Women and the Quad

colormyworld240 · Oct 8, 2019

jenaj said:
Girls are not growing taller when they are 18. They might be filling out more overall but not in height. And no normal girl is pre-pubescent at age 18. I personally don't think they should change the age to 18. What I do think is that more weight needs to be given to artistry, which would give some advantages to more mature skaters. Right now, the balance is too skewed towards tech. Even PCS is around 50% based on tech, when one considers the weight given to things like transitions and one-foot skating. Those are not inherently artistic moves (though they can be). But the fact is, nothing is going to change in this Olympic cycle, so the advantage goes to the young jumpers, whether or not it is a winning strategy for the long term.

Sure. I mean I myself had a bit of an "additional growth spurt" at around 18, but I also didn't have much of a growth spurt before that, it was quite steady. On the other hand, I know girls who had their growth spurts very young ~12 and haven't grown in height since they were 15. But I'd also like to point out that puberty is not just growing vertically, filling out and developing curves is also part of the pubescent arguments, which seems to the be the basis for those arguing for increasing the age limits. The whole "woman's body skating vs girls debate". And of course there are girls that don't grow or fill out much at all during puberty, but they still have gone through puberty and are no longer children.

I think that more weight should be given to artistry, but artistry is subjective and there is never going to be an overwhelming consensus to the point where we can say with certainty that one skater is more artistic than another, translating into deserving a higher score. Just look at the current quadsters in juniors, Kamila and Alysa. There have been many arguments on preferring one's artistry to another, disliking both, or bringing in that older skaters are more artistic. There are also those who think that they are quadsters and therefore only jumping beans, and those who think that they are amazing artists with the addition of quads and 3As. That's why it's difficult and more debatable to win with an artistic advantage, as that's subjective. Where as we can see clearly that a quad is more difficult than a triple, the differences in qualities of jumps, spins, and skating skills. This is something that appears with many professionals' opinions as well, whenever art is involved. Experts looks at different dancers and artists and some love their work while others hate it, all being more than qualified to critique their works. How do we measure artistry and assign values and points to them objectively in figure skating?

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
As was stated many times, sport at the top level is never without risking of health, and yes, there are and there will be injuries. But that's not much a question whether the age eligiblity for senior competitions would be 15 or 18 years. Even if we would come to the conclusion that quads are too much risky, than the question would be whether quads should be trained and jumped or not and not in what competition incl. the olympics. And I consider olympic games as the top competition where the top performances should be shown and top results should be scoced (I would not like to see junior worlds with higher scores than olympic games). But for now, as you say, we have no data that would support the concern that quads qould be more dangerous than 3-3s. It is of course also the matter of proper training, technique and devices that weren't at the disposal 20 years ago and now are (like e.g. those fishing rods amd harnesses).

And just like dante have said and I also mentioned it in one of the last comments, it is not about we would have permanent "youngster revolution" now. It's just that those young skaters have those devices and training methods at disposal, while the older generation haven't. This state is temporary as with any new step. Sooner or later the quads will be much more usual in ladies skating (if rules won't spoil that somehow) and I don't think that those teen skaters who are about to "dominate" now will lose their jumps and then lose competitions to the next generation. Things will settle down soon.

Theoretically, if the minimum age were raised to 18, you'd have coaches trying to have their students peak at 18 and not 15 or 16. That's just a few years, but that's when women usually undergo big changes to their bodies. What that might mean is that you'd have skaters training elements they'll be able to do after puberty, since they'd want to compete as seniors at 18 (or older). I don't necessarily think that's a good idea, but I do think it would drastically change how students are coached at a young age.

Mathman · Oct 8, 2019

flanker said:
Aaand, why now? All those ladies who are and were given as an example of maturity and all now, started senior competitions at the age of 15/16, some even earlier when the rules allowed it. Including Carolina Kostner, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Tara Lipinski and so on...

I do not have a stake in this debate. But taking the long view, I do think that the Code of Points judging system ushered in a new epoch in figure skating that is just now coming into clear focus.

From the beginning of international skating contests, figure skating was a man's sport. Who was best at the manly art of tracing precise geometric figures on the ice?

In the late 1920s Sonja Henie appeared on the scene and changed figure skating into a woman's sport. Who looked the the prettiest and most graceful?

Up to 2002 skaters like Michelle Kwan were regarded as "jumping beans" when they first started out. After a year or two or three they started skating more like ladies and began winning world championships.

With the IJS, it has become more and more clear that, for all the lip service paid to PCSs, GOEs and non-jump elements, the bottom line is -- base value, base value, base value. Do harder jumps than anyone else and the world will be chasing you. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada (first year in seniors) did a bunch of triple Axels on the Grand Prix and beat the entire upcoming Olympic podium (Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya), though Mao was too young to skate in the actual Olympics.

If it turns out that 13- and 14-year olds can do more quads than anyone else, then we have entered a third historical era. First a man's sport, then a woman's sport, now a children's sport.

I pass no judgments. Just an observation of what seems to me to be reality.

Amei · Oct 8, 2019

VenusHalley said:
But just because girl can jump quads at 12 does not mean she is mentally ready to be competing with adults, be out there...

Look at what happened to Oksana Baiul. Sure, she could skate so pretty and outskate adults, but she should be with her however incomplete family, not in the big big world, at her age. And now imagine 12 years old could compete with adults, because they can jump them quads and do pretzel spins. Could they all handle the pressure, the criticism, the adult world?

Way to cherry pick a skater that had a really hard childhood (unrelated to figure skating) as your example of mental unreadiness; meanwhile we can look at people like Tara Lipinski who holds the record for youngest World champion that appears to have grown up without any of the drama/issues that Baiul has had.

Decoder · Oct 8, 2019

andromache said:
Why are we making this about nationalism and specific countries? I honestly do not care about that. Are there people who do? Sure. But I'm not sure why you're quoting my post about it.

You raised the issue of minimum age limit, and people have various thoughts and concerns. flanker's analysis (#1290) is very valid, and samkrut (#1295) is adding another point (the possible change in FS landscape) to it, all related to the issue you raised. I would be happy if people quote my post directly!

Decoder · Oct 8, 2019

dante said:
The 15-16-year-old skaters have been winning the last few years not because they were younger, but because each of them is objectively stronger and better prepared than the precedessors. After the technical revolution ends and the PCS factor is adjusted, one will need both quads and artistry to win.

As for health, the square-cube law means that learning difficult elements is safer at younger ages.

"After the technical revolution ends and the PCS factor is adjusted, one will need both quads and artistry to win."
Yes, this is called development, although the actual process/steps might be different. However, raising the minimum age does not help.

skatergurl7 · Oct 8, 2019

Decoder said:
"After the technical revolution ends and the PCS factor is adjusted, one will need both quads and artistry to win."
Yes, this is called development, although the actual process/steps might be different. However, raising the minimum age does not help.

This is why I think barring injury, Sasha will be in for a rude awakening if she doesn’t work on her PCS once kamila turns senior. Kamila’s got it all: beautiful flexibility, spins, presence, and quads.

Decoder · Oct 8, 2019

skatergurl7 said:
This is why I think barring injury, Sasha will be in for a rude awakening if she doesn’t work on her PCS once kamila turns senior. Kamila’s got it all: beautiful flexibility, spins, presence, and quads.

Sasha will be fine, Eteri will take good care of her!

el henry · Oct 8, 2019

Happy Skates said:
There is risk of injury when training triples, or quads at an older age, etc. Plus, younger girls will still train difficult elements even if they're not old enough to compete in Seniors. I mean look at Liu, Trusova, Shcherbakova, Valieva, Akatieva. All of them trained these difficult elements way before being eligible for seniors. An age limit wouldn't stop them. Plus, I find it immoral to limit someone who's competitive with the best in the world from competing at worlds and the Olympics. And I'm not talking about anyone specific, but there have definitely been 15 year olds who are deserving of winning World or Olympic titles. You can't rob someone of that opportunity if they are competitive at that moment in my opinion. Plus, they/their families put so much money into this sport, so delaying the time to getting prize money may drive deserving skaters out of the sport too early. Not everyone can afford to continue the sport into adulthood without the opportunity to earn prize money like that. If they're able to earn prize money, at least they'll be able to afford the hip surgery when they need it, where as if they can't, they might be left with injuries and no titles, money or success to come of it.

Thank you for answering directly, but I am afraid I am not convinced by many of these arguments.

1. Young athletes should be allowed to compete, and compete with jumps such as quads, because the sport is expensive. Unfortunately, the sport is expensive, in the US at least there is no dedicated funding. It is still not worth a young athlete's health :shrug:

It would be immoral to allow them to continue competing if their health were at risk, in my opinion. Rushing to "get it over with" makes no sense to me.

Some of the concerns for young female athletes (and I acknowledge the proposal appears to affect ladies the most, as men, pairs and ice dance have older competitors) are summarized in this article:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/138/2/e20160922#T1

2. Athletes get injured.
Of course they do. All the time, unfortunately. Not a reason to avoid health based protocols, or implementing standards based on health.

3. Athletes will practice anyway.
It is true, no one can force someone to follow good health guidelines. An athlete may ignore the concussion protocol. Does that mean we shouldn't have one? I submit that is not a reason for keeping the age limit.

I don't know that many of us will agree on whether age should be raised due to health. Like @Mathman, I don't have a stake in this argument as far as skaters are concerned. I follow the ladies less than any other discipline and the junior ladies least of all. But I think it is a discussion worth having.

Happy Skates · Oct 9, 2019

el henry said:
Thank you for answering directly, but I am afraid I am not convinced by many of these arguments.

1. Young athletes should be allowed to compete, and compete with jumps such as quads, because the sport is expensive. Unfortunately, the sport is expensive, in the US at least there is no dedicated funding. It is still not worth a young athlete's health It would be immoral to allow them to continue competing if their health were at risk, in my opinion. Rushing to "get it over with" makes no sense to me.

Some of the concerns for young female athletes (and I acknowledge the proposal appears to affect ladies the most, as men, pairs and ice dance have older competitors) are summarized in this article:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/138/2/e20160922#T1

2. Athletes get injured.
Of course they do. All the time, unfortunately. Not a reason to avoid health based protocols, or implementing standards based on health.

3. Athletes will practice anyway.
It is true, no one can force someone to follow good health guidelines. An athlete may ignore the concussion protocol. Does that mean we shouldn't have one? I submit that is not a reason for keeping the age limit.

I don't know that many of us will agree on whether age should be raised due to health. Like @Mathman, I don't have a stake in this argument as far as skaters are concerned. I follow the ladies less than any other discipline and the junior ladies least of all. But I think it is a discussion worth having.

Raising the age limit is not a "health based protocol" though, because it won't affect health in my opinion. And skaters won't "practice anyway". They'll compete these skills anyways, as they already do. Which makes the proposition useless, if the whole point was to discourage them from doing quads to keep them healthy. Do you think Trusova wouldn't do quads if she still had to compete in juniors? I know you compare that to "ignoring the concussion protocol" but its not the same thing, because doing quads in juniors isn't ignoring anything in the rules you've proposed. All you've proposed is to raise the age limit. And you say that athletes still doing quads is not a reason to keep the age limit, which I never meant it to be. But it makes "health" not a reason to raise the age limit. I listed several reasons not to raise it though, which you deemed less important than health. And I understand that, except for the fact that raising the age limit wouldn't preserve health at all. The only way to really decrease number of juniors training quads is to ban them from competing it (which I'm not arguing for, but that would be a whole separate discussion). That would be analogous to a concussion protocol as you brought up. But simply raising the age limit is not.

Sugar Coated · Oct 9, 2019

I mean, gymnastics has raised age limits for health reasons. I'm not saying I agree with it, but there is definitely precedent for sports making these kind of decisions. I don't know if there is enough evidence about the long term effects on bone growth but then we should be researching how to combat/manage these effects as its hard to prevent girls from training. My fear is mostly that prepubescent girls have a physical advantage. Therefore there is incentive to delay puberty by whatever means necessary - through overtraining, caloric restriction, hormonal interventions, etc. That becomes harder to do if the age is increased. I don't like the idea of 17 year old girls starving themselves to remain competitive with 15-year-olds who may be lucky to naturally not have hit puberty yet or have had it artificially delayed.

flanker · Oct 9, 2019

Mathman said:
I do not have a stake in this debate. But taking the long view, I do think that the Code of Points judging system ushered in a new epoch in figure skating that is just now coming into clear focus.

From the beginning of international skating contests, figure skating was a man's sport. Who was best at the manly art of tracing precise geometric figures on the ice?

In the late 1920s Sonja Henie appeared on the scene and changed figure skating into a woman's sport. Who looked the the prettiest and most graceful?

Up to 2002 skaters like Michelle Kwan were regarded as "jumping beans" when they first started out. After a year or two or three they started skating more like ladies and began winning world championships.

With the IJS, it has become more and more clear that, for all the lip service paid to PCSs, GOEs and non-jump elements, the bottom line is -- base value, base value, base value. Do harder jumps than anyone else and the world will be chasing you. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada (first year in seniors) did a bunch of triple Axels on the Grand Prix and beat the entire upcoming Olympic podium (Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya), though Mao was too young to skate in the actual Olympics.

If it turns out that 13- and 14-year olds can do more quads than anyone else, then we have entered a third historical era. First a man's sport, then a woman's sport, now a children's sport.

I pass no judgments. Just an observation of what seems to me to be reality.

Well, Sonja Henie was 14 when she won worlds for the first time, and 15, when she won olympic games. So it's not much a change :biggrin:

And there were others, Michelle Kwan won worlds for the first time at 15, Tara Lipinski at 14, Elaine Zayak won gold at 17, Katarina Witt was silver at 16 and so on. As I say, it is not new situation at all what we are witnessing now, it was here through the whole era of figure skating and the fact that people have many famous names in mind as mature and seasoned women doesn't mean that they weren't skating at the highest level (and get medalled) even before. Yes, there were opposite examples but I bet that Butyrskaya, who is the oldest lady that ever won world championship (29), is much more rare than the opposite. I think its much about rotation of eras. Every time when something new appears (new attitude, training methods etc.), it is naturally applied on the newcommers and they then have some advantage. But than the rest adapts and the situation becomes balanced again. It's like in nature.

BTW see the number of people eagerly watching for Aliona's senior debut, just for her "mature skating". And she is 16. Preserving "maturity" for people over 18 regardless anything else seems too short-sighted to me. When I remember last worlds, there were many skaters over 18 whose skating seemed "juniorish" to me, while some of the others, whose age was below 18, skated with character and emotions beyond their years (or beyond what people expect from such young people).

samkrut@mail.ru · Oct 9, 2019

andromache said:
Why are we making this about nationalism and specific countries? I honestly do not care about that. Are there people who do? Sure. But I'm not sure why you're quoting my post about it.

Why? It's because I believe that within 5 years there will be a multitude of Russian quadsters older than 18. And with such all these conversation and ideas about raising the age limit will "magically" stop. Let's come back to it then if we are still around.

Georgya · Oct 9, 2019

[email protected] said:
Why? It's because I believe that within 5 years there will be a multitude of Russian quadsters older than 18. And with such all these conversation and ideas about raising the age limit will "magically" stop. Let's come back to it then if we are still around.

This reminds me of this wave going on among mostly american fans to get rid of two per country rule in the all around and apparatus finals in gymnastics. Now that they have so many good gymnasts they forget that this rule was pushed the most by the US Fed after 2000 Olympics when Roumania swept the podium in the all around. Then the americans were about diversity and a chance for the other countries to push forward in this sport, now they say it's not fair for their gymnasts.

P.S. Some people are seriously concerned, many of them just want their favourites to win or the ones they dislike to stop winning so much

)

Alex65 · Oct 9, 2019

Sugar Coated said:
I mean, gymnastics has raised age limits for health reasons. I'm not saying I agree with it, but there is definitely precedent for sports making these kind of decisions. I don't know if there is enough evidence about the long term effects on bone growth but then we should be researching how to combat/manage these effects as its hard to prevent girls from training. My fear is mostly that prepubescent girls have a physical advantage. Therefore there is incentive to delay puberty by whatever means necessary - through overtraining, caloric restriction, hormonal interventions, etc. That becomes harder to do if the age is increased. I don't like the idea of 17 year old girls starving themselves to remain competitive with 15-year-olds who may be lucky to naturally not have hit puberty yet or have had it artificially delayed.

This is not true at all. Increasing requirements for the age of athletes were made after a series of scandals with falsification of the age of sportsmen from some Asian countries. Health issues
there was none at all. In addition, an increase in age did not actually occur - a fixation was made for the age of 16 at the time of the competition. That is, if you apply the same formula for FS, it will postpone for six months the beginning of an adult career for girls born at the beginning of the year, and will bring closer those who were born in the second half.
Added: Kim from North Korea won the gold of the world in 91 at 11 (!) Years presumably. The investigation failed to establish her date of birth. But the medal was not taken away from her.

Blacknight · Oct 9, 2019

flanker said:
All those "low-key" allusions that "someone should do something about it" is completely stupid to me. It's like saying that a sprinter shouldn't run 100m below 10 s because it would discouradge the others or high jumper shouldn't be allowed to jump over a certain height etc. This is called development, if people like that would be running sports we would be still at the levels we were 30/50/100 years ago. High achievements should inspire and encouradge and I think they did in the past. And I agree that pretty big part of the problem some people have with that this progress came from the fact that the those revolutionary athletes are from a country some don't want to be friendly with.

As for the body talks. Sorry, but there is a reason why certain body types excell at certain branches of sport (or other physical activities like ballet). If there was basketball in the Middle Earth, I bet of all the races dwarves wouldn't the most succesful generally (there can be exception but exception is not a rule). And nobody talks like "I wanna see 'men of average height' being more succesful in it so stop training six-footers". To be honest, in men's figure skating you can also observe that top skaters changed through time. Yuzu or Nathan are certainly quite different types than Pluschenko was in his times, yet no one complains that he wanna see "more curvy men". It's just completely stupid idea.

It already works, ladies cant jump quads in sp. If you know that it disturb smb from rusfed or ISU? They could easy change it in last ISU congress. But no! Nobody said even one word about this stupid rule. No cospiracy? With zagitova rule it was very fast) And with PCS for reputation and all this goe corrections.. now they have possibility devaluate even 4 quads.ISU wants play a leading role in the podium placement.

samkrut@mail.ru · Oct 9, 2019

Blacknight said:
It already works, ladies cant jump quads in sp. If you know that it disturb smb from rusfed or ISU? They could easy change it in last ISU congress. But no! Nobody said even one word about this stupid rule. No cospiracy? With zagitova rule it was very fast) And with PCS for reputation and all this goe corrections.. now they have possibility devaluate even 4 quads.ISU wants play a leading role in the podium placement.

I think that quads in SP is a question of time.

Pcs and goe can be manipulated only to some extent. I have no idea but based on how it went in Lombardia I assume that it was a serious conversation with judges after the short program. May be because the outcry about injustice was so loud. And Anna was judged quite differently after that.

I believe that with JO content and clean landings Trusova will make 170 during the season, something like 101+69. And with such a score for the free program she will be OK even without quads in SP.

el henry · Oct 9, 2019

Georgya said:
This reminds me of this wave going on among mostly american fans to get rid of two per country rule in the all around and apparatus finals in gymnastics. Now that they have so many good gymnasts they forget that this rule was pushed the most by the US Fed after 2000 Olympics when Roumania swept the podium in the all around. Then the americans were about diversity and a chance for the other countries to push forward in this sport, now they say it's not fair for their gymnasts.

P.S. Some people are seriously concerned, many of them just want their favourites to win or the ones they dislike to stop winning so much )

Could you please tell me who you are talking about when you say “some people”?

If you are referring to my posts, I would take the opportunity to respond, as I believe the statement is incorrect. But with a “some people” statement, I cannot tell.

Thank you.

moriel · Oct 9, 2019

Happy Skates said:
Raising the age limit is not a "health based protocol" though, because it won't affect health in my opinion. And skaters won't "practice anyway". They'll compete these skills anyways, as they already do. Which makes the proposition useless, if the whole point was to discourage them from doing quads to keep them healthy. Do you think Trusova wouldn't do quads if she still had to compete in juniors? I know you compare that to "ignoring the concussion protocol" but its not the same thing, because doing quads in juniors isn't ignoring anything in the rules you've proposed. All you've proposed is to raise the age limit. And you say that athletes still doing quads is not a reason to keep the age limit, which I never meant it to be. But it makes "health" not a reason to raise the age limit. I listed several reasons not to raise it though, which you deemed less important than health. And I understand that, except for the fact that raising the age limit wouldn't preserve health at all. The only way to really decrease number of juniors training quads is to ban them from competing it (which I'm not arguing for, but that would be a whole separate discussion). That would be analogous to a concussion protocol as you brought up. But simply raising the age limit is not.

THIS
Trusova and Scherbakova did quads as juniors, they didn't wait to start doing them as seniors.
Same for Lyu and Valieva.
Same for all the 10-11-12 years old who are practicing 3As and Quads.

Right now, being a junior does not protect one from training quads and 3As. So why people expect that, for some reason, keeping those kids in junior longer will suddenly stop them from training those elements?
Because there still would be competition, and they still would need to learn them really early (I mean, come on, if Mishin says that it is more of an exception for a skater to be able to learn those elements after puberty, there may be some truth in it).

But no, keeping skaters in juniors suddenly protects them from quads.

I don't know, for me, raising age limit would have a negative impact on health, since it would force athletes to compete for longer, which is undoubtfully bad for their health.

andromache · Oct 9, 2019

Mathman said:
If it turns out that 13- and 14-year olds can do more quads than anyone else, then we have entered a third historical era. First a man's sport, then a woman's sport, now a children's sport.

I pass no judgments. Just an observation of what seems to me to be reality.

My problem is that I do not think children should be elite, Olympic-level athletes. Children should absolutely do sports! They can even train intensively for junior competitions and to prepare themselves for a successful career once they have turned 18 and are considered an adult in the majority of the world.

Others such as flanker have disagreed and have said there is no reason to change the age limit. But I think the age limit should change to allow children to be children. Leave the stress of elite sports to adults.

All this other discussion about artistry, health, etc. has no bearing on my opinion here. A sport in which children are the best is a children's sport, and a "children's sport" should not be considered an elite sport. Elite athletes have the full-time job of being elite athletes. Children should not have full-time jobs.

Women and the Quad

colormyworld240

drivingmissdaisy

Mathman

Amei

Decoder

Decoder

skatergurl7

Decoder

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Happy Skates

Sugar Coated

flanker

[email protected]

Medalist

Georgya

Alex65

Blacknight

[email protected]

Medalist

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

moriel

andromache

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