16, some even earlier when the rules allowed it. Including Carolina Kostner, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Tara Lipinski and so on. And many of them had long succesful career in seniors despite starting so early. And nobody is doubting about their achievements whatever "bodies" they had that time. So why now? Why now it is a problem? I seriously don't believe it is a matter of age or health or body what concerns people who are calling for that. Not at all. After all, just by rising the age limit the only thing you will achieve would potentially be that senior competitions would start to be more intense and interresting, while you will put senior competitions into the shadow - those are the skaters who are afraid to compete with the younger skaters. You will not achieve the lowering of the tech content, because the juniors will still fight for the victory.

Also, there is one other thing that shouldn't be omitted, figure skating is a very expensive sport and without prices for medals in the main competitions (or at least attendance which can secure the sponsors) many talented skaters will have the problem to stay in the sport for so long without being of wealthy family. I don't want figure skating to be a sport only for moneybags and parvenu.

No one ever posted a rational reason for rising the limits (no real data about health, which would be seriously the only thing that could be taken into consideration), only personal matters, preferences and whatever else. That's not for what I'm willing to raise a banner.

flanker said:

Aaand, why now? All those ladies who are and were given as an example of maturity and all now, started senior competitions at the age of 15/16, some even earlier when the rules allowed it. Including Carolina Kostner, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Tara Lipinski and so on. And many of them had long succesful career in seniors despite starting so early. And nobody is doubting about their achievements whatever "bodies" they had that time. So why now? Why now it is a problem? I seriously don't believe it is a matter of age or health or body what concerns people who are calling for that. Not at all. After all, just by rising the age limit the only thing you will achieve would potentially be that senior competitions would start to be more intense and interresting, while you will put senior competitions into the shadow - those are the skaters who are afraid to compete with the younger skaters. You will not achieve the lowering of the tech content, because the juniors will still fight for the victory.

Also, there is one other thing that shouldn't be omitted, figure skating is a very expensive sport and without prices for medals in the main competitions (or at least attendance which can secure the sponsors) many talented skaters will have the problem to stay in the sport for so long without being of wealthy family. I don't want figure skating to be a sport only for moneybags and parvenu.

No one ever posted a rational reason for rising the limits (no real data about health, which would be seriously the only thing that could be taken into consideration), only personal matters, preferences and whatever else. That's not for what I'm willing to raise a banner.

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I was waiting for someone to get mad at me for this.

Olympic sports should be for adults. I have felt this way for a long time. You keep saying:

So why now? Why now it is a problem?

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Well, I think it's been a problem for a long time! It was just easier to ignore when the children weren't dominating. Now that children are much more dominant than ever before, of course the issue is going to get more attention. Not to mention that this has been a concern for many ever since the abolition of figures, as well as Tara Lipinski's OGM (within a few years of that she had to quit skating due to injuries).

The current age limit is completely arbitrary. What is it based on? Nothing. Maybe we should abolish the age limit altogether and let 10 year old compete with 25 year olds? Of course, that is ridiculous. But 18 is the legal age of adulthood in most of the world, so that makes sense as an age limit.

Furthermore, no senior skater has ever said that they are "afraid" of competing against the younger skaters. I'm just not sure how logical it is. Why does Trusova get to compete in seniors but Kamila and Alysa do not? Because of an arbitrary age limit.

Of course, junior competitions will still exist. Why wouldn't they? And they would be wonderful competitions, just like they are now! They just wouldn't be at the Olympics. The juniors could have a Youth Olympic Games competition.

Why do you think senior level competitions would be put in the shadow? We would still have ladies doing incredible tech at the senior level - we have Liza and Lilibet doing difficult jumps now, as will Trusova when she is 18. The field will still be pushed technically at both the senior and junior levels. Both levels will be impressive.

You will not achieve the lowering of the tech content, because the juniors will still fight for the victory.

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I never said I wanted to lower the tech content.

Also, there is one other thing that shouldn't be omitted, figure skating is a very expensive sport and without prices for medals in the main competitions (or at least attendance which can secure the sponsors) many talented skaters will have the problem to stay in the sport for so long without being of wealthy family. I don't want figure skating to be a sport only for moneybags and parvenu.

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I am confused - you said you think that junior competitions will be intense and interesting, and senior competitions will be overshadowed - with that logic, the best junior skaters shouldn't have problems getting sponsors, right?

Even ignoring that logical contradiction - what about skaters who do not "peak" until they are in their 20s? If they can manage to stay in the sport without a wealthy family to support them, so can a 15 year old.

Also, male skaters - most of whom do not peak and get sponsor attention until they are at least 18 years old, if not older - seem to do fine. If they can do it, so can the ladies.

Mishaminion said:

The sad thing is in general women are not pressured to be "larger/curvier/plumper" whatever you want to call it, they are 99% of the time pressured to be model thin

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People love to be dramatic and exaggerate so much. Sure, most people (in our western society) regard a slim body without 'flab' as the ideal, but that's still far away from 'model thin'.

Mishaminion said:

Girls/women are often bullied/harassed/heckled for being "fat" I've had it happen myself, strangers commenting out loud nasty things about my weight.
It very rarely happens the other way around.

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How would you know, if you yourself aren't skinny (judging by what you say about your weight here)?
You might feel that you never hear objectionable things being said about skinny people, but since you're not affected, you wouldn't be sensitised to such comments and simply wouldn't notice them as much. I certainly don't pick up on as much negativity towards overweight (or even average-sized) people as most people claim that there is.
The term 'skinny shaming' wasn't invented just so that skinny people could feel included in the whole debate about body shaming, it is actually a thing.

Mishaminion said:

Bigger women still find it harder to buy clothes in their size while small ones have plenty of choice.
It's incredibly one sided.

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Sure skinny people will fit into most clothes, but that doesn't mean that they fit properly, never mind flatter their shape. You're best bet is still to have an average sized and shaped body.

ETA:

nussnacker said:

Women of all sizes should be welcome, but not at the expense of slimmer petite women, like Satoko or Elizabet. By calling them „stick-for-legs little waifs“ you are degrading these wonderful athletes and there’s no excuse for that. I’m sorry that you got bullied, but taking it on the petite skinny women is just showing that it’s you who is having the problem with these ladies, and I can’t accept or understand that. The women like that feel equally hard in the society, as they are constantly compared to have a „child-like“ body, which is so so horrible, and people like you find it appropriate to do that and are part of the problem.
I will not be responding to anyone in this thread, as going into this dumpster was the worst decision of the day. Educate yourself, and find love for people who are different than you.

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Couldn't agree more.

I think that people in the skating community, and journalists who cover skating and skating fans in general (who tended to skew to older demographics in the days when access to watching skating in the media was via TV broadcasts and not online) have worried about younger girls dominating the sport ever since the end of school figures in the early 1990s.

I believe there were some age limit rules introduced around that time, but I don't know the details.

The age limits we're familiar now, more or less (there were some exceptions that are now gone), were introduced at the 1996 ISU Congress. So I think that Oksana Baiul and Michelle Kwan winning Worlds at 15 (with birthdays after July 1, though only a few days after in Kwan's case) were more on their mind than 13-year-old Tara Lipinski placing 15th at 1996 Worlds -- although there may have been some sense that Lipinski was poised to be part of the domination of teenagers as of the next season, as it turns out she was.

I think there are several different considerations when determining whether there should be age limits and what those limits should be, and how the sport should be structured.

*What do audiences most enjoy watching -- which audiences? (In numbers, viewing habits, and also willingness to pay for tickets or now for video streams or to attract sponsors who will support figure skating financially in order to reach those audiences)

*Physical safety of the competitors

*Psychological safety of the competitors

*Ability of skaters who so choose, and who are physically and financially able, to maintain long careers, not only for those skaters' sake but also in part so that the sport can offer the public recognizable stars (as opposed to careers that typically last ~2 years at senior level)

*Consensus on what kinds of skills and balance of different kinds of skills best reflects what skating experts consider "good skating"

*Trends in skill development and maintenance typical of growing girls, growing boys, grown women, and grown men

It's been known for decades -- even well back in the figures era -- that preteen and early-teen girls tend to find multirevolution jumps easier than adult young women.

Often a new generation of girls will be attempting more difficult jump content as juniors than the top senior ladies are including. And then those girls move up to seniors and raise the bar across the board -- until another group of juniors moves up with even higher content. Many individual female skaters will see a decline in jumping ability by late teens. Others will be able maintain their jump content and increase quality and non-jump skills. A few will even be able to add jump content as adults. But for most girls, jumping ability per se tends to peak by mid-teens.

For men, on the other hand, jumping ability tends to improve through late teens and often into early 20s.

Given that, and given all the different sometimes conflicting goals that policies would be designed to address, what's the best solution?

I think it's a mistake to take only one or two of those bullet points into account and to ignore all the rest when setting policies.

1111bm said:

People love to be dramatic and exaggerate so much. Sure, most people (in our western society) regard a slim body without 'flab' as the ideal, but that's still far away from 'model thin'.



How would you know, if you yourself aren't skinny (judging by what you say about your weight here)?
You might feel that you never hear objectionable things being said about skinny people, but since you're not affected, you wouldn't be sensitised to such comments and simply wouldn't notice them as much. I certainly don't pick up on as much negativity towards overweight (or even average-sized) people as most people claim that there is.
The term 'skinny shaming' wasn't invented just so that skinny people could feel included in the whole debate about body shaming, it is actually a thing.


Sure skinny people will fit into most clothes, but that doesn't mean that they fit properly, never mind flatter their shape. You're best bet is still to have an average sized and shaped body.

ETA:


Couldn't agree more.

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No I don't see skinny women getting bullied, I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all but it is much much rarer than for us fatties.

I ended up disabled (long story) and my weight soared because I can hardly walk or exercise much, I'm naturally curvy to begin with. My best friend is very naturally slim and also disabled.
Which one of us do you think people say nasty things about? We both use a mobility scooter while out shopping together, who do you think gets nasty comments and whispers about why they think the scooter is used?

It shouldn't happen to either and it makes me angry that anyone be bullied for the way they look. But it does seem 9 out of 10 times the bullying is towards the larger people.

andromache said:

IMO, make the minimum age limit 18 years old for senior, Olympic-level men and women. That way, the competition is not between pre-pubescent bodies and post-pubescent bodies - it is all (generally) going to be individuals who have mostly finished growing. If you're a "waif" type like Satoko or Elisabet, that's great! If you're a "curvier" body type like Liza or Zhenya, that's also great!

I don't care what body type anyone has as long as they are happy and healthy.

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Who will suffer from such a decision? Of course, the USA whose only medal hope is Alysa Liu who is still 5 years from 18. Russia will suffer now but will survive because if you cut 3A there are still Zagitova, Tuktamysheva, and Medvedeva all of whom are in battle ready shape. And in 3 - 4 years the sheer numbers will play their statistical role. If you have 10 capable juniors the chances to have OGM contender after they go through puberty are way higher than when all your bets are just on 1 skater.

I did not take seriously "jumping bean" argument 5 years ago - now it is just irrelevant. Russian ladies renaissance started less than 10 years ago. Of course, it started with kids. There is a system now, a system which has recently reached en masse senior ranks. 3-4 more years - one can set 16 years or 18 years - it won't change anything. 5-6 more years - one can set 20 years threshold - Russia won't be punished. Others?

Once again, there is a system which started with kids and is growing up. To compete with it there should be another system and not political games with false pretexts. It looks like Korea understands it and may become a force in some years to come.

[email protected] said:

Who will suffer from such a decision? Of course, the USA whose only medal hope is Alysa Liu who is still 5 years from 18. Russia will suffer now but will survive because if you cut 3A there are still Zagitova, Tuktamysheva, and Medvedeva all of whom are in battle ready shape. And in 3 - 4 years the sheer numbers will play their statistical role. If you have 10 capable juniors the chances to have OGM contender after they go through puberty are way higher than when all your bets are just on 1 skater.

I did not take seriously "jumping bean" argument 5 years ago - now it is just irrelevant. Russian ladies renaissance started less than 10 years ago. Of course, it started with kids. There is a system now, a system which has recently reached en masse senior ranks. 3-4 more years - one can set 16 years or 18 years - it won't change anything. 5-6 more years - one can set 20 years threshold - Russia won't be punished. Others?

Once again, there is a system which started with kids and is growing up. To compete with it there should be another system and not political games with false pretexts. It looks like Korea understands it and may become a force in some years to come.

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Why are we making this about nationalism and specific countries? I honestly do not care about that. Are there people who do? Sure. But I'm not sure why you're quoting my post about it.

I have experienced skinny shaming, and even though it’s less common, it can still be hurtful.

But this is a sport, and many sports do have ideal/preferred physique, some quite specific.

oatmella said:

I have experienced skinny shaming, and even though it’s less common, it can still be hurtful.

But this is a sport, and many sports do have ideal/preferred physique, some quite specific.

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I feel for you about the body shaming bullying. It's awful, nobody should have to go through that, fat, thin or any shape for that matter.
To a degree skaters do need to be physically fit and athletic in general but figure skaters do exist in many shapes, not just very skinny. It seems at the moment the very young small framed girls can pull off the quads easier but that is not proof they're the only ones who are capable of them, yet I've see lots of people insist on it.
I trained in the hope of becoming a figure skater in my younger days and was always trying to fight my naturally curvy figure, suffering from depression and eating disorders as a result. When I lost too much weight, I looked awful and felt awful, I got sick often, I was always tired and people worried about me.
It is a fact quite a few skaters have gone through the same issues.
Perhaps it is something of a harsh reality that certain body types make the quad jumps in particular easier, but that doesn't mean those who possess other types can't ever do them at all.

Mishaminion said:

However, figure skaters exist in many shapes, not just very skinny. It seems at the moment the very young small framed girls can pull off the quads easier but that is not proof they're the only ones who are capable of them, yet I've see lots of people insist on it.

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It's not just the women. If you look at men doing quads, especially those who do more than one type of quad, they usually have very lean builds. We'll just have to see in the next few years whether the current crop of ladies doing the move will keep them. I hope they do, because I'd really not like to see a revolving door of 16 year old world champions who peak for a year or two.

andromache said:

I was waiting for someone to get mad at me for this.

Olympic sports should be for adults. I have felt this way for a long time. You keep saying:



Well, I think it's been a problem for a long time! It was just easier to ignore when the children weren't dominating. Now that children are much more dominant than ever before, of course the issue is going to get more attention. Not to mention that this has been a concern for many ever since the abolition of figures, as well as Tara Lipinski's OGM (within a few years of that she had to quit skating due to injuries).

The current age limit is completely arbitrary. What is it based on? Nothing. Maybe we should abolish the age limit altogether and let 10 year old compete with 25 year olds? Of course, that is ridiculous. But 18 is the legal age of adulthood in most of the world, so that makes sense as an age limit.

Furthermore, no senior skater has ever said that they are "afraid" of competing against the younger skaters. I'm just not sure how logical it is. Why does Trusova get to compete in seniors but Kamila and Alysa do not? Because of an arbitrary age limit.

Of course, junior competitions will still exist. Why wouldn't they? And they would be wonderful competitions, just like they are now! They just wouldn't be at the Olympics. The juniors could have a Youth Olympic Games competition.

Why do you think senior level competitions would be put in the shadow? We would still have ladies doing incredible tech at the senior level - we have Liza and Lilibet doing difficult jumps now, as will Trusova when she is 18. The field will still be pushed technically at both the senior and junior levels. Both levels will be impressive.



I never said I wanted to lower the tech content.



I am confused - you said you think that junior competitions will be intense and interesting, and senior competitions will be overshadowed - with that logic, the best junior skaters shouldn't have problems getting sponsors, right?

Even ignoring that logical contradiction - what about skaters who do not "peak" until they are in their 20s? If they can manage to stay in the sport without a wealthy family to support them, so can a 15 year old.

Also, male skaters - most of whom do not peak and get sponsor attention until they are at least 18 years old, if not older - seem to do fine. If they can do it, so can the ladies.

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There is not a single rule or reason that would support your statement "Olympic sports should be for adults." That is literally the only thing on which you are building your whole argumentation. That has absolutely no weight for me.

Any sport, olympic or not, is for those who are able to compete, to be prepared for it physically and mentally.

As for 18 years, that is also quite a consent, and even not the same in all countries. And even in countries that recognize 18 as a limit of the adulthood there are very different things that can do people younger and that cannot do people even older. Like driving in 16, right, but drinking in 21, right (when you can be killed in the army for several years already)? But this differs from country to country, so this also doesn't support your claim in any way.

Why not lowering the limit? I didn't set it to 15, so don't ask me. But just like 18 is in many countries related to "full adulthood", 15 is connected with "partial adulthood", which means that you are able to decide about many personal matters for yourself and bear responsibility. If you fulfill some conditions, you can marry even in civilized countries, although you didn't reach 18. In people's affairs the 18 is as much arbitrary as 15. In many countries you can regularly and legally work since 15 (if you have finished compulsory education), back to back with adults, just with some restrictions and protection, so why shouldn't you be involved in sport together with them, if you are able to compete in it.

Age limits should be for protecting young people who are not on the same level with seniors and who naturally need to prepare for their further career. But it shouldn't limit those who are physically and mentally prepared for those competitions.

As I said, the only argument I would understand is the health issue, but just like I've said, this artificial rising of the limit wouldn't make anything thet would contribute to it, even if we would come to the conclusion that it is somehow more dangerous. And there is no such thing that would support the rising the age limit would contribute to the health issues positively.

Also I do not think that the intensity of calling for the rising of the limits was ever so high as it is now, even when this very fact of young people competing together with seniors is not at all new. And it is also question whether there wasn't domination or whether there is domination now. Of those names I gave as an example many of them started to win senior competitions since they have started to compete in them even when they were at the age of 15, 16 or even younger. And today, if you speak about domination, on one side you confess that it is what is alarming you or others for those callings, but I still don't think that it is total domination or that it will be domination that would last. People like you mistook the shift in the sport quality and levels just with the age. It is the matter of new training methods and attitude, not so much the matter of age. I don't think that when Sasha at her 18 will compete with some 15 years old, that she would lose automatically. it's not domination of age, it's domination of quality and those callings are one of the ways how to prevent favoritess from stronger competitors. Which is not right.

What is so confusing about sponsors. Sponsors are naturally attracted to top competitions, not so matter about quality,. Just look on the number of viewers of JPG compared to even 2nd rate senior competition (most of the time, exceptions like Chelyabinsk are - exceptions). Spectators watch senior competitions more, sponsors are interrested in adult competitions more. There is no claimed contradiction in it.

Skaters who did not peak - well, most of them truly closed their carees. Generally there are many children who go in for sports, but only a few of them will stay in it till adulthood, which also has much to do with how they succeeded in it. Those who stayed in the sport and didn't peak - well, either they had money from other sources (like family and parents willing to support their child, which in many countries would be a problem and we have examples just now) or their chances are very limited.

So, no, there is not a single reason why the age limit should be raised.